Is the way forwards via the DVS ?

[FleaPitBlade]

vorpal blade - were you involved in any part of BDTBL that was actually built?

 

[vorpal blade]

Not Guilty.

Though the idea of filling in between John Street and Bramall Lane with office space certainly was an idea of mine but I thought it should have been an L-shaped block, much thinner than was built which would have formed the back of curved seating in that corner, like this. (Not sure whose idea the Hotel was)

You see there are significantly few Football Stadia carried off with ANY elegance. Good design costs LESS not more.

To properly integrate these plans required a small amount of reconstruction of the ends of the existing adjacent stands, i.e. limited demolitions I think Carey Jones' schemes that were built were viewed as cheaper because they didn't demolish anything. But look how poorly the Kop/John Street corner that was built fits, (seats with no full view of the pitch for God's Sake!), you have to demolish the ends of the existing stands to make the geometry of the rakes of seating work. The capacity could have been upped by digging the pitch down a bit (in theory, Bramall Lane is already low down next to the River Sheaf and therefore a bit boggy)

 

[Hartley Hare]

A bit of red paint and this would be fine;

The old Shannocks stand.

HH

 

[SwissBlade]

metalblade despite you getting slagged off on here you've opened up a good discussion. However...

DVS is and never will be the home of the blades. The location is all wrong for us and to be perfectly honest that's as far as we should take it.

Bramall lane is and always will be home and I personally see no reason why the lane cannot continue to be that home.

The problem over the past few years is that clubs have moved grounds either to cash in on the real estate, because their ground is beyond development or because their owner wants too much cash. Sunderland had Roker park which was a small dump, they've now got a huge, lovely new stadium which for a while they filled. Rotherham have a shiny new ground but they had to move.

Our current stadium has some issues but I'd say that apart from some cosmetic changes the ground functions well and whilst you think it looks shabby, it's a lot better than the pig sty, Elland road, dingle arena or the DVS. All of whom sit in a division above.

Bramall lanes issue is probably parking and transport if we want to get picky. If the ground capacity grew to 42,000 or in fact we got 30k plus attendances on a regular basis then we have a real issue. Never mind extending BL over the road, never mind sticking a concourse in behind the kop, double tiering the South Stand or radically rotating the pitch 90 degrees. Getting parked or getting public transport to the lane is the issue.

Super tram should run close to the lane, buses will need to increase and parking will be required. I suppose this then becomes your only argument for a move to the DVS.

But is this a concern now? Not really. We're a minimum of two seasons off the premier league, then perhaps 3-4 off extending the kop, so attendances and ground extensions are not really likely to be a worry for 5 years minimum.

So small minded thinking maybe, but you're also ignoring the local community. SUFC have worked hard with the Sharrow community over the years which I think is important. I'd like to see the club working more with the community, the local pubs shops and restaurants for example because these places also make the match day experience more pleasurable. What does any new stadium in the country have around it? Acres of parking, soulless streets and pretty much feck all else, unless you count retail parks and supermarkets.

Brentford was a great day out last season, but they want to move grounds. I spoke with some of their fans and they all want the move. But they will lose the soul of their club.

Football grounds are about the soul of the club built up over many years, they're part of the landscape. Stadia are generally soulless

I want to keep the remaining soul of my football club.

 

[grafikhaus]

But look how poorly the Kop/John Street corner that was built fits, (seats with no full view of the pitch for God's Sake!)

Quite. How they got away with that mal-functioning eyesore has always baffled me.

Some good points raised here though and speculating about sizes of crowds on our return to the Premier certainly beats thinking about the dross that will turn up in the coming season.

I actually drew an isometric of the Bramall Lane stand going over the road as part of my Technical Drawing 'O' Level in 1971. Most of that side of Bramall Lane was bought up years ago under Compulsory Purchase as the Council were considering widening the road a la Penistone Road and as a possible route for Supertram. Then they remembered it was United and promptly abandoned these schemes.

