Journeymen and Loans

[wardonia_blade]

The academy has done ok but needs supplementing with good recruitment rather than the over-reliance on journeymen and loan players, strategy that has held us back for years and has been disastrous since relegation from the prem.

Down the years the only successful ones I can think of are McCall, Cowans and Hatton (Jmen) and Rioch (loan - years ago). To me the rest have been a complete waste of money. Anybody I've missed??

We need to start again again (not a typo) next year with investment in a proper scouting network. Just about every team at the Lane this year has had a crop of home-growns who haven't looked any worse than Forte, Kitson, McMahon, Hill etc.

The better days at the Lane have been led by Jones, Birchenall, Badger, Woodward, Currie, Deane, Kelly, Brown, Jagielka, Walker, Kilgallon, Naughton. All either academy or good recruits. You know it makes sense, Kevin. Lets get started.

 

[stannyblade]

Hill has been one of the top 3 performers this season. (doesn't mean much I know)
Our club needs an overall from top to bottom. If the only loans we bring in are shit then the scouting team must be shit.

 

[JohnDenver]

Our club needs an overall from top to bottom.

It's a great chance to do that this summer. No more massive earners to offload - just the dad's army whose wages will give any new manager the chance to buy some decent Div1 performers.

The only downside is that our biggest earners (McDonald excluded) aren't our best players. That should never be allowed to be case, but it's a trick we specialise in.

 

[SE1Blade]

Down the years the only successful ones I can think of are McCall, Cowans and Hatton (Jmen) and Rioch (loan - years ago). To me the rest have been a complete waste of money. Anybody I've missed??

Agree with your broad point but from what I recall:
Good 'ageing journeyman' signings:
Neil Shipperley
Chief
Paul McGrath
Craig Short
David Kelly
Keith Curle
Terry Phelan
Andy Walker
Michel Vonk
Dean Saunders

Good loans:
Gary Cahill
Andy Reid
Matt Phillips

 

[Kev Gee]

Why dont we ever look at youngsters that have been released by the Prem clubs?
Theres been loads of quality young players who dont quite make it through at Man U, Chelsea, Liverpool, Villa. etc.

One recent star is Tom Ince at Blackpool. Released by Liverpool.

We should be on the phone to them now, asking for a list of young players unlikely to be offered fresh terms.
Get in there before anyone else ffs.

 

[Foxy]

Why dont we ever look at youngsters that have been released by the Prem clubs?
Theres been loads of quality young players who dont quite make it through at Man U, Chelsea, Liverpool, Villa. etc.

We do. It doesn't mean they are first team ready or will ever make it.

 

[super_pig]

they seem to do well at other clubs though. we only seem to identify the crap ones.. e.g Cofie

 

[Revolution]

This is just daft.

Some players signed at the twilight of their careers are going to contribute a lot (Gordon Cowans, Stuart McCall). Some are not (Phil Thompson, Gary Flitcroft).

Some young players are going to come in and make an impact (George Long, Jags, Michael Tonge) some are not (Ross Davidson, Colin cryan, Nick Montgomery)

Some loanees will be great (Bobby Davison, Matt Phillips) some won't (Forte, Poleon, Cofie, O'Halloran).

Where the players come from is not the key thing (though a good academy and scouting network helps). It's how good they are and how they fit in. Playing only young players is just cutting your nose off to spite your face if the young players aren't good enough.

 

[super_pig]

i'm convinced that they can't be any worse than the crap currently occupying the positions.. plus they can run

 

[Pinchy]

This is just daft.

Some players signed at the twilight of their careers are going to contribute a lot (Gordon Cowans, Stuart McCall). Some are not (Phil Thompson, Gary Flitcroft).

Some young players are going to come in and make an impact (George Long, Jags, Michael Tonge) some are not (Ross Davidson, Colin cryan, Nick Montgomery)

Some loanees will be great (Bobby Davison, Matt Phillips) some won't (Forte, Poleon, Cofie, O'Halloran).

Where the players come from is not the key thing (though a good academy and scouting network helps). It's how good they are and how they fit in. Playing only young players is just cutting your nose off to spite your face if the young players aren't good enough.

Precisely. I'm afraid far too many of our fans have an excess of enthusiasm for young boys.

 

[Pinchy]

i'm convinced that they can't be any worse than the crap currently occupying the positions.. plus they can run

Do you really think Ironside is more likely to score a vital goal than Kitson? Honestly?

 

[super_pig]

we don't need vital goals at the moment though Pinchy.. it's all settled bar the shouting for the next two games

 

[Revolution]

we don't need vital goals at the moment though Pinchy.. it's all settled bar the shouting for the next two games

No it isn't. the playoff placings are not settled.

United are unbeaten at home in playoff semi finals and have never won an away match in playoff semi finals. The team that is at home second has an advantage. I would like to be 3rd or 4th for this reason and I'm sure Morgan would too.

 

[super_pig]

not with our home record it isn't??

 

[Wards]

Personally rated Halford as my fave loanee.

 

[bladesadviser]

Loans are fine if they come for a season in August. This means they are part of the team part of the tactics and arguably no different to player on a one year contract with us.

 

[Darren]

No it isn't. the playoff placings are not settled.

United are unbeaten at home in playoff semi finals and have never won an away match in playoff semi finals. The team that is at home second has an advantage. I would like to be 3rd or 4th for this reason and I'm sure Morgan would too.

Apart from anything else if it goes to extra time, the team at home in the second leg gets it at their ground.

And for those who argue that our away form is better than our home form our last 3 home has seen one win one draw and one defeat. Exactly the same as our last three away (and the home games were against better teams).

