Kop needs urgent redevelopment

[ChipButtyBlade]

I just googled four poles and one cup, the resulting video really captured the spirit of the kop, us plebs thrive in the filth and depravity, leave it as it is

Have you googled "four candles"

 

[nopigfansintown]

You make a very compelling case for a complete upgrade. There is never a good time to do it, even if we did have the will, and the money. With perfect hindsight, the best time to do it was during the Covid shutdown.
Now we will have to close down the most iconic and memorable part of the ground, when we eventually get around to it.
What Levy did at Spurs was amazing, and he gave up the whole ground while club games were played at Wembley the best part of two seasons!
The Lane needs to give up the present Kop for only one season, based on the delays and planning requirements for the Tottenham Stadium. It is still a big move necessary for the most devout supporters to be inconvenienced for that time.
If it’s worth doing, it’s worth doing properly.

If the club gets a new owner, the real test of his honesty, would be the same approach to the Kop rebuild, as Levy had during the construction of a new stadium. Risk upsetting the most important and vociferous fans, to provide time and loss of revenue and support for the whole thing to be built properly! Do it once, and get it right. Just shifting the mound of rubble under the old Kop will probably take most of the close season, IMHO.

I think McCabe's plan allowed the stand to remain open. The South Stand plan too.. The danger is that when it is done (an inevitabillity imo) that the nature and essence of the kop will be lost - for matters of cost and expediency. A different roof and a two tier structure would change things dramatically. Those that want the Kop to remain as close to it is now (such as the OP) are ironically those that should be pushing hardest for incremental changes such as the removal of the poles, new concourse facilities, new turnstiles on JS and SS, and safe standing imo. The more the club sinks into the existing structure the less chance we have of seeing a total/partial rebuild imo. The more the Kop remains the same the higher the chance of a huge structural change at some stage.

 

[Charlieblade]

If true, then the sensible approach would be to almost do it last.
The South Stand should always be the priority, it would give us the higher ROI through corporate boxes and seats which could be added. Those additional seats would then reduce the impact of closing the Kop.
Personally I think it's third in line, behind the Bramall Lane stand, and I sit on Shoreham.

Sensible comment, but we both know the whole ground needs to be re-built. The biggest, most important and hardest job will be the Kop. I just think the rest of the ground can wait. I do see the reasoning behind your plan, I just think the hardest job should be tackled first. The rest will seem like a piece of cake after that.

 

[georgebernardshaw]

American Express ??

That’ll do nicely, sir

 

[Greasy Chap Butty]

You make a very compelling case for a complete upgrade. There is never a good time to do it, even if we did have the will, and the money. With perfect hindsight, the best time to do it was during the Covid shutdown.
Now we will have to close down the most iconic and memorable part of the ground, when we eventually get around to it.
What Levy did at Spurs was amazing, and he gave up the whole ground while club games were played at Wembley the best part of two seasons!
The Lane needs to give up the present Kop for only one season, based on the delays and planning requirements for the Tottenham Stadium. It is still a big move necessary for the most devout supporters to be inconvenienced for that time.
If it’s worth doing, it’s worth doing properly.

If the club gets a new owner, the real test of his honesty, would be the same approach to the Kop rebuild, as Levy had during the construction of a new stadium. Risk upsetting the most important and vociferous fans, to provide time and loss of revenue and support for the whole thing to be built properly! Do it once, and get it right. Just shifting the mound of rubble under the old Kop will probably take most of the close season, IMHO.

I'd rather live with it as it is then it be closed for a season.
I'd suggest roof and pillars could be done closed season.
An improved concourse, linking to the new roof the next closed season.

 

[South Sea Blade]

The ground improvement debate will unfortunately always linger on because our ground isn't good enough anymore for the club grow and compete in the Premier League, as we would all hope. My take is this:

The Kop is obviously the biggest problem which needs addressing ASAP. Poor viewing angles, poles obstructing the view, insufficient legroom, outside concourse, poor toilets and food facilities, the majority of entrances/exits being at the back more or less forcing everybody in one direction - these are all major issues, some of which could even force the closure of the entire stand in time.

