If we'd got a decent striker to partner Billy...

[Shalalalafenoughty]

It seems Somme of our fans want us to massively overspend and gamble on promotion this season.

Yeah, but are they the sort of people you'd want alongside you in the trenches?

 

[tedster]

CW has said from day one he wouldn't pay stupid money for any player, and January is the time clubs get drawn into such deals. The players names some are putting forward on here are way above what CW or KM will pay.

Matty taylor frim bristol rovers apparently has a 300,000 release clause.Problem is wolves,qpr,n wednesday r sniffing now

 

[cooperblade]

So the question is fellow Blades, why haven't we signed a genuine goal-scoring partner for Billy?

The partner for Billy has to work with and complement Billy and I think that's part of the problem. A target man alongside him doesn't work as he doesn't seem to anticipate flick-ons and doesn't have the pace to run onto them anyway and a pacey striker might end up making similar runs and getting in his way plus Sharp wouldn't be supplying him.

He maybe needs someone who isn't a goal-scoring type but is more of a number 10 / provider type striker. More of a Jose Baxter February / March 2014 type of a player. Perhaps that's what Jay O'Shea has been brought in for?

I might well be forgetting someone but other than Andy Keogh (who he worked incredibly well with), has Sharp had a partner he's really clicked with in his career? That's not meant as a criticism of Sharp, I just think he's best used in a slightly different way to the traditional goalscorer in a 4-4-2 role.

 

[I should coco]

Not only is now blatantly the time to spend a bit. Not only have we blatantly got a manager we can trust completely. Not only will we almost certainly be promoted with a couple of quality signings.... But even if we did fail to get promoted, it's not like the money has automatically been wasted.

'Blatantly' in January 2015 we had the right manager too. We'd been to a semi at Wembley (and scored) and only just been kocked out the LC by Spurs. We ere 'blatantly' on the up and everything was rosy.

McCabe backed Clough by bringing in Coutts (big wages), Brayford (£1.5m + big wages), Holt, Freeman, Done (fee + wages) and S Davies.

Would youy say any of that money was wasted?

 

[SHOREHAMST.com]

Billy can't play with 95% of other strikers and that's why he's hasn't played at a higher level consistently.

 

[GrayBlade]

The partner for Billy has to work with and complement Billy and I think that's part of the problem. A target man alongside him doesn't work as he doesn't seem to anticipate flick-ons and doesn't have the pace to run onto them anyway and a pacey striker might end up making similar runs and getting in his way plus Sharp wouldn't be supplying him.

He maybe needs someone who isn't a goal-scoring type but is more of a number 10 / provider type striker. More of a Jose Baxter February / March 2014 type of a player. Perhaps that's what Jay O'Shea has been brought in for?

I might well be forgetting someone but other than Andy Keogh (who he worked incredibly well with), has Sharp had a partner he's really clicked with in his career? That's not meant as a criticism of Sharp, I just think he's best used in a slightly different way to the traditional goalscorer in a 4-4-2 role.

Totally agree mate, maybe Hanson can be that player?

It's interesting that you mention it because last night over a pint somebody mentioned how lethal we'd be if we could just find another Keith Edwards type and pair him with Billy. Most including YT reckoned the only way we could use them is if they played a half each because they'd both be making the same runs.

Like you say, sometimes if they're playing alongside somebody genuinely prolific, a follow striker can offer more to the cause by just chipping in with a few and helping the main striker gets the chances.

What I would say though is that by 'chipping in' I mean around 8-10 goals and our other strikers currently have only scored half that between them which I'd obviously not good enough. We'd look pretty sick without Sharp and Freeman's contributions, but hopefully the new recruits like O'Shea will put that right.

 

[cooperblade]

Totally agree mate, maybe Hanson can be that player?

I think Hanson will solve a different problem. He'll allow our wide players to put 'proper' crosses in rather than always trying to play a flatter cross knowing that they've only got smaller players to aim for.

As a partnership, I think he'd work better with Done or Lavery than Sharp.

Totally agree about goalscoring - think Clarke, Done, Lavery, Duffy, Coutts, Fleck and even Lafferty should be disappointed with how many they've scored so far.

 

[BushBlade]

'Blatantly' in January 2015 we had the right manager too. We'd been to a semi at Wembley (and scored) and only just been kocked out the LC by Spurs. We ere 'blatantly' on the up and everything was rosy.