Latest I heard was that one of the Hinchcliffe clan owns the Cricketers (and Railway) so any future expansion plans will have to factor in enormous compensation to these McCabe-lites.

 

[vorpal blade]

Grafikhaus, the architects who took the job from me though more commercially astute, probably didn't think* about the geometry of the rake of the stand at the Kop/John Street corner carefully enough. There were people at the firm who would have been able to design it properly but to save money, I believe they only used 'technicians' that is to say NOT architects who have different (more) design ability (or certainly should have).

The direct answer to 'How they got away with that', is that the client trusted the architects and possibly didn't check the drawings before it was built. They should have used an intermediary. I had been disposed of, and was not around anymore.

*it is possible that they did know how to match the geometries smoothly, but because of the demolition involved that I referred to above, SUFC didn't fancy it?

(whoa, I think I have to watch my step a bit, I have edited my initial response)

 

[ScoobBlade]

Move the pitch closer to the main stand, paint the steelwork red and it would look great, that would keep most of the League One crowd under cover while we build new stands on the other three sides. Enough room to hold 60,000 eventually.

I'm not sure why you think united need room for 60,000 fans, at the moment we can't fill what we've got

 

[Linz]

The other issue with the DVS is that the rake of the stands is too shallow. Could you really charge £400+ for a season ticket when someone at 5'6" can't see the pitch when sat behind someone who's 5'10"?

 

[vorpal blade]

Yep. Back in 1996, Sheffield Council, tried to get us to consider Don Valley. Again, architects not good enough, I believe it was designed by the Council Architects themselves. It looks too damned windswept to me.

Only way to make it work as a football ground would be to completely rebuild it as the stands aren't good enough, so its basically as good as a vacant building site, therefore it makes no sense to go there.

 

[metalblade]

The other issue with the DVS is that the rake of the stands is too shallow. Could you really charge £400+ for a season ticket when someone at 5'6" can't see the pitch when sat behind someone who's 5'10"?

Just like the present Kop then

Yep. Back in 1996, Sheffield Council, tried to get us to consider Don Valley. Again, architects not good enough, I believe it was designed by the Council Architects themselves. It looks too damned windswept to me.

Only way to make it work as a football ground would be to completely rebuild it as the stands aren't good enough, so its basically as good as a vacant building site, therefore it makes no sense to go there.

At least we would have a clean slate to start from, I do agree about the corners of Bramall Lane they could have and should have been designed and constructed much better, they look exactly what they are "cheap add on's" which to me have ruined the look of the lane.

I'm not sure why you think united need room for 60,000 fans, at the moment we can't fill what we've got

I don't know where I said we needed room for 60,000 at the moment, but if one day we should be established as a top half of the Premiership team that might be the sort of capacity needed to keep us competitive especially if and when the TV revenue dries up.



This day and age there should be no restricted view seats like in the kop corner and even the Westfield corner is a joke the way it goes no where near to joining the south stand, offices in the other corner laughable that anyone believes they will bring money into the club. When you look at it without being all sentimental the lane is a complete fuck up of a ground where nothing quite fits right.

 

[SwissBlade]

Just like the present Kop then


At least we would have a clean slate to start from, I do agree about the corners of Bramall Lane they could have and should have been designed and constructed much better, they look exactly what they are "cheap add on's" which to me have ruined the look of the lane.

I don't know where I said we needed room for 60,000 at the moment, but if one day we should be established as a top half of the Premiership team that might be the sort of capacity needed to keep us competitive especially if and when the TV revenue dries up.



This day and age there should be no restricted view seats like in the kop corner and even the Westfield corner is a joke the way it goes no where near to joining the south stand, offices in the other corner laughable that anyone believes they will bring money into the club. When you look at it without being all sentimental the lane is a complete fuck up of a ground where nothing quite fits right.

I know that you dislike the club but I love the lane. It's got character and soul as I said.

