Investment update!

[beightonblade]

what a fookin joke ................. anybody know owt about the freehold ?

I wish i knew how i cud gi sumbody a fiver for a tenner and they would thank me !

 

[alcoblade]

Whatever people's views on where "the money" has gone, the fact is it has gone. Hopefully our various business interests will give fruit in coming years, but right now we have a £50M debt to service.

Bob is spot on, talking about transfer fees in isolation in today's game where Championship clubs like us can have wage bill's approaching £20M, is nothing short of bollocks.

I can understand people disagreeing with how we've spent the money, I can't understand the ongoing complaining about why we aren't spending more.

UTB

 

[lenners]

Bob, your problem is that you've had spectacular difficulty dealing with the facts of Evans transfer but insist to everyone you now know the facts of all the signing on fees.
You are stating as fact that we've paid £2m to Simmo and Britton on top of their wages to play for us.
That seems a little unlikely to me.

 

[Bladesway]

So what you are saying is that it is ok for you to guess at figures for Paddy and Billy and yet I'm not allowed to mention the signing on fees. I'm not changing facts, it just that you don't have anything to argue against them. I've given you what I believe to be accurate information, if you disagree try and pull them apart, rather than your fingers in your ears la a la al I can't here you, I'm right and you're wrong argument. Surely you would like to be convinced otherwise, or is it more important to be right?

You refusing to look at the obvious facts that we can only sustain a £6-9 Million wage bill with our current turnover and yet last seasons was over £14 Million. The season before it was close to £15 Million. I'm sure that £5-6 Million shortfall per year is just covered elsewhere magically.

You talk about the West Ham money but what do you think sustained this shortfall or supported the £20 Million plus wage bill in our first 2 and a bit seasons following relegation? What supported those, the parachute payments?

Last season we had a £14 Million wage bill which had to be trimmed down so that we could cover it with our income. Naysmith on £17K a week was a no brainer but that would only bring it down by 900K where would you get the other reductions from to bring it in line? If you don't bring it in line what are you going to do to cover it?

Finally the fact that you think Simmo and Britton didn't command large signing on fees just shows your lack of understanding of these matters. Do you really think they were going to turn down Premiership offers in order for the honour to play for Sheffield United?

You don't want to look at the figures next year for these signings because you know they will prove you wrong, but we have spent more than £2 Million in this close season on new players. That's not a guess its a fact, why not turn up to the next meet the manager/fans forum and ask the question yourself. The combined signing on fee's for Britton, Ertl, Simmonsen, Bogdanovic plus loan fees for Bartley and Nos would of been considerably more than a bean. I'll refer you to your original comment;

That is quite obviously bollocks. 6 players in none of which wanted anything other than wages, your weak argument isn't standing up too well to scrutiny.


A handy bit of number work there that our ex-manager has been peddling. Ignoring loan fees, and the inflated wage bill which he was allowed for 2 seasons in which he failed.
Why do people talk about transfer fees, wage bills and loan fees as separate pots, they all need to balance.
I'd love to see that £15 Million actually broken down, I'd bet when real fees such as loans and the inflated wage bill within which he was allowed to work were taken into account that profit isn't quite so healthy.

You know what Bob, I never looked at it that way and your quite obviously right. Now I hope you will sleep better tonight knowing there is another convert to your way of thinking.

Any chance of a signed picture?

---------- Post added at 02:53 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:50 PM ----------

Bob, your problem is that you've had spectacular difficulty dealing with the facts of Evans transfer but insist to everyone you now know the facts of all the signing on fees.
You are stating as fact that we've paid £2m to Simmo and Britton on top of their wages to play for us.
That seems a little unlikely to me.

Thing about Cheds transfer is it could be £1.5m or it could be £3m depending on which way the wind is blowing. If the chairman can't tell us the truth about that (it was £3m when we signed him I'm sure) then what else isn't he telling us the full facts of?

 

[Flatulent_Bob]

Bob, your problem is that you've had spectacular difficulty dealing with the facts of Evans transfer but insist to everyone you now know the facts of all the signing on fees.
You are stating as fact that we've paid £2m to Simmo and Britton on top of their wages to play for us.
That seems a little unlikely to me.