What it really needs is demolishing and a brand new stand building in its place. However, apart from the high cost of doing this there will be a lot of knock-on issues if we did go down this route. The stand would be closed for 18 months minimum - where are the 7000-8000 season ticket holders who currently sit on the Kop going to go? We just haven't got the spare capacity to place them all elsewhere.

The better solution would be to add an extra tier to the South Stand (using the current plans) which would enable an extra 6000 seats to be added to the capacity whilst not disrupting the existing match day experience. It would also provide space to place the current Kop season ticket holders when the Kop redevelopment finally takes place (as it must at sometime). There would be additional benefits such as increased hospitality revenue and, unlike the Kop, these plans look impressive.

Once this is completed then the demolition of the kop could commence. The current plans for the Kop though are a joke and do not address many of the problems we, as fans, or the safety officers currently face.

The perfect solution (in my opinion) would be to extend the South Stand lower tier all the way around to meet the John Street side, include rail seating plans (if possible) and use a cantilever design just like the South Stand currently has. this would allow for extending the South Stand upper tier around in the same way along Shoreham Street, should that be necessary in the future.

The final result looking similar to St. James Park for those confused by my description.

Will this happen......probably not....but it should be the plan. The new owner (whoever that will be) should do everything possible to gain control of those 2 pockets of land stolen by McCabe, so that United can submit plans which will be both impressive and address all safety and supporter issues.

The cost involved......tens of millions which can only be achieved by Premier League football, and even then we would have to try and survive on the cheap for a couple of seasons, which generally doesn't happen. I'm not surprised that the Prince wants out as he can see the problems ahead if we do go up.....and if we don't.

 

[Charlieblade]

I'd rather live with it as it is then it be closed for a season.
I'd suggest roof and pillars could be done closed season.
An improved concourse, linking to the new roof the next closed season.

Not sure that could be done given the amount of rubble under the Kop now. Why risk damage to a new expensive roof, just keep the Kop open for a season?
Yes, I do realise how important the current Kop season ticket holders are. The Kop needs dragging into this century facilities wise, even if they prefer to rough it. A season in BLUT will learn ‘em.

 

[NuddysGloves]

The ground improvement debate will unfortunately always linger on because our ground isn't good enough anymore for the club grow and compete in the Premier League, as we would all hope. My take is this:

The Kop is obviously the biggest problem which needs addressing ASAP. Poor viewing angles, poles obstructing the view, insufficient legroom, outside concourse, poor toilets and food facilities, the majority of entrances/exits being at the back more or less forcing everybody in one direction - these are all major issues, some of which could even force the closure of the entire stand in time.

What it really needs is demolishing and a brand new stand building in its place. However, apart from the high cost of doing this there will be a lot of knock-on issues if we did go down this route. The stand would be closed for 18 months minimum - where are the 7000-8000 season ticket holders who currently sit on the Kop going to go? We just haven't got the spare capacity to place them all elsewhere.

The better solution would be to add an extra tier to the South Stand (using the current plans) which would enable an extra 6000 seats to be added to the capacity whilst not disrupting the existing match day experience. It would also provide space to place the current Kop season ticket holders when the Kop redevelopment finally takes place (as it must at sometime). There would be additional benefits such as increased hospitality revenue and, unlike the Kop, these plans look impressive.

Once this is completed then the demolition of the kop could commence. The current plans for the Kop though are a joke and do not address many of the problems we, as fans, or the safety officers currently face.

The perfect solution (in my opinion) would be to extend the South Stand lower tier all the way around to meet the John Street side, include rail seating plans (if possible) and use a cantilever design just like the South Stand currently has. this would allow for extending the South Stand upper tier around in the same way along Shoreham Street, should that be necessary in the future.

The final result looking similar to St. James Park for those confused by my description.

Will this happen......probably not....but it should be the plan. The new owner (whoever that will be) should do everything possible to gain control of those 2 pockets of land stolen by McCabe, so that United can submit plans which will be both impressive and address all safety and supporter issues.