I really wouldn't want us to be in a 60,000 capacity ground just to be competitive. I want to enjoy the football matches I attend. To that end it really doesn't matter what division were in... But right now I'd be happy to be at the upper end of the championship where were getting decent attendances and playing decent football.

 

[metalblade]

I know that you dislike the club but I love the lane. It's got character and soul as I said.

I really wouldn't want us to be in a 60,000 capacity ground just to be competitive. I want to enjoy the football matches I attend. To that end it really doesn't matter what division were in... But right now I'd be happy to be at the upper end of the championship where were getting decent attendances and playing decent football.

I don't dislike the club, just the owner and the way it is run. I understand all this about character and soul but to me these were thrown away bit by bit when we started building offices and hotels in the corners both of which the club does not own or make a penny from, next it will be student flats, don't forget either we don't own even the grass we play on and have to pay whoever owns it rent as they see fit, how long before the rent is more than a league one club can afford ??? All good if you are Premiership Man City with mega rich backers, but we will never have mega rich investors. McCabe will keep the ground until he either gets his money back or until he forces us out to redevelop the site.

 

[SwissBlade]

I don't dislike the club, just the owner and the way it is run. I understand all this about character and soul but to me these were thrown away bit by bit when we started building offices and hotels in the corners both of which the club does not own or make a penny from, next it will be student flats, don't forget either we don't own even the grass we play on and have to pay whoever owns it rent as they see fit, how long before the rent is more than a league one club can afford ??? All good if you are Premiership Man City with mega rich backers, but we will never have mega rich investors. McCabe will keep the ground until he either gets his money back or until he forces us out to redevelop the site.

So what the last 4 pages has really been about was having a dig at McCabe!

 

[Linz]

The requirement for a big ground in the Premiership isn't exactly a cut and dry argument. It isn't a case of "build it and they will come"... a case in point, Wigan's average attendances of around 18000 in a 25000 seater stadium.

 

[metalblade]

Wigan LMAO a team with absolutely no pedigree, wasn't even a league team until being voted in by default as their ground met league standards in 1978, a ground shared with egg chasers and bank rolled by Dave Whelan. Located close to Manchester little wonder they can't attract fans, should have stuck to watching the egg chasers.

 

[ponteblade]

I wish mccabe would go, but thats it, no moving or merging, just a buyer with the club at heart with loads of dosh to waste, a nice dream!

 

[SwissBlade]

Wigan LMAO a team with absolutely no pedigree, wasn't even a league team until being voted in by default as their ground met league standards in 1978, a ground shared with egg chasers and bank rolled by Dave Whelan. Located close to Manchester little wonder they can't attract fans, should have stuck to watching the egg chasers.

Or perhaps it's just not the case that everyone wants to watch premiership football...

 

[blade too long]

Everyone is forgetting we no longer own Bramall lane or the Academy, .

again making statements that have no foundation,
its just stashed away in a holding company to protect it, no mystery about it
its still part of sufc plc , the line we dont own is purely made up by the conspiracy theorists and wednesday fans , hard to seperate which is which

 

[raul]

What danger was it in where it was?

 

[blade too long]

getting taxed too heavy on it, teams like chelsea , man utd liverpool their grounds are in holding company names, we will have our reasons for following suit

plc,s move assets around like dominoes, different fiscal management deals to ,avoid taxation, no not avoid, best manage the assets ,,, to use a Mandaric quote for his asset movement

 

[raul]

What tax were we paying on it? What are we paying now? What are our reasons for following suit?

 

[metalblade]

What tax were we paying on it? What are we paying now? What are our reasons for following suit?

The reason McCabe has done it is so that BTL can talk shit once more rather than accept McCabe has taken the club from being mid Championship with very little debt to league one with a massive near £50m debt and no worthwhile assets either in bricks and mortar or players.