McCabe backed Clough by bringing in Coutts (big wages), Brayford (£1.5m + big wages), Holt, Freeman, Done (fee + wages) and S Davies.

Would youy say any of that money was wasted?

That's the dilemma. It's clear the board have just had enough of losing large amounts of money and it's understandable why. But it's a bit like being a tight poker player and thinking you can win by only making small gambles. It rarely works, if ever.

We seem to be stuck between two stools, where the owners will put some money in, enough for them to resent it slightly but not enough to blow the opposition out of the water. I can understand the frustration of supporters who want to see more spent but I can see why the owners don't want to spend it.

Having a poor spell during the JTW doesn't help. Had we won a couple of our last games I doubt there'd be as much angst. There's an unfortunate feeling of 'here we go again' though. Rather like our PL season where we were doing OK around Christmas and Warnock was only allowed to sign players on relatively low wages, because the board was complacent, we didn't really need to strengthen that much, our players are good enough and will keep us up etc. Followed by regret and then giving loads of money to the next bloke.

But I always suspected it would be a two season job, I just hope CW gets two years.

 

[Grappler]

I think if James Hanson can be the strong hold up player, then that solves some of the problems, and if O' Shea, Carruthers and the rest of the pack can get good ball to Billys feet in the box, we will have a chance of scoring.

All too often, we defend a corner, clear the ball to Billy, who is still in our half, and he has to hold up play and try and bring in others and then try and race up to the box.

Or, the other situation, is that Billy ends up out on the wing, trying to put the delivery in.

CW should say to Billy, "just hang around the box and wait for the ball". By all means press defenders and their keeper, try and force a mistake, but stay up top.

 

[Ricky]

'Blatantly' in January 2015 we had the right manager too. We'd been to a semi at Wembley (and scored) and only just been kocked out the LC by Spurs. We ere 'blatantly' on the up and everything was rosy.

McCabe backed Clough by bringing in Coutts (big wages), Brayford (£1.5m + big wages), Holt, Freeman, Done (fee + wages) and S Davies.

Would youy say any of that money was wasted?

That's not correct though is it.

Clough had us 20 points off the top where we were expected to be and filled the squad with shite. He'd done nothing to prove he could be trusted with money. In addition to that the football was negative and boring and he even settled for points at home to terrible opposition and tried to tell us they were acceptable results. All these things show he was anything but the right man, let alone 'blatantly' the right man. The cup runs fooled the fans and the board.

In comparison, Wilder has taken over when we weren't expected to be near the top of the league. We had a squad that wasn't fit for purpose. It required major surgery and he turned it around completely in a single transfer window with a signings success rate of at least 80%, which is unheard of, especially for us. On top of that the football is good to watch, we score goals, always play to win and approach things exactly as a club like us should do in this league.

So I'd say there's a little bit of a difference between then and now.

Clough wasn't the right man, so Clough wasted (a lot of) money. Everything suggests Wilder is the right man and would have a much better chance of spending money wisely.

As for the bit you've highlighted in bold, I don't see what there is to argue with.

 

[I should coco]

Clough wasn't the right man, so Clough wasted (a lot of) money. Everything suggests Wilder is the right man and would have a much better chance of spending money wisely.

Previously you said CW was 'blatantly' the right man. Now you say 'suggests'. I'm not being funny but you've made my point for me.
There are no guarantees and large amounts of money could easily be spunked again.

As it happens, I agree that CW is the right one but I'm just making the point we've been here before.

As for the bit you've highlighted in bold, I don't see what there is to argue with.

You said if the money was spent it wouldn't be wasted. Taking 2015, I would suggest that the Brayford money (fee + wages) was wasted and Coutts high wages have been a write off, until this autumn.

It's always easy to spend someone else's money.

 

[brownie4583]

Hopefully a Sharp/Hanson partnership will develop well and drive us on

 

[Bayingblade]

To those who say "we need to invest" or "we are doing this on the cheap" I think we need some perspective. We are in League 1 and have been for 6 years!! That has had a significant impact on the club financially. Having said that, very few in this league have the ability to compete with United financially, even after 6 years.

