In Clough we trust?

[grafikhaus]

Broadly agree, but first you say...

... and yet there are still many, even now, trawling out the old lines of 'best squad in the division' 'biggest budget in the division' etc etc etc

and then you say...

but the squad we currently have is about the 5th or 6th best in the division,

We simply have not got the 5th or 6th best squad in the division. Regardless of the teams above us (probably nine or ten by teatime tonight) who, with half the season gone are patently better than us, what about Yeovil? Fleetwood? Chesterfield? Port Vale etc? All - currently - below us but have beaten us, comfortably.

I would argue that we are one of the worst squads in this division and it's certainly possible we could be embroiled in a relegation fight by April.

Back to NC and I totally understand the (misplaced) loyalty being shown to him, but it is misplaced. Warnock, though he continues to divide opinion, gave us some great memories and was, after Bassett and 'Sir' John Harris, always going to be a tough act to follow. In came Blackwell and - on the face of it - a success. But it was terrible stuff to watch and he bottled it at Wembley. Danny Wilson was always on to a loser. I didn't want him. Nothing to do with his Wendy connections (I'd take Nigel Pearson in a shot when Leicester get rid), but because his track record as a manager is shocking. Weir? Oh dear?

So in came Clough. At last, a 'name'! We warmed to him. We wanted it to succeed. But does his track record as a manager stand up to scrutiny? He seemed to have turned Derby around but look at them since he's left. His transfer activity is poor to say the least. His tactical ability is extremely poor as are his motivational qualities. He easily falls out with not just players but some managers - Steve Bruce and Steve McLaren to name two but probably Brendan Rogers as we were - reportedly - quoted over £1m for Coady and he went to 'udders for around £400k.. Like his father, like Ferguson, like Mourinho he 'doesn't suffer fools gladly' and it's 'my way or highway'. But of course, the others had the track records to play hardball and NC doesn't.

Tell you what. I'd love a genuinely hard manager next. Not one who bullies young players, but one who tells the board from day one what budget he expects, gets it in writing and sticks to it. Also has it written in his contract that he won't have the rug pulled from under him re. selling the best talent.

I can dream...

 

[Lord Bos of Eckington.]

Broadly agree, but first you say...


and then you say...



We simply have not got the 5th or 6th best squad in the division. Regardless of the teams above us (probably nine or ten by teatime tonight) who, with half the season gone are patently better than us, what about Yeovil? Fleetwood? Chesterfield? Port Vale etc? All - currently - below us but have beaten us, comfortably.

I would argue that we are one of the worst squads in this division and it's certainly possible we could be embroiled in a relegation fight by April.

Back to NC and I totally understand the (misplaced) loyalty being shown to him, but it is misplaced. Warnock, though he continues to divide opinion, gave us some great memories and was, after Bassett and 'Sir' John Harris, always going to be a tough act to follow. In came Blackwell and - on the face of it - a success. But it was terrible stuff to watch and he bottled it at Wembley. Danny Wilson was always on to a loser. I didn't want him. Nothing to do with his Wendy connections (I'd take Nigel Pearson in a shot when Leicester get rid), but because his track record as a manager is shocking. Weir? Oh dear?

So in came Clough. At last, a 'name'! We warmed to him. We wanted it to succeed. But does his track record as a manager stand up to scrutiny? He seemed to have turned Derby around but look at them since he's left. His transfer activity is poor to say the least. His tactical ability is extremely poor as are his motivational qualities. He easily falls out with not just players but some managers - Steve Bruce and Steve McLaren to name two but probably Brendan Rogers as we were - reportedly - quoted over £1m for Coady and he went to 'udders for around £400k.. Like his father, like Ferguson, like Mourinho he 'doesn't suffer fools gladly' and it's 'my way or highway'. But of course, the others had the track records to play hardball and NC doesn't.

Tell you what. I'd love a genuinely hard manager next. Not one who bullies young players, but one who tells the board from day one what budget he expects, gets it in writing and sticks to it. Also has it written in his contract that he won't have the rug pulled from under him re. selling the best talent.