The cost involved......tens of millions which can only be achieved by Premier League football, and even then we would have to try and survive on the cheap for a couple of seasons, which generally doesn't happen. I'm not surprised that the Prince wants out as he can see the problems ahead if we do go up.....and if we don't.

Agree with everything. However the only way of using the proposed new seats in the SS to accommodate the Kop season ticket holders would be for the Kop work to start as soon as the SS is ready. Otherwise people will start buying season tickets in the new available second tier seats and if we sold 3000 more season tickets there (source: number plucked from thin air) then we suddenly don't have the room to accommodate the Kop ticket holders and are back to square one.

I think it's highly unlikely that we'd ever be able to afford to do one straight after the other.

 

[South Sea Blade]

Agree with everything. However the only way of using the proposed new seats in the SS to accommodate the Kop season ticket holders would be for the Kop work to start as soon as the SS is ready. Otherwise people will start buying season tickets in the new available second tier seats and if we sold 3000 more season tickets there (source: number plucked from thin air) then we suddenly don't have the room to accommodate the Kop ticket holders and are back to square one.

I think it's highly unlikely that we'd ever be able to afford to do one straight after the other.

Yes, I agree.....however they could restrict the new area to general sale and existing season ticket holders to avoid this potential issue.

 

[NuddysGloves]

Yes, I agree.....however they could restrict the new area to general sale and existing season ticket holders to avoid this potential issue.

Yeah but for how long? They'd want to maximise the ROI from the point the new seats are ready, why risk having some less attractive matches where 5000 of the new seats aren't sold when they could guarantee 3000 season ticket holders there every match?

 

[jt64]

What it really needs is demolishing and a brand new stand building in its place. However, apart from the high cost of doing this there will be a lot of knock-on issues if we did go down this route. The stand would be closed for 18 months minimum - where are the 7000-8000 season ticket holders who currently sit on the Kop going to go? We just haven't got the spare capacity to place them all elsewhere.

The cost involved......tens of millions which can only be achieved by Premier League football, and even then we would have to try and survive on the cheap for a couple of seasons, which generally doesn't happen. I'm not surprised that the Prince wants out as he can see the problems ahead if we do go up.....and if we don't.

Clipping to two points I wanted to address - second one first, I'm fine with 10-15% of the projected PL revenue if promoted to be ringfenced for Kop redevelopment. It's an embarrassing shithole, bolting seats onto a terrace didn't work in the mid 90's and it still doesn't work 30 years later. Get it done the first time it's financially viable.

In terms of the first point as to where current STH's would go, that seems to be the biggest issue if we work on the assumption that Kop will be redeveloped at some point. I don't think it's completely unworkable - I don't know what the BLUT holds, but that would certainly house some percentage of it. Either that, or away fans could be moved up there, home gets lower, but they don't get the full stand - net it off, away gets 1500 or so while we retain the Westfield and some percentage of the BLUT. Reduced away allocation while the capacity of the stadium is limited is fair game. For the remainder, I would have thought some construction plan which allowed for temporary seating to be thrown up at the Kop end while the rebuild is taking place is not completely unfeasible. Work out when you want to do it, ask the PL to give us an away game to end the season and two to start the next one, whichever league we're in the next season 1-2 to start the season with. Have seen this happen before with some club that was rebuilding over the summer. That gives a near four month window to demolish existing Kop, clear wreckage, then do whatever works make sense that would allow for something like 20-25 rows to be opened - either as it would be in the finished new Kop or some sort of temporary solution, and continue building the remainder of the stand behind. I'm no project manager but I would have that would not be an unrealistic ask?

 

[Greasy Chap Butty]

Not sure that could be done given the amount of rubble under the Kop now. Why risk damage to a new expensive roof, just keep the Kop open for a season?
Yes, I do realise how important the current Kop season ticket holders are. The Kop needs dragging into this century facilities wise, even if they prefer to rough it. A season in BLUT will learn ‘em.

It depends what we are trying to achieve.
Day-day issues are pillars, and possibly toilets. Flashy concourse etc are all good stuff, but overall how much does it add to matchday.
The situation would have to be much worse to close for a season , for me personally.

I think a roof swap could be done without a major stand demolition.