Ah Len, a little re-writting again on your part just in order to have something to say.
You said we had paid £3 Million up front for Evans, you made that quite clear and only started to change your tune when the figures didn't back it up.
I said he cost £1 Million, then £1.5 Million and then £2.1 Million as the argument continued over the months. Feel free to look back throughout the posts. This was at the same time you were saying we only got £8 Million for the Kyles, you were continually saying that we paid £3 Million for Ched. I said it was a considerably smaller down payment, you wouldn't have it.
I don't know why you bother Len, I'm sure everyone on here remembers it, just like some remember your comments about Wardy.

Please forgive me if I don't give too much weight to your opinion on these matters.


Bladesway - It's a shame you can't be bothered to argue your case, or at lease debate the points I made without spitting your dummy out. Maybe internet forums aren't for you if you can't handle reasoned debate. You've not even attempted to discuss one of the points I made before taking your ball home.

 

[lenners]

Ah Len, a little re-writting again on your part just in order to have something to say.
You said we had paid £3 Million up front for Evans, you made that quite clear and only started to change your tune when the figures didn't back it up.
I said he cost £1 Million, then £1.5 Million and then £2.1 Million as the argument continued over the months. Feel free to look back throughout the posts. This was at the same time you were saying we only got £8 Million for the Kyles, you were continually saying that we paid £3 Million for Ched. I said it was a considerably smaller down payment, you wouldn't have it.
I don't know why you bother Len, I'm sure everyone on here remembers it, just like some remember your comments about Wardy.

Please forgive me if I don't give too much weight to your opinion on these matters.


Bladesway - It's a shame you can't be bothered to argue your case, or at lease debate the points I made without spitting your dummy out. Maybe internet forums aren't for you if you can't handle reasoned debate. You've not even attempted to discuss one of the points I made before taking your ball home.

Bob, I think when you couldn't make your mind up whether Ched cost £1m, £1.5m or £2.1m and still haven't got it right you've pretty much outed yourself.
We did only get £8m for the Kyles and regardless of however many times you refer to something I didn't say, it isn't going to make it true.
But we'll look forward to the accounts and confirmation of the £2m signing on fees for Leon and Simmo.

 

[Flatulent_Bob]

Ched transfer fee was spread across his contract, as I've told you before. That's why the figure is increasing as time goes by, you said it was £3 Million upfront I said it wasn't.
Do you still stick to that Len that Ched cost £3 Million total upfront, or are you going to try and wriggle out of that one too?
You see the problem is your make such a song and dance over these things that they tend to stick in peoples mind, rather like your comments about Bartley.

The point about the Kyles is that you quote the lowest possible figure we will get for the Kyles while quoting the maximum amount for Ched. You didn't have the faith in your convictions to keep the data comparable, you had to try and fudge it in your favour.

You look for the account due out next year which will cover the signing on fees over this last summer, and I bet more than £2 Million is in that column.

 

[Micalijo]

Ched transfer fee was spread across his contract, as I've told you before. That's why the figure is increasing as time goes by, you said it was £3 Million upfront I said it wasn't.
Do you still stick to that Len that Ched cost £3 Million total upfront, or are you going to try and wriggle out of that one too?

The point about the Kyles is that you quote the lowest possible figure we will get for the Kyles while quoting the maximum amount for Ched. You didn't have the faith in your convictions to keep the data comparable, you had to try and fudge it in your favour.

You look for the account due out next year which will cover the signing on fees over this last summer, and I bet more than £2 Million is in that column.

Sorry Bob but that is not what Trevor said at the forum in April.

Circa 8 months after he had signed Trevor said we had paid £2.1m to City for Evans. You still have totally failed to acknowledge this, haven't you?

 

[raul]

I think the Klyes thing is more likely because we'll have said yes to Citeh's demands in a desire to appear "ambitious" but ceded to Tottenhams' in order to balance the books.

Hence, Len is right.

 

[lenners]

Bob, pretty much all transfer fees are paid in stages, that doesn't mean that a player only cost £1m of a £3m transfer fee because that was all that was received on day one.
Similarly, we probably didn't receive the £8m for the Kyles on day one. It's likely to be staged over two or three years.
This has been explained to you before.

 

[shorehamview]

Similarly, we probably didn't receive the £8m for the Kyles on day one. It's likely to be staged over two or three years.
.

Now I've not read much of this whole thread and don't really want to, but it strikes me that words such as "probably" and "likely" would indicate guesswork and speculation, rather than an argument anchored firmly in fact. As in "don't actually know for sure one way or the other"..