 

[blade too long]

The reason McCabe has done it is so that BTL can talk shit once more rather than accept McCabe has taken the club from being mid Championship with very little debt to league one with a massive near £50m debt and no worthwhile assets either in bricks and mortar or players.

not me talking shit , you are saying mcabe who owns sufc , has stolen bramall lane , from himself
hes robbed himself, cracking theory

name me a club thats not in debt by the way havent the pigs just
admitted losing 5 m a year, in the championship, are you not aware of the bank crisis that befell all of europe

 

[metalblade]

Where were we when McCabe became the owner of SUFC ? WHERE ARE WE NOW ?
Keep on posting your obscure stats to say we are slightly better than the pigs BTL Whoo fuckin Hooo ................. and you believe you don't talk shit LMFAO

 

[blade too long]

Where were we when McCabe became the owner of SUFC ? WHERE ARE WE NOW ?

we are in league ones top 6, hopefully a temporary haitus, been here before though,, only thing is if ched hadnt got sent down and we had gone up youd still be calling mccabe, and when we do go up , which we will soon might still be under mccabe,
I try and be fair , not demand the death penalty for making mistakes, or calling mccabe a thief just because players didnt perform. We are not in league one because of mccabe , but because players let us down , noticeably at wembley

Did mccabe miss a penalty , dont think so

 

[Sirius]

There are for,s and against,s to every argument, my main objection to DVS is its location, theres very few drinking establishments around it and I cant walk to Ecclesall or London Road for pre game or post match apperitifs.

Apart from the corner pin , which holds around 30 people , we are struggling to get in the mood

If and when I come on over, it will be BDTBL or nowt. This is not code , but I would go with Father Thompson, if that means owt to O.P. and the rest

 

[Ted Danson]

I don't dislike the club, just the owner and the way it is run. I understand all this about character and soul but to me these were thrown away bit by bit when we started building offices and hotels in the corners both of which the club does not own or make a penny from, next it will be student flats, don't forget either we don't own even the grass we play on and have to pay whoever owns it rent as they see fit, how long before the rent is more than a league one club can afford ??? All good if you are Premiership Man City with mega rich backers, but we will never have mega rich investors. McCabe will keep the ground until he either gets his money back or until he forces us out to redevelop the site.

Is Bramall lane really prime real estate? seems to me theres shit loads of land to develop on round there so why would the area where our ground sits be worth so much for redevelopment? Most of the things round there are completely run down too

 

[metalblade]

Is Bramall lane really prime real estate? seems to me theres shit loads of land to develop on round there so why would the area where our ground sits be worth so much for redevelopment? Most of the things round there are completely run down too

Trust me it is worth a fortune I worked very close to Bramall lane for two different companies both are gone now replaced by student accommodation, only The Sportsman survived the property developers. The area may well increase in value when the new markets are up and running down the Moor.

 

[Ted Danson]

Trust me it is worth a fortune I worked very close to Bramall lane for two different companies both are gone now replaced by student accommodation, only The Sportsman survived the property developers. The area may well increase in value when the new markets are up and running down the Moor.

Thats my point though, that area of prime real estate has taken years to be redeveloped and still hasnt been if it ever will be. That really is in a prime location yet still not been done.

Also as you mentioned companies have been moving out of that area as its not very desirable and doesnt have passing trade as such. Developers have already built enough student accommodation to cater for the demand down there so cant see anyone else building more.

The houses down there must only be worth between 50 -100K so no cash cow there either.

Wouldnt it cost millions just to demolish Bramall Lane whereas Im sure there is other land nearby that hasnt got a whacking great stadium built on it?

If we did move to DVS Id imagine that Bramall lane would lie derelict for decades and McCabe would get pretty much naff all from it anyway

 

[blade too long]

Trust me it is worth a fortune I worked very close to Bramall lane for two different companies both are gone now replaced by student accommodation, .

Its worth no more than the old remploy site, God could make a killing selling off st marys church as well, theres the old razor blade factory one street back , that would be less hassle to redevelop, this mccabe wants to redevelop bramall lane as real estaste is as big a load of codswallop as Ive ever heard, which kindergarden playground did you hear it in