I think its time to stop...

[Grecian2000]

Can't we have a "Scapegoat" forum where people can talk bollocks about a word they don't really know the meaning of for ever and a day?

It's a sad fact of life that defenders and goalkeepers probably make less errors than attackers but, as their ricks are punished more directly, they take a disproportionate amount of the flack.
Take Gillingham away (didn't go so didn't comment at the time) where some people were saying the attackers were equally to blame for playing poorly BUT the defense takes the brunt for conceding four. It's just how it is I'm afraid.
Attackers get the "luxury" of being able to miss chances as "No-one scores every time" (how many misses before a striker gets a score of 3 say, and will a last minute tap in take it up to 6?).

First lesson in a footballers life. Be good enough to play upfront, it's easier in the long run.

 

[Punk Blade]

Can't we have a "Scapegoat" forum where people can talk bollocks about a word they don't really know the meaning of for ever and a day?

It's a sad fact of life that defenders and goalkeepers probably make less errors than attackers but, as their ricks are punished more directly, they take a disproportionate amount of the flack.
Take Gillingham away (didn't go so didn't comment at the time) where some people were saying the attackers were equally to blame for playing poorly BUT the defense takes the brunt for conceding four. It's just how it is I'm afraid.
Attackers get the "luxury" of being able to miss chances as "No-one scores every time" (how many misses before a striker gets a score of 3 say, and will a last minute tap in take it up to 6?).

First lesson in a footballers life. Be good enough to play upfront, it's easier in the long run.

My first thought when reading a good 'scapegoat' thread is "where's Grecian?"

 

[1danewhitehouse]

They were very disappointed when Nathan Byrne didn't run rings like him as predicted. They're happy now. We have to make room for Bladey Tel, if he's ever fit, so J-Mac has to be crap.

So simple; So transparent.

This is just utter nonsense from a poster who seems to have a real agenda against Terry Kennedy.. McEveley has been getting stick for his performance at left back on Saturday and the only suggestions that I’ve seen is that we play Wallace there or as players return from injury, put Freeman or Harris there.

Slating his performance at left back has absolutely nothing to do with Terry Kennedy. If people were desperate for Kennedy to play, surely they would be criticising Collins rather than Jay Mac. To my knowledge Kennedy has never played left back. I don’t think he has the attributes to make a good left back either and I don’t think anyone is advocating playing him there. If his knees were decent, I could see him eventually displacing Collins but I think it’s unlikely. As far as Kennedy goes, it seems you are the only one with an agenda and feel the need to bring him into discussions despite the lack of relevance.

As for McEveley. I don’t blame him for the first as I believe he was fouled. I do blame him for the 3rd as slightest trace of a nudge or not, he should have dealt with it. How many defenders of his size would fail to deal with that ball? Any competent defender should be able to deal with that with minimal fuss.

But I don’t think he lost us the game as we were already 2-1 down by then. I think a combination of poor refereeing, poor finishing from us, lack of wide options when JCR went off and a wonder strike from them is why we lost the game. His ridiculous error just put some extra gloss on for them and reminded us all just how much of a liability he can be at times. Fortunately, playing LB, he doesn’t often have to deal with that kind of ball as he was proven himself incapable time and time again.

I also don’t think any blade was disappointed that Byrne didn’t run rings round him. I think most were relieved as they feared he might. I also don’t think any are “happy” that he was so poor on Saturday and you suggest. But hey, why let that stop you making things up just to try to have a go at Terry Kennedy.

There may be a degree of confirmation bias from some fans but “scapegoating” is oversimplifying what’s going on in my opinion. Fans don’t have any other reason to form an opionion on a player other than their performances. If McEveley played consistently well and didn’t make ridiculous errors that cost us goals, then the fans wouldn’t be on his case. But I agree some who have now decided he is shit might blame him for something that is not necessarily his fault such as the first (and second) goal on Saturday.

I also don’t agree with getting on his case at the match. That will only hinder his performances. However, I think on a football forum, where we come to discuss issues surrounding our team, it’s entirely appropriate to criticise a player who makes so many errors that have a detrimental effect on our team.