I can dream...

January may be the month , if no real investment in new playing staff occurs , when Mr Clough starts rearranging the deck chairs on the titanic.

UTB

 

[Grappler]

I thought so as well.

To be fair to Clough I think he's seen a lot of the things that have been pointed out on here, and tried rectifying it. With the squad we've ended up with, it's been very hard for him to put things right though. Certain players have been huge disappointments, and others have struggled because our line ups have nearly always been lacking something to get the balance exactly right, partly due to injuries.

One thing that must be addressed in January is our lack of height and strength. We have a team of midgets and they are light weight too. Losing 6'4 Harry Maguire was a huge blow as he was great in both boxes. Collins was also decent in the air.

Stefan Scougall gets bullied every game and his teammates aren't the types to go over and make them think again. Doyle tries, but he's not an imposing figure and there should be others. When Basham was sent off yesterday, loads of Port Vale players surrounded the referee, while one of them (Duffy) blocked Doyle from getting a say, even pinching his ear as Doyle went after the ref. Our corner takers get criticised all the time, but it's hard to find teammates who are marked by bigger and stronger opponents.

I have been saying this for a long time, we need some height in the team, and not just in the back four, I remember the year that Stoke last played us at home in the Championship, the year they went up, they looked like a team of giants, I don't think anyone was under six feet two tall. And SWFC, when they played us at home and we drew 2-2, Reda Johnson, Chris O'Grady, Madine, Buxton, Semedo, Jones, Llera, etc., etc., all well over six foot, in fact they only had about three players under 6ft from memory. Our midfield averages 5ft 10 (Doyle, Murphy, J. Wallace, etc.), Scougall is 5ft 7, so is Flynn, Reed must be the same or less (although a great player) and JCR is a reported 5ft 3!! (surely taller than that). We rarely win balls in the air mid field, so we need to play it along the floor more.

I realise we can't change the whole team, but a few taller lads in the middle of the park would help.

 

[alcoblade]

I have been saying this for a long time, we need some height in the team, and not just in the back four, I remember the year that Stoke last played us at home in the Championship, the year they went up, they looked like a team of giants, I don't think anyone was under six feet two tall. And SWFC, when they played us at home and we drew 2-2, Reda Johnson, Chris O'Grady, Madine, Buxton, Semedo, Jones, Llera, etc., etc., all well over six foot, in fact they only had about three players under 6ft from memory. Our midfield averages 5ft 10 (Doyle, Murphy, J. Wallace, etc.), Scougall is 5ft 7, so is Flynn, Reed must be the same or less (although a great player) and JCR is a reported 5ft 3!! (surely taller than that). We rarely win balls in the air mid field, so we need to play it along the floor more.

I realise we can't change the whole team, but a few taller lads in the middle of the park would help.

Very true. We seem intent on out and out wing play, yet place no emphasis on the power, pace or physical prowess needed to make it successful.

UTB

 

[Fulwood Blade]

Very true. We seem intent on out and out wing play, yet place no emphasis on the power, pace or physical prowess needed to make it successful.

UTB

we do indeed appear to be dependent on wing play - NC appears to like that style - probably more suited to Championship than 1st division.

The problem is:

1) create a big team to get out of this division (as the s6) lot did - then have to change it quickly as D jones tried to do?
2) Try and create a football team to get out and be, in a certain way, ready for the Champ without major changes?

It's a dilemma and Clough would be dammed if he did and dammed if he doesn't.

UTB

 

[grafikhaus]

The problem is:

1) create a big team to get out of this division (as the s6) lot did - then have to change it quickly as D jones tried to do?
2) Try and create a football team to get out and be, in a certain way, ready for the Champ without major changes?

It's a dilemma and Clough would be dammed if he did and dammed if he doesn't.

UTB

The problem is, he's doing neither.

 

[alcoblade]

we do indeed appear to be dependent on wing play - NC appears to like that style - probably more suited to Championship than 1st division.