So, in this JTW thus far, we have signed Carruthers for a rumoured 250k plus wages, let's say that's 4k a week (fair?). A 3 year deal takes that investment to 850k. We've signed Hanson and reportedly paid a fee for him (50k?, 100k?) and got O'Shea and Riley on loan, both of which will be costing money. So that's well over £1Million the board have committed to, maybe even closer to £2Million with wages, loan fees, agents etc.

That's not chicken feed for a League 1 club and it would be interesting to compare that with what other teams who are near the top of the league have spent.

I would also suggest that it does demonstrate some sort of ambition to get out of this league this year.

 

[Ricky]

Previously you said CW was 'blatantly' the right man. Now you say 'suggests'. I'm not being funny but you've made my point for me.
There are no guarantees and large amounts of money could easily be spunked again.

As it happens, I agree that CW is the right one but I'm just making the point we've been here before.



You said if the money was spent it wouldn't be wasted. Taking 2015, I would suggest that the Brayford money (fee + wages) was wasted and Coutts high wages have been a write off, until this autumn.

It's always easy to spend someone else's money.

To me Wilder is blatantly the right man, I'm not changing that view. If he can't be backed with money then no one will ever be. It goes without saying that there's always some risk. Just much less if you've got the right manager and good scouts.

We haven't been here before with the right manager. Even those who thought Clough was couldn't deny that he recruited poorly the previous summer. Or that we were well off the pace in the league. Some of us knew it wasn't wise to let Clough spend that much, on Brayford in particular. The situations are completely different.

I said "even if we did fail to get promoted, it's not like the money has automatically been wasted". There's nothing to argue with there. You can sign a good player and still fail as a team.

Clough's reckless spending is no reason to expect Wilder to waste money.

 

[I should coco]

So, in this JTW thus far, we have signed Carruthers for a rumoured 250k plus wages, let's say that's 4k a week (fair?). A 3 year deal takes that investment to 850k. We've signed Hanson and reportedly paid a fee for him (50k?, 100k?) and got O'Shea and Riley on loan, both of which will be costing money. So that's well over £1Million the board have committed to, maybe even closer to £2Million with wages, loan fees, agents etc.

I'd say Carruthers is probably on more. Whinall was on £4k at the Dingles (them and Rovrum have the lowest wages in the Championship). He had a season there last year and so I'd think more like £6k at the Plastics, so we may be paying even more. If we have given him 3.5 years (all contracts run to 30/6), then with NI and pension oncost, that is about £ 1.4m in wages alone for just him. Hanson is probably on slightly less but taking all 4 together you'd be closer to £4m.

Of course, wages don't count when we are talking 'investments' as we all know that the magic money tree takes care of those.

 

[I should coco]

Clough's reckless spending is no reason to expect Wilder to waste money.

But the Clough money has been spunked and has gone. Where exactly is this 'new money' for Wilder supposed to come from?

Oh yes, I forgot. McCabe has loads more money than us and none of us ever saked to be Chairman, so it's his 'job' to put his hand in his pocket again.

 

[Esablade]

Matty taylor frim bristol rovers apparently has a 300,000 release clause.Problem is wolves,qpr,n wednesday r sniffing now

£300k?

I'd be a little surprised if that were true...you'd think someone would have snapped their hand off already at that price?

 

[Ricky]

But the Clough money has been spunked and has gone. Where exactly is this 'new money' for Wilder supposed to come from?

Oh yes, I forgot. McCabe has loads more money than us and none of us ever saked to be Chairman, so it's his 'job' to put his hand in his pocket again.

McCabe, Prince, whoever, wherever. But if we're talking about McCabe his mistakes put us down here and have kept us here for 6 years. He has to bite the bullet, accept responsibility and accept more losses for the good of the club. Ultimately he will remain a very rich man. At the age he is if I was him I'd be desperate to put the club in a good position again ASAP, leave a positive legacy and not be remembered as the man who established the club in the third division.

And as I've said before, spending money on players shouldn't be dead money if you do it right. If a player's value holds or increases you can always sell them and at least recoup the transfer fee.

 

[Bayingblade]

McCabe, Prince, whoever, wherever. But if we're talking about McCabe his mistakes put us down here and have kept us here for 6 years. He has to bite the bullet, accept responsibility and accept more losses for the good of the club. Ultimately he will remain a very rich man. At the age he is if I was him I'd be desperate to put the club in a good position again ASAP, leave a positive legacy and not be remembered as the man who established the club in the third division.