 

[AlienBlade]

I don't understand the term scapegoat. When was the last time a good player, who performed consistently was made one? Isn't a scapegoat just a player that gets a lot of criticism from a large proportion of the fans?

Carlos Tevez was made a scapegoat (despite being a good player)

A Scape goat is a player who gets usually gets flak over and above that which is warrented...

If the criticism came from one bad performance then both the manager and player could justifiably be put out by the criticism...

...However Mcevely has been poor more or less the entire time he has been here, I rate him no higher than League two level, he may be a popular guy around the club and works hard in training, cuts no ice if he makes mistakes during games and usually the same ones over and over again.

but has he.... I mean the fact that Adkins is still playing him must mean he maybe isnt clouded by the hysteria of scapegoatism....

in his first season (until that Tottenham handball In January) he was very rarely singled out if ever...despite playing the majority out of position.

his Average rating for the season from the player rating system was 6.13 (hardly abysmal..) he was only twice the lowest starter (in terms of score out off 10) thats in 45 games.... 14 were above 7 out of 10... (his highest was 9.25 vs QPR his Lowest was 2.47 (vs Gillingham and he wasnt the lowest scoring starter!!)

in fact he only finished as the worse starter TWICE last season (Rochdale and Swindon) and actually won man of the Match TWICE (Barnsley and MK Dons)

I think that fully blows your post clean out of the water....

 

[AlienBlade]

The official records will show that he wasn't fouled else a free kick would have been awarded.

and the official records show that Gerrard won a penalty with an "intent to foul" doesn't make the thing correct does it?

 

[super_pig]

Quinn immediately springs to mind and in more recent times Basham and Flynn

quinn left. .bash improved. flynn is injured.. position vacant

 

[FTPE]

but has he.... I mean the fact that Adkins is still playing him must mean he maybe isnt clouded by the hysteria of scapegoatism....

Or, Nigel doesn't want to look daft backtracking having put the worst footballer in the club as captain.
He'd not seen him in a competitive game and it sounds like he made him captain because of his attitude in the changing room. Make him a bleedin coach then, or better still a cheerleader, but not united's captain.
I even heard Nigel complementing him on how he warms up, really!?

 

[super_pig]

This is just utter nonsense from a poster who seems to have a real agenda against Terry Kennedy..

no he has an agenda with the academy and anyone associated with it falls into this category

 

[AlienBlade]

Or, Nigel doesn't want to look daft backtracking having put the worst footballer in the club as captain.
He'd not seen him in a competitive game and it sounds like he made him captain because of his attitude in the changing room. Make him a bleedin coach then, or better still a cheerleader, but not united's captain.
I even heard Nigel complementing him on how he warms up, really!?

grrrr is it that difficult to use the quote button on here....

do you honestly think Adkins sufffers fools easily? if they arent performing they get dropped (he has done so before) and will do it again.

and the ability to unite a dressing room is surely a good attribute to have (people wanted Collins to be.. despite MANY games all he seemed to do was shout at everyone else for his own mistakes and their inability to dig him out of the hole he had put the team in.

(managers are not afraid to do this... Doyle was made captain for last season and Clough played many games without him....

I have had a look from last season (when everyone thinks McEveley was the worst player... and his average was 6.1 (bearing in mind on some of the later games like Swindon he was given a 3.24.... (do people really think his performance on Saturday was on Par with the Swindon debarcle... honestly) (4.6 was the average of the lowest starter by the way) and 7.9 was the highest... so at worse you could say he was on average a middling player!

everyone was slamming Clough last season for telling certain players they needed up their game (McNulty) now you are slating Adkins (who can clearly see the scapegoatism going off trying to pick up a player.... (he was also stroking Reed's ago too...)