 

[Booker4]

Hopefully we go up, the new owner or the Prince will address the Kop asap, but realistically will be done only if we stay up in the first season. We had a golden chance under Covid but then we were obviously going down!

We managed to do a rebuild in the pre-season last time out, probably that was due to the simplistic nature of the existing Kop, whereas the next one will undoubtedly be more complex partly due to the nature of no pillars which obviously will be more complex but it's not rocket science either. Maybe the best option would be to commence part way through the first season if it looks like we have a chance of staying up, hopefully like the first season last time out but that seems a long shot. I'd be in favour of demolishing the existing and having an entire new stand with a steeper rake and an extra 20 rows or so. A bit like what my favourite German team have: Kaiserslautern.

 

[Bell4]

Because it is not up to modern safety standards for a start if it came to it could it be evacuated in a few minutes? I don't think so sit in the middle behind the goal like I do and it can take 10mins to get out whether I go up and over or down and to the sides.

I sit in the middle / back
Of the family stand and I am often one of the last out of the stand at the end of a game

 

[Harry's Game]

When it was built in 1991 Reg Brealey said “it’s not an ideal solution but it will get us us around the Taylor Report for the next 5 years but then we will need to replace it with new structure“.

31 years later it’s more or less unchanged And showing its age ….
….. However

We cant afford to replace, it unless the new owner is a genuine Billionaire, so I still think the best option is to go back and implement the McCabe retro fit design that we still have planning permission for that extended the rear and finally covered the concourse.

 

[Charlieblade]

I do have some sympathy with the Kop diehards. My first seasons were spent there when the ground only had 3 sides. (Ball boys earnt their pennies in those days.

Sooner or later we will all have to move with the times. The only alternative is a bowl on a new site. Unthinkable for me.

 

[JayGreen17]

No buddy, it’s a shell, not a stand…..it needs completely rebuilding

 

[nopigfansintown]

There are three ways to fund such a development

Have a wealthy benefactor owner who’s in it for the long term.

Have a sustained period in the PL.

Borrow the money and spend the next few years paying it off, meaning that our operating budget; our wage bill, would be one of the lowest in the championship (and then, in all likelihood, one of the mid range in L1) until it’s paid off.

United in my mind are at the stage where they need a wealtgy benefactor to kick on or even maintain our status. Controversial I know. The academy, kop issues, stadium development and other factors can only realistically be remedied via this means. Our rivals aren't sleeping, even though we can forget this such is the mutual fixation of the two big Sheffield teams on each other. It's a sad indictment of modern football.

 

[Sheffsteel]

It needs flattening, new modern stand built but we're skint so forget about it

I keep hearing the call to flatten the site and "do it properly".

In an ideal world I agree but it's not an ideal world.
Flattening a site would be really expensive and there would be several negatives.

Most clubs would choose NOT to flatten a site and if possible build on land behind a stand.
Take Liverpool as an example
The have drastically expanded their Anfield Road away end stand by building on the back of it, so capacity is not affected and no inconvenience to fans.

The old bolt-on McCabe plans were the best value for money business related plans.
They gave the club and fans 90% of what we required for a relatively small amount of money, the only issue was the rake and leg room.

However not sure of the McCabe plans would be suitable now. The future for stadium expansion might revolve around "safe standing".
At present the plan is a 1 to 1 ratio however if successful it's highly possible we could eventually follow Germany and implement a 1 to 1.5 ratio
or even 1 to 1.8 ration, which is the max in Germany. So capacities might increase in the same area.

The old McCabe plans meant increasing Kop capacity from 10.2K to 13.5K
However imagine if Sheff United had permission to implement safe standing and were allowed to have 20K on the McCabe plan Kop?
The problem would be the concourse, toilets, kiosk, exits wouldn't be big enough to accommodate 20K.
So wouldn't it be better to implement a plan to take into account that 1 day we might be allowed to have 20K stood on the Kop?

Note: Another viable option is mentioned above.
Build the 5.4K stand behind South stand first and we could also have a 3K temporary mini stand at the Kop end.
This would mean there would be a minimal loss of capacity whilst the total Kop rebuild is done, still think this would be very expensive though.