Just my ten bob's worth........

 

[mekkyblade]

Warnock's record with kids isn't the best. OK, he gave the likes of Jags a chance (and Moses at Palace) but in both cases he had little option. As soon as he had a bit of cash to spend, he would always bring an experienced pro in ahead of giving a kid a chance.

Granted Jim but if it works then why not? It got us into the top flight

 

[lenners]

Now I've not read much of this whole thread and don't really want to, but it strikes me that words such as "probably" and "likely" would indicate guesswork and speculation, rather than an argument anchored firmly in fact. As in "don't actually know for sure one way or the other"..

Just my ten bob's worth........

I think you've probably missed the point.

 

[shorehamview]

I think you've probably missed the point.

I've missed three quarters of this no doubt enthralling thread, but stating that we "probably" got £XXXX is akin to me stating that given a van, a shotgun, some rohypnol and a forty acre field I could "probably" shag Jennifer Aniston next Thursday amounts to pretty much the same thing. Or it's likely to, anyway.

 

[Flatulent_Bob]

Bob, pretty much all transfer fees are paid in stages, that doesn't mean that a player only cost £1m of a £3m transfer fee because that was all that was received on day one.
Similarly, we probably didn't receive the £8m for the Kyles on day one. It's likely to be staged over two or three years.
This has been explained to you before.

Len, you denied this and were insisting Ched cost us £3 Million upfront. You've now moved away from that stance as you did with Ward being a bad signing, and that the academy was a waste of money and should be disbanded.
Where do you now stand on Gibsons' sacking of Southgate. At the time it was an example of how a great chairman should behave, obviously compared with McCabe.

Sorry Bob but that is not what Trevor said at the forum in April.

Circa 8 months after he had signed Trevor said we had paid £2.1m to City for Evans. You still have totally failed to acknowledge this, haven't you?

Yep I have, when I said we'd paid £2 Million which had gone up from £1 Million to £1.5 to the £2 Million.

 

[lenners]

Len, you denied this and were insisting Ched cost us £3 Million upfront. You've now moved away from that stance as you did with Ward being a bad signing, and that the academy was a waste of money and should be disbanded.


Yep I have, when I said we'd paid £2 Million which had gone up from £1 Million to £1.5 to the £2 Million.

No Bob, I didn't deny it, I explained it to you then and again just now.
If we got say £4m of the Kyles money on day one but the remainder a year later it wouldn't mean that £4m was the transfer fee, until it became £8m 12 months on.
I'm not sure why you're finding this so hard to understand. You seem to have a mental block on differentiating between staged payments of a basic fee and potential add-ons.
So, I haven't moved away from any stance and Ward remains the sound, sensible signing I said he was and I remain completely unconvinced of the need to spend millions running an academy when you're simply going to sell your best young players asap to replace them with often expensive and/or lower quality loanees or transfers.

 

[Flatulent_Bob]

No Bob, I didn't deny it, I explained it to you then and again just now.
If we got say £4m of the Kyles money on day one but the remainder a year later it wouldn't mean that £4m was the transfer fee, until it became £8m 12 months on.
I'm not sure why you're finding this so hard to understand. You seem to have a mental block on differentiating between staged payments of a basic fee and potential add-ons.
So, I haven't moved away from any stance and Ward remains the sound, sensible signing I said he was and I remain completely unconvinced of the need to spend millions running an academy when you're simply going to sell your best young players asap to replace them with often expensive and/or lower quality loanees or transfers.

You claimed the academy wasn't producing anyone good enough and should be disbanded, nothing to do with selling them. This was well before the Kyles.

The Kyles transfer fee was £8 Million upfront rising to £11 Million plus sell on clauses. So why do you claim Ched is £3m and the Kyles £8M? I'm just asking for you to be consistent.

If you state £3 Million for Ched then its £11 for the Kyles. I understand the staged payments but you claimed Ched cost £3 Million on day one, and that isn't and wasn't the case we still haven't paid £3 Million for him.

You didn't say that about Wardy, you were moaning about signing mediocre players from the lower leagues.

Have you any more bullshit to peddle? The fact that you are having to make things up and back track does you no favours.
The problem is that folk remember you rants due to you being so willing to attack the club.

Do you still think Gibson removing Southgate while in the promotion places was an example to our board of how a good chairman operates?