The problem is:

1) create a big team to get out of this division (as the s6) lot did - then have to change it quickly as D jones tried to do?
2) Try and create a football team to get out and be, in a certain way, ready for the Champ without major changes?

It's a dilemma and Clough would be dammed if he did and dammed if he doesn't.

UTB

All true, but it's the same for every manager of every team. All the decisions can be made by him, his hands aren't tied..

UTB

 

[Fulwood Blade]

The problem is, he's doing neither.

I think he is trying option 2 but it isn't quite working with the players he is picking.

For me, and have said it before is 2 big, butch, centre halves, a thug in centre midfield and let the front 5 footballers in front, in whatever formation they like, get the goals.

Reckon Scoogs/Baxter etc al would be good and positive if they didn't have to defend or be defensively minded.

UTB

 

[Grappler]

Very true. We seem intent on out and out wing play, yet place no emphasis on the power, pace or physical prowess needed to make it successful.

UTB

Big, strong, fast players are needed to get us out of League One, I was hoping that Higdon, Basham, etc., would be part of that solution.

 

[GRUMPY BLADE]

He's only available in the sense that he's not currently in a job.

Thought we'd got game changing investment?

Buy three division three players or one first class manager?

No brainer if you've got the cash.

 

[Hodgyman]

Pullis is available and is better than Clough

And so is Warnock now

 

[alcoblade]

And so is Warnock now

Forget winners, we need nice people.



UTB

 

[Tezza1889]

Well, this is a debate isn't it !!

Thing is we need to have a strategy as fans, do we as usual look at the results short term, say, over a season, and make a judgement based on how good we finish it..

Or do we take a stand now like liverpool did with Rogers and say, let's give him time to achieve without the pressure, that's no criticising, booing, or complaining, let the board judge him a failure, not us...


The real problem clough has is that he overachieved last season and raised all our expectations, this was swiftly followed by quite possibly the worst summer recruitment I have ever known from the club, weirs signings the previous year were fabulous by comparison, we were all happy with the weir signings when they arrived, forget how it turned out for the majority of them once nige arrived..

So we roll into january hoping to spend as we did last season, bring in a few flair players to breathe life into what is now a very timid group of players from now till the end of the season and go for a playoff place, take a chance to go up that way, you know, the cheap way in the sbort term...

I wanted us to just copy wolves's format last season, pay the players who wanted out the money they were worth and keep them we'd have, signed coady, and kept maguire, go for a striker, just the one not three, but one who was quality and pay the fee and wages, we are big enough to afford that surely, however we know what happened, it is the playoffs now,.we know that the top three won't drop enough points to let us in, we have seen the other teams in this league and they're pants and sadly giving us games and taking points off us as well...

Clough is a boring manager, playing a boring style of play, in the championship it'll work to consolidate us and that's it, we'll never pull any trees up and at this rate we won't get there any time soon... we need an influx of talent, like last january..

The board told us to think more "liverpool" than "man city"
Were they talking about us? Not the club?

 

[Hodgyman]

I have to confess, I am normally an optimist, always looking for positive signs in all things United but my own loyalty is starting to wear thin. I can only think of two games this season that I have seen where we have had a full 90 minutes of true effort, excitement and value for money. Doncaster away and Southamton home.

This year we have endured :
Certain players regularly unwilling to put a full shift in
a manager who has very poor man-management skills (example - criticising his own players in the media)
A manager that is too stubborn to realise that his team selections are poor & plays his favourites in place of the players who work 100% and get goals (and excite fans)
Playing a "containing" style of play at home games until we go behind
Poor player recruitment ,with certain exceptions ( Basham & McNulty). Others that cannot maintain match fitness

Let us hope that Cloughie's strange selections have been an attempt to put unwanted players in the shop window for the January sales and that it is them that go instead of selling the better players we have.

I am hoping that we can get a big improvement in recruitment, performances and results in the new year, with or (if need be) without Nigel.