 

[blade too long]

we need to redevelop it, by clearing the mound its built on then utilise all the space under it,
we are missing out on thousands of square footage that could generate extra income

Villa managed to get rid of a similar heap and rebuild it in 8 months

they are also planning going to 60k seats with a new enclosed training pitch under the new stand glass extension

could improve our training facilities and get a new stasnd with a bit of planning

 

[Sheffsteel]

You make a very compelling case for a complete upgrade. There is never a good time to do it, even if we did have the will, and the money. With perfect hindsight, the best time to do it was during the Covid shutdown.
Now we will have to close down the most iconic and memorable part of the ground, when we eventually get around to it.
What Levy did at Spurs was amazing, and he gave up the whole ground while club games were played at Wembley the best part of two seasons!
The Lane needs to give up the present Kop for only one season, based on the delays and planning requirements for the Tottenham Stadium. It is still a big move necessary for the most devout supporters to be inconvenienced for that time.
If it’s worth doing, it’s worth doing properly.

If the club gets a new owner, the real test of his honesty, would be the same approach to the Kop rebuild, as Levy had during the construction of a new stadium. Risk upsetting the most important and vociferous fans, to provide time and loss of revenue and support for the whole thing to be built properly! Do it once, and get it right. Just shifting the mound of rubble under the old Kop will probably take most of the close season, IMHO.

There is a big difference between the Spurs situation and the Sheff Utd situation.

Spurs fans were forced to move but they were all guaranteed to continue seeing their club during building works.
Where as the Sheff Utd home capacity would reduce from 29K down to less than 19K.

We have over 22K season ticket holders.
So how do we tell 3K season ticket holders they are basically banned from BL for 2 years, that is one hell of a sacrifice. The problem is once these season tickets holders have broke the habit and found other things to do on a Saturday, it's not a given they will return to paying for season tickets again.

One could suggest a rota so all season ticket holders take it in turns to miss mathces
but you know how contrary some people are....if you've not missed a home match for 30 years then you aren't going to accept taking your turn to miss games.
Some people will no doubt be so dissatisfied they'll call it a day and stop going ESPECIALLY as these days it's so easy to watch our games on TV.

 

[S64 Blade]

As pointed out earlier, a big issue is moving the 8k plus season ticket holders from the kop, elsewhere.

I wonder if the very bottom section of the kop could remain open (say 2k seats?) whilst the rebuild goes on behind. Then demolish the bottom part and rebuild for the last part. That would be incredibly complicated and expensive, however (especially in terms of access/safety).

Could there be a temporary stand added between the corner of the Kop and South stand to accommodate a couple of thousand (doesn’t seem large enough though)?

Whatever happens, I think it’s a lesson in not doing things on the cheap. If the Kop had been rebuilt properly, it’d be much easier to extend/rebuild it.

 

[JayGreen17]

Knock it down start again and play at pride park for 2-3 seasons.

 

[blade too long]

There is a big difference between the Spurs situation and the Sheff Utd situation.

Spurs fans were forced to move but they were all guaranteed to continue seeing their club during building works.
Where as the Sheff Utd home capacity would reduce from 29K down to less than 19K.

We have over 22K season ticket holders.
So how do we tell 3K season ticket holders they are basically banned from BL for 2 years, that is one hell of a sacrifice. The problem is once these season tickets holders have broke the habit and found other things to do on a Saturday, it's not a given they will return to paying for season tickets again.

One could suggest a rota so all season ticket holders take it in turns to miss mathces
but you know how contrary some people are....if you've not missed a home match for 30 years then you aren't going to accept taking your turn to miss games.
Some people will no doubt be so dissatisfied they'll call it a day and stop going.

come on we put up with no john street stand for nearly 4 years
fulham have just put up with it for 18 months

charlton are going all out for a 39000 seat improvement ,,, upgrade or die

 

[nopigfansintown]

 

[BushBlade]

It's a sad indictment of modern football.