 

[Bergen Blade]

There is a difference between loans who did well and loans who helped us achieve good things.

I agree Cahill and Reid did well for us, but in hindsight, seeing as we didn't achieve our aims those seasons, were their loans worthwhile?

 

[Revolution]

There is a difference between loans who did well and loans who helped us achieve good things.

I agree Cahill and Reid did well for us, but in hindsight, seeing as we didn't achieve our aims those seasons, were their loans worthwhile?

That's a silly argument. If you are correct, only people who were loaned in 2005-6 were worthwhile.

They were worthwhile at the time because they filled holes in the side and improved the team. Reid and Cahill certainly did this.

 

[JohnDenver]

That's a silly argument. If you are correct, only people who were loaned in 2005-6 were worthwhile.

They were worthwhile at the time because they filled holes in the side and improved the team. Reid and Cahill certainly did this.

It's not that silly. The argument is one of long vs short term planning. High risk gambles vs lower risk spending.

History shows we've not learned.

 

[Revolution]

It's not that silly. The argument is one of long vs short term planning. High risk gambles vs lower risk spending.

History shows we've not learned.

Well, look at it this way by way of an example: in 2009, Greg Halford was with us on a season long loan. I think most would agree he played well. He played a number of positions and made some vital contributions to winning games, giving us a crack at promotion. He scored the winner in the playoff semi, most notably, giving United a crack at the final.

By Bergen's evaluation, that wasn't a worthwhile loan signing because we failed to win promotion. I do not accept that.

 

[davidpinder]

I think it's obvious which direction we are heading next season. Most of next seasons starting 11 in league 1 are already there but half don't start at the moment.

These are the players i believe will leave in the summer :-

KITSON
DOYLE
ROBSON
McDONALD
LJF (he's shit it with injuries)
HOWARD
McMAHON
PORTER
WILLIAMS (is he still here?)
WESTLAKE
HIGGINBOTHAM
FORTE

Now that is a lot but i think most of the players that will start next season will be kids/youth of old. Players that will fill in are the gaps are.

MAGUIRE (only reason he hasn't gone is he is to slow)
COLLINS
FLYNN (pains me to put it)
MILLER
MURPHY
HILL
LONG (thats if we don't take 200K ish from a prem club)

It is obvious that the current bench warmers that are not getting many minutes will be expected to step up next season.

WHITEHOUSE
IRONSIDE
McFADZEAN
DIEGO DE GIROLAMO (i hope)
HARRIOTT
KENNEDY

Plus we will no doubt bring in a few and get the usual average/shite season long loan player(s).

If we get a playoff miracle then i fully expect this all to be different.

 

[Living In a Fantasy World]

Down the years the only successful ones I can think of are McCall, Cowans and Hatton (Jmen) and Rioch (loan - years ago). To me the rest have been a complete waste of money. Anybody I've missed??
Matt Phillips

Yes glad someone pointed him out, best loan player we've signed in recent times, ran rings around everyone in this league last season.

 

[JohnDenver]

By Bergen's evaluation, that wasn't a worthwhile loan signing because we failed to win promotion. I do not accept that.

Taken individually, it was a good loan. But if we look over a period of years and all loan signings, then measure the worth of our strategy by our league position, there's only one conclusion.

I think it's worth being harsh. Given the money we spent on Cahill and Reid, both were part of a failed strategy.

 

[Bergen Blade]

That's a silly argument. If you are correct, only people who were loaned in 2005-6 were worthwhile.

They were worthwhile at the time because they filled holes in the side and improved the team. Reid and Cahill certainly did this.

Kyle Bartley, Danny Batth, Marcus Bent, Jean Calve, Ritchie de Laet, Nyron Nosworthy, Sam Vokes, Richard Wright, Joe Mattock, Shane Lowry, Bjørn Helge Riise, Danny Philliskirk and Elian Parrino also plugged gaps in the fabulous relegation side of 2010/11. Looking back, yep, money well spent and something that still helps ease the pain.

 

[Revolution]

Kyle Bartley, Danny Batth, Marcus Bent, Jean Calve, Ritchie de Laet, Nyron Nosworthy, Sam Vokes, Richard Wright, Joe Mattock, Shane Lowry, Bjørn Helge Riise, Danny Philliskirk and Elian Parrino also plugged gaps in the fabulous relegation side of 2010/11. Looking back, yep, money well spent and something that still helps ease the pain.

That's a different point though. I agree 100% we have loaned too many players, and that is a bad thing - it is one of the reasons we went down.

But you didn't say that. You said loans were not worthwhile unless they achieved something. That's too rigid a concept for me.

Wednesday are certainly using the loan system to massive advantage over the last 2 years. if they had stuck their equivalent of Kennedy or Whitehouse in the side instead of Antonio et al, they wouldn't have won promotion last year or would be in the bottom 3 this year.

The key issue is that we are not identifying, or keeping, enough talented players, irrespective of where they are coming from.

 

[Bergen Blade]

That's a different point though. I agree 100% we have loaned too many players, and that is a bad thing - it is one of the reasons we went down.

But you didn't say that. You said loans were not worthwhile unless they achieved something. That's too rigid a concept for me.

In the season where we loaned Greg Halford we spent 110% of turnover on player wages. Halford's loan (at a speculated cost of £1m?) symbolised our ridiculous waste of money in the seasons after the Premiership relegation. We're still paying the price, as well as repeating the same mistakes, although at a lower level.

Having said that, I accept that part of the club's aim should be to entertain, and win individual (big) matches. If you look back at the play off semis that year with some fondness there is value in that. Another example would be Bobby Davison's contribution in 1991/92.