And as I've said before, spending money on players shouldn't be dead money if you do it right. If a player's value holds or increases you can always sell them and at least recoup the transfer fee.

How much more? Here's another option. Why shouldn't he put season tickets up to £5000 each to raise cash for players?

 

[I should coco]

McCabe, Prince, whoever, wherever. But if we're talking about McCabe his mistakes put us down here and have kept us here for 6 years. He has to bite the bullet, accept responsibility and accept more losses for the good of the club. Ultimately he will remain a very rich man. At the age he is if I was him I'd be desperate to put the club in a good position again ASAP, leave a positive legacy and not be remembered as the man who established the club in the third division.

That's all right then and all we need to consider.

And as I've said before, spending money on players shouldn't be dead money if you do it right. If a player's value holds or increases you can always sell them and at least recoup the transfer fee.

Yes because as we all know the magic money tree will take care of wages while these players value's are 'increasing'.

Easy stuff this football economics and I don't why we dont' buy more players.

 

[Ricky]

That's all right then and all we need to consider.



Yes because as we all know the magic money tree will take care of wages while these players value's are 'increasing'.

Easy stuff this football economics and I don't why we dont' buy more players.

The wage bill is an ongoing expense and will always be adjusted so any new signings ultimately fit within the total wage budget. Players leaving is as inevitable as players joining therefore some sort of balance should always be maintained long term as long as you're not careless. It's also a sustainable expense if you look at the ticket revenue as funding it - the wage bill and that revenue is usually a similar amount.

 

[I should coco]

It's also a sustainable expense if you look at the ticket revenue as funding it - the wage bill and that revenue is usually a similar amount.

Similar?

As in the "the wage bill is similar to the revenue but about £5m per season more"?

Why do you think we make such a large loss every year?

Oh yes, McCabe stealing all the money; silly me.

 

[Bayingblade]

The wage bill is an ongoing expense and will always be adjusted so any new signings ultimately fit within the total wage budget. Players leaving is as inevitable as players joining therefore some sort of balance should always be maintained long term as long as you're not careless. It's also a sustainable expense if you look at the ticket revenue as funding it - the wage bill and that revenue is usually a similar amount.

You either don't read or don't understand the accounts.

 

[tedster]

£300k?

I'd be a little surprised if that were true...you'd think someone would have snapped their hand off already at that price?

Thats what it says on the website,how true who knows

 

[Ricky]

Similar?

As in the "the wage bill is similar to the revenue but about £5m per season more"?

Why do you think we make such a large loss every year?

Oh yes, McCabe stealing all the money; silly me.

I'm talking about the player wage bill.

 

[I should coco]

I'm talking about the player wage bill.

Silly me.

So we can ignore the costs of the groundsmen, ticket office staff, stewards, academy staff and the office workers. They are nothing to do with playing football and so their wages don't count.

They do not have to be paid in real money and even if they did, there is always the magic money tree........

 

[Bayingblade]

I'm talking about the player wage bill.

The player wages rose from £5.5M under Clough to £6.8M under Adkins. What does that tell you?

 

[I should coco]

The player wages rose from £5.5M under Clough to £6.8M under Adkins. What does that tell you?

Revenue magically went up too?

 

[Bayingblade]

Revenue magically went up too?

No, fell by £200k from £10.8M to £10.6M.......

But I think you knew that ISCC

 

[Ricky]

Silly me.

So we can ignore the costs of the groundsmen, ticket office staff, stewards, academy staff and the office workers. They are nothing to do with playing football and so their wages don't count.

They do not have to be paid in real money and even if they did, there is always the magic money tree........

Nope. I've not said that have I. I've not denied that we make a loss. All I said was that you can look at it as the ticket revenue paying the player wage bill. And that the wage bill will always fluctuate and be adjusted with outgoings etc. New signings add to it but you'll always lose other players to compensate.

I suggest spending more/increasing the losses a bit at the right time (now) would see us recoup that money and more in the Championship. We've said this in previous seasons, and it's applied then too, but not as much as it does now - we're top in January with a good manager, if we invest well we'd surely get promoted.

The player wages rose from £5.5M under Clough to £6.8M under Adkins. What does that tell you?

It tells me that the board allowed Clough to lumber us with garbage we couldn't move so had to find extra money for Adkins to waste.

The player wage bill won't even be over £5.5m now. Come the end of the season the ticket revenue will have exceeded that amount.