 

[William Henry Foulkes]

he cost us two possibly three goals.. what more does he need to do to inherit Monty's shirt. put the ball in his own goal three times??
he just needs to stop overplaying. i think he is aware that his recent form has not been good and is trying to show the fans how good he is.. that is what is getting him into trouble. it all started at the Spurs game when he gave away the soft pen
i'll trot out my usual comment on this. stop playing crap and people will stop complaining. there wouldn't be a scapegoat at all if they all played well in the same 90 minutes .. god forbid

He possibly cost us one goal.

Aiming at the wrong target means the real areas for improvement go unaddressed.

 

[super_pig]

fair points

 

[1danewhitehouse]

Alien. Did McEveley's average for last season leave him above anyone excluding Higdon, Coutts, Alcock and Turner?

Just curious

 

[AlienBlade]

Adkins also wants the defender to play the ball out (and has said so in interviews) if the pass isnt on he

Alien. Did McEveley's average for last season leave him above anyone excluding Higdon, Coutts, Alcock and Turner?

Just curious

I didnt do everyone's (I just looked at the lowest and the highest and McEveley's)

Alcock actually got 3 MOM's out of the first 4 games.... (but people think he was bad too...)

but Baxter got the lowest 6 times... and MOM just the once..

Basham got the lowest 3 times... and MOM 5 times.

Cambell Ryce got the lowest score 5 times... and MOM 3 times.

interestingly Flynn actually got MOM more times than any other player with 10 games (Done and Murphy was second with 6 a piece)

Baxter and Higdon actually are joint "Worst Starters" with 6 games a piece Scougall & Campbell Ryce with 5 a pieces....

NB: MOM is "our MOM" as in the best rated player for us)

 

[1danewhitehouse]

Adkins also wants the defender to play the ball out (and has said so in interviews) if the pass isnt on he


I didnt do everyone's (I just looked at the lowest and the highest and McEveley's)

Alcock actually got 3 MOM's out of the first 4 games.... (but people think he was bad too...)

but Baxter got the lowest 6 times... and MOM just the once..

Basham got the lowest 3 times... and MOM 5 times.

Cambell Ryce got the lowest score 5 times... and MOM 3 times.

interestingly Flynn actually got MOM more times than any other player with 10 games (Done and Murphy was second with 6 a piece)

Baxter and Higdon actually are joint "Worst Starters" with 6 games a piece Scougall & Campbell Ryce with 5 a pieces....

NB: MOM is "our MOM" as in the best rated player for us)

Interesting stuff Alien. I suppose 2 of those 3 MoM awards for Alcock were in losing teams at the start of the season so takes some gloss off perhaps although I agree he started the season well. I think the overall average rating out of 10 probably gives a more accurate analysis of how players performed. But then again, these will be distorted by over the top reactions from fans to something a player did. For example, I'd be willing to bet that Baxter and Basham's "worst" ratings included Coventry at home and Vale away because they were sent off. And given the anger at Baxter, I bet his ratings were espectially low.

I suspect average ratings would put Turner and possibly Coutts lower than Baxter though.

 

[Guesty]

we were undone by a one in a million shot
shit happens , went through this scenario saying we WILL lose games
the trick is to pick our selves up and win the next
we can lose 15 games if we win 31 , and dont draw any

No, we were undone by the lack of urgency and pressure on the ball, and the complete failure to recognise that the right back liked a shot from distance.

Remember Crewe's winner last season (the one that went straight down Howard's throat that he missed entirely)? That was a one in a million shot too, according to plenty on here. Have there been a million shots on our goal since? Are we spectacularly unlucky? Or is it time to recognise that sometimes this wonder strikes do come from errors and can be prevented, rather than being the manifestation of divine fate?

 

[AlienBlade]

Interesting stuff Alien. I suppose 2 of those 3 MoM awards for Alcock were in losing teams at the start of the season so takes some gloss off perhaps although I agree he started the season well. I think the overall average rating out of 10 probably gives a more accurate analysis of how players performed. But then again, these will be distorted by over the top reactions from fans to something a player did. For example, I'd be willing to bet that Baxter and Basham's "worst" ratings included Coventry at home and Vale away because they were sent off. And given the anger at Baxter, I bet his ratings were espectially low.