I don’t think it’s an indictment of modern football. It’s always been the case that clubs with more money are more successful, tend to have better stadiums etc. It’s been that way since Herbert Chapman was called the chequebook manager, arguably even before when Arsenal built Highbury, and exacerbated after WW2 with the abolition of the maximum wage and the rise of televised football. The key is in the name; professional football. If it’s a sad indictment of anything, it’s of Sheffield and it’s consistent refusal to look beyond its borders and act progressively. This goes right back to when professional leagues were formed and Sheffielders considered professionalism to be in some way morally wrong. It’s that attitude of “we know better” that is responsible for the decline of the City.

 

[nopigfansintown]

I don’t think it’s an indictment of modern football. It’s always been the case that clubs with more money are more successful, tend to have better stadiums etc. It’s been that way since Herbert Chapman was called the chequebook manager, arguably even before when Arsenal built Highbury, and exacerbated after WW2 with the abolition of the maximum wage and the rise of televised football. The key is in the name; professional football. If it’s a sad indictment of anything, it’s of Sheffield and it’s consistent refusal to look beyond its borders and act progressively. This goes right back to when professional leagues were formed and Sheffielders considered professionalism to be in some way morally wrong. It’s that attitude of “we know better” that is responsible for the decline of the City.

I agree with all that. But it now realistically takes a billionaire to run a football club in the top two divisions. The scale of wealth required is totally different and doesn't look like changing. The reason is simple: the footballers are taking all the money, much more than the game is generating. Essentially the game isn't a business unless you are one of a handful of clubs. It's a money pit that doesn't work on normal business principles. You need obscene wealth to run a competitive United - even in the Championship. United realistically need a benefactor to progress now. We are wanting to keep up with the Jones's in the transfer market and expand off the pitch. A McCabe or Prince type has no chance of even doing the former without massive overachievement. At the minute we are inflated with parachute cash. These are the sort of losses Champ teams are making: https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/sport/football/how-bristol-citys-384m-losses-6921841

 

[PaulHalfway]

If we have 21000 season ticket holders say and the kop is closed for a season for a total re build, all fans can still attend matches on the reduced capacity, obviously passive fans won’t be able to attend for a season but it’s a way forward

 

[S64 Blade]

If we have 21000 season ticket holders say and the kop is closed for a season for a total re build, all fans can still attend matches on the reduced capacity, obviously passive fans won’t be able to attend for a season but it’s a way forward

It’d mean no away fans though.

 

[BushBlade]

I agree with all that. But it now realistically takes a billionaire to run a football club in the top two divisions. The scale of wealth required is totally different and doesn't look like changing. The reason is simple: the footballers are taking all the money, much more than the game is generating. Essentially the game isn't a business unless you are one of a handful of clubs. It's a money pit that doesn't work on normal business principles. You need obscene wealth to run a competitive United - even in the Championship. United realistically need a benefactor to progress now. We are wanting to keep up with the Jones's in the transfer market and expand off the pitch. A McCabe or Prince type has no chance of even doing the former without massive overachievement. At the minute we are inflated with parachute cash. These are the sort of losses Champ teams are making: https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/sport/football/how-bristol-citys-384m-losses-6921841

We need to be in the PL. We need to stay in there for long enough to develop some players and sell them for big money. That’s how other clubs make progress. And yes, we need someone who can invest, to get us there and keep us there. Not only do we need a benefactor but we need one with some common sense and a working understanding of football, because you’re quite right, there aren’t many businesses like football. Otherwise you just get a dickhead like Chansiri who piles money into a club and gets nowhere.

The bottom line is, with FFP, we will never in the foreseeable future catch up with the top 6. There’s a reason the top clubs spend all their money on players; to stop lower clubs catching them up. They use their money as a weapon. They keep putting up wages and transfer fees so that clubs that don’t have huge commercial income and don’t get the champions league income can never sign the players they need to compete with them. It’s a closed shop. You can’t get into the champions league without huge investment. You can’t invest hugely because of FFP. You can’t raise your global profile and generate huge commercial income without getting in the champions league. Leicester have shown that even winning the league only gives you a few seasons before you revert to type. We started falling behind in the seventies, you just can’t recover fifty years of failing to compete with the big clubs, bigger clubs than us have tried and failed.