My grandson's and my season ticket renewals depends on it. I do not consider myself as a "Glory Seeking Johnny Come Lately" supporter either, having supported and regularly watched United for over 55 years, mostly as a season ticket holder. My grandson has not bothered to attend the last 2 matches due to the lack of entertainment currently on offer.
My guess is that many others feel the same

 

[Come from away]

A couple of things to admit. Living in Canada I only go to a one or two games a year and watch most on video, so have not spent the time and money I used to when living in the UK - it's all less emotional for me. I never understood how we could do so badly to drop to League one in the first place, I thought then the players were good enough for us to stay up - so much for my judgement. Soccer is a game of margins, good teams with good players lose. How LVG managed such a poor record with Man U still amazes me. As to the Blades, we do have players with the ability to keep us in the top six. Our back 5 is as solid as most until you add McGahey - I would rather see Kennedy. Our mid-field has the talent but is not performing consistently - Scougall and Baxter in particular. It is clear that Clough thought Wallace would take over a key role, and getting him back or adding another in the JTW is key for me. I think we have a good prospect in COG but he needs a partner, and I don't see it at the club right now. We have a good support cast of forwards/wingers but again they are inconsistent which means it is not possible to have a stable team on a weekly basis, even allowing for the odd injury. I do want us out of this league but we should not pretend we are already a championship club who can attract top players from Premiership reserve teams. Generally I think Clough's assessments of games are fair and he cannot 'fix' the poor choices players make in the moment once they cross that line. In the end I think Clough will have us in the play-offs with a good chance of getting through, automatic would be a case of those margins falling our way. So, yes, in the end in Clough I trust.

 

[FleaPitBlade]

Far too easy to go pointing fingers at management when we're on a bad run.

The players need to have a look at themselves. They're FAR better than how theyre currently playing - collectivley and individually.

Play Saints off the park one week and roll over at Port Vale the next? Whatever the reasons for the Jeckyle and Hyde'ness its down to them.

 

[Jonboy60]

Far too easy to go pointing fingers at management when we're on a bad run.

The players need to have a look at themselves. They're FAR better than how theyre currently playing - collectivley and individually.

Play Saints off the park one week and roll over at Port Vale the next? Whatever the reasons for the Jeckyle and Hyde'ness its down to them.

Would help though presty if we kept a settled side, injuries/ suspensions apart, that's down to the manager.

 

[breeny]

I'll let you know at the end of Jan

 

[DSB-91]

Clough seems too cautious in his approach to the league. In cup games, he seems to be a bit more daring with his tactics and team selection. I think he wants to win cup games too, but he knows it's no disgrace to be knocked out by superior opposition and perhaps feels a bit less pressure. We've put on some amazing performances in the cups, some of the best I've ever seen.

In the league though we seem to set up to grind out wins. Grab a goal and see out the game. The problem is, we're not very good at it. We ship goals in the first half and either lose or scrape a draw.

Some of our cup performances make me think Clough's a great manager who can get a team to play well beyond the sum of it's parts. However, our inability to break down very average sides in the league suggests the opposite. The same players seem unable to reach their potential in one competition, then far exceed it in others. It's weird.

 

[blade too long]

QPR 0 Blades 3
Think that answers has he any idea on tactics argument

 

[Revolution]

QPR 0 Blades 3
Think that answers has he any idea on tactics argument

In Cups, yes. I am not in the least surprised we got something today. I have confidence in Clough in Cup games.

In the league - not so much.

 

[breeny]

Just start Mcnuts, please!

 

[blade too long]

Thing being we can set up to beat the better clubs .but are missing that nous to get round 11 parking the bus

 

[Hodgyman]

QPR 0 Blades 3
Think that answers has he any idea on tactics argument

The performances against Southampton, West Hamand QPR etc show that the squad have enough talent to walk this league. If only Nigel would play the same players and tactics in the league instead of his stubborn unwillingness to give regular fans value for money in the league.

 

[wizadry]

QPR 0 Blades 3
Think that answers has he any idea on tactics argument in the cup

Fixed it for you