I suspect average ratings would put Turner and possibly Coutts lower than Baxter though.

Baxters Lowest Team Ratings (he may have lower ones but someone else pipped him) (I didnt put them H or A) but they run in order)

Bradford 5.5
Barnsley 4.02
Crewe 3.42
Notts 3.63
Bristol 8.12
Coventry 2.45

Bashams
Bristol 4.48
Rochdale 4.71
Swindon 1.64.... did he rip the heart out of Murphy and gorge himself on it sacrifical style on the centre circle that match....


I will try and get them all together at some point....

although in answer to your question about Alcock

Bristol 7.67 (lost)
Coventry 4.9 (lost)
Peterborough 8.2 (won)

he then got 7.12 in the Crawley game we won (Ben Davies getting the MOM with 8.57)

I have got down to 7 games in so far and currently McGahay, Harris, Butler, Flynn, Reed, Scougall, Basham, Murphy, McGinn, Higdon and Porter all rate on average lower than McEveley.....

will produce the full list as soon as I can..... (could be quite interesting this...)

 

[FTPE]

grrrr is it that difficult to use the quote button on here....

do you honestly think Adkins sufffers fools easily? if they arent performing they get dropped (he has done so before) and will do it again.

and the ability to unite a dressing room is surely a good attribute to have (people wanted Collins to be.. despite MANY games all he seemed to do was shout at everyone else for his own mistakes and their inability to dig him out of the hole he had put the team in.

(managers are not afraid to do this... Doyle was made captain for last season and Clough played many games without him....

I have had a look from last season (when everyone thinks McEveley was the worst player... and his average was 6.1 (bearing in mind on some of the later games like Swindon he was given a 3.24.... (do people really think his performance on Saturday was on Par with the Swindon debarcle... honestly) (4.6 was the average of the lowest starter by the way) and 7.9 was the highest... so at worse you could say he was on average a middling player!

everyone was slamming Clough last season for telling certain players they needed up their game (McNulty) now you are slating Adkins (who can clearly see the scapegoatism going off trying to pick up a player.... (he was also stroking Reed's ago too...)

I really really apologies for not using the quote button correctly for you!! I hate making people grrrrrrrrr.
I don't care what people give him out of 10, all these in the Jay for captain camp probably give him 11 every time he does cost us the 3points. I judge him on what I see, I think he's a liability and I genuinely think he'll stay in the team for longer because Adkins has made him captain.

 

[AlienBlade]

I really really apologies for not using the quote button correctly for you!! I hate making people grrrrrrrrr.
I don't care what people give him out of 10, all these in the Jay for captain camp probably give him 11 every time he does cost us the 3points. I judge him on what I see, I think he's a liability and I genuinely think he'll stay in the team for longer because Adkins has made him captain.

apology accepted (you wasnt the only one btw... I was trying to make sure I covered points made and it's difficult when the quote is empty )

everyone is entitled to their own opinion... there are two things you have to seperate... 1 being is he any good as a player and the other is he any good as a captain... both are mutually exclusive... (he could be a fantastic captain but no able to play or be an excellent player and be unable to captain... he could also be neither or both...)

I have see that even those who had not been to the game state that on the basis of the hysteria by those who dislike McEveley they voted a low score (so hadnt even seen him) so it works both ways... those who simply dont like him or want him not to be captain can easily post a 1.... (but doesnt mean his performance was a 1...

as I said I doubt Adkins will suffer fools lightly.... he has not played every game for us despite being captain... (so blows your theory clean our of the water on the first shot) so he is not scared to have a different person wearing the arm band.... so if he felt that he was underperforming he can simply give someone else the arm band (in fact he said at the beginning of his reign he doesnt believe in "ONE CAPTAIN" he wants several captains. one just may end up wearing the arm band... which also backs up the claim that if he honestly thought he was useless.... he would have dropped him and given another player the arm band...

 

[Jonboy60]

You know you don't have to submit ratings?

Makes me feel like I'm part of the family.