 

[Bladesway]

Have you any more bullshit to peddle?

You see that is why people just shrug and say "meh" to you mostly. You can't convert so you have to get down in the playground and start going all potty mouth on everyone. Not your most endearing quality.

I would however like to pick up on Shorehams point on "facts". Unless we work directly for the club and are involved none of us know exactly what we pay and don't pay. The entire thing is based on speculation, claim and counter claim. I can't tell you directly what the staged payments are or how much they paid but soccerbase generally makes interesting reading. Heres a couple for you:-

Paddy Kenny : Sold £750k
Billy Sharp : Sold £1.1m

Ched Evans : Bought : £3m


Seems poor old Jenny is getting her back door broken in this evening after all.

 

[lenners]

You claimed the academy wasn't producing anyone good enough and should be disbanded, nothing to do with selling them. This was well before the Kyles.

The Kyles transfer fee was £8 Million upfront rising to £11 Million plus sell on clauses. So why do you claim Ched is £3m and the Kyles £8M? I'm just asking for you to be consistent.

If you state £3 Million for Ched then its £11 for the Kyles. I understand the staged payments but you claimed Ched cost £3 Million on day one, and that isn't and wasn't the case we still haven't paid £3 Million for him.

You didn't say that about Wardy, you were moaning about signing mediocre players from the lower leagues.

Have you any more bullshit to peddle? The fact that you are having to make things up and back track does you no favours.
The problem is that folk remember you rants due to you being so willing to attack the club.

Do you still think Gibson removing Southgate while in the promotion places was an example to our board of how a good chairman operates?

I absolutely still think Gibson is a good chairman, jeez we're not surely going to have to compare his achievements with Boro to ours or virtually every club of a similar size again, are we?
As regards Southgate, it was decisive action early in the season - something that seems to have happened not a million miles away from S2 a few weeks back.
Southgate has since become a media pundit.
The Kyles are £8m with potential add ons. The bulk of Ched's fee has been paid with only a small proportion add-ons, if any.
The accounts and McCabe's own comments back this up.
You know as well as anyone else that the main issue about Ched was the bizarre story put around by Radio Sheffield that he only somehow cost £750,000 - which was eagerly taken up by the usual suspects on here.
The reality with Ched is probably we pay something like £2.5m to £2.75m in straight fee, with one or two add ons - one of which we've probably now reached.
If you think that justifies the bizarre argument you're desperate to believe that he didn't cost £3m knock yourself out.
The main issue was that he was a big money buy and whether he's cost us £2.5m, £2.75m or £3m so far doesn't really matter.
And that's before you consider he will have been paid well over £1m in wages so far.
Of course, if you want to add in one of your 'well-known' signing on fees, who knows what the total outlay might be...
As for the academy, yes I said it was being a waste of money and was producing nothing - when it wasn't.
We've since produced two high quality players and sold them in the blink of an eye and find ourselves £50m in debt.
It's therefore still very arguable whether it's been worth shelling out millions on an academy when it's ultimately meant little overall difference to the performance of SUFC plc.
One alternative is picking up potential from the lower leagues, as we did with Ward, which is an entirely sensible way to go.
Scunthorpe do it year after year.
Hope that helps.

 

[Flatulent_Bob]

Its just a shame more of your posts are written as clearly Len, you actually answers the questions. Genuine thanks it makes it easy to debate the points.
Would you conceed/agree that things like the academy take time to produce results?
To expect us to be producing players straight away was unlikely because they hadn't come through the entire system from a young age. For me now is the time for the academy to produce consistently. Although I never had a problem with Reid's work Pembo is certainly a breath of fresh air with a totally different approach, certainly to discipline. While the disagreements between the academy and the first team management also seem to have be resolved with Pembo's appointment, where he does things his way regardless. Thankfully results seems to be pointing to the fact that Pembo's/Reids beliefs are correct, and the previous mangers weren't, which is good for the future of our club.

Final comment on the Ched thing, I never said he wouldn't cost us £3 Million just that he hadn't cost us that. That was at various times throughout his contract. I also think I have been quite clear that he has to perform this season to justify his wage and fee. So far for me he has been doing, for you I doubt he ever will.

You see that is why people just shrug and say "meh" to you mostly

Surely you can do better than that. It's been a while since I was in the schoolyard where popular perception had any effect on me. Nice attempt though but you'll have to try harder than that.