 

[coaxingstar71]

That was tongue in cheek mate, nothing else but still nice to know you care so much

My post wasn't just directed at you which is why I didn't 'reply' directly. It was aimed a number of posts inferring the same thing. Apologies if your comment was made tongue-in-cheek. I suspect this was because you might have realised the same thing.

 

[blade too long]

No, we were undone by the lack of urgency and pressure on the ball, and the complete failure to recognise that the right back liked a shot from distance.

Remember Crewe's winner last season (the one that went straight down Howard's throat that he missed entirely)? That was a one in a million shot too, according to plenty on here. Have there been a million shots on our goal since? Are we spectacularly unlucky? Or is it time to recognise that sometimes this wonder strikes do come from errors and can be prevented, rather than being the manifestation of divine fate?

all goals can be prevented, , but football would be very fucking dull if every game were 0-0
tell how do you recognise when a full back likes a shot
had he had 6 or 7 already

 

[AlienBlade]

Alien. Did McEveley's average for last season leave him above anyone excluding Higdon, Coutts, Alcock and Turner?

Just curious

Ok Drum Roll.............

of the 38 players that graced the field in the famous red and white....

TWENTY ONE players finished with a lower average that Jay McEveley!! (which means that 16 players scored a high average)

Interestingly the Worldbeater that was sold (Murphy had an average of 6.3 (just 0.24 higher than McEveley's)

Only 1 player averaged over 7 out of 10 and that was Kennedy (11 games) 7.18, Done in second with 6.87 (17 games) Flynn in third with 6.82 (45 games) (discounted O'Grady 6.89 from 4 games)

the average performance of the team was 6.10 (the worse being Gillingham 3.03 the best Southampton 8.73)

the lowest Average score for a player who played more than 10 games is Higdon with 5.16 (20 games) - Collins was second with 5.5 (12 games) and Alcock in 3rd with 5.52 (31 games) (Mcginn (4.43, Dimaio 4.58, Porter 4.68, Calvert Lewin 4.62, De Girolamo 5.28 discounted due to playing less than 10 games)

oh and Baxters ranged from 2.38 to 8.72

(also realised I missed a match for McEverley when I was doing it originall which took the average down to 6.06 but the above takes account of that)

 

[1danewhitehouse]

Interesting stuff Alien. I completely forgot about McGinn and Porter being in the reckoning.

Interesting to see that Baxter got an average rating of over 8 at Bristol and was still the lowest player. I don’t know what is going on with Basham’s rating at Swindon there. Must have taken out Tel and Murphy with some sort of double drop kick to get that rating.

For me, the thing is that I don’t think McEveley is an awful footballer. But I do think he is a poor centre half due to repeatedly causing us the same problems whenever he plays there. A long punt over the top means he has to battle with a striker with his back to goal. If that striker has a little bit of pace and power he’s fucked. He seems extremely poor at judging the flight of the ball and doesn’t have the physicality and aerial ability needed for a centre half.

In games where he manages to avoid a rick, I suspect he gets good ratings because, contrary to some statements on here, I think he is good at playing out from the back (by centre half standards at least, less so by full back standards). That helps us control games and start attacks.

The problem is that centre halves just cannot afford to be as mistake prone as he is. In fact, I’m not sure it even qualifies as mistakes if it’s the norm. He just cannot judge the flight of a ball or compete with imposing centre forwards. Players like Forte and Clarke just make him look hopeless.

I remember at one point last season, someone on blades mad suggesting he might be better in the holding midfield role due to being decent with the ball and his bombscare defending. I suspect he might not be better than what we have there but I can see an argument for it.
I don’t actually mind him at left back too much. I prefer Harris because he is quicker and overlaps more but for me, McEveley is adequate cover there. The reason there is so much hysteria this week si that on the 3rd goal he ended up in that centre half position where he made his usual mess of the punt down field. That only happened because we were chasing the game in the last minute and is not the norm when he plays left back so I’m not overly concerned. I just don’t ever want to see him at centre half for us again.

My only concern with him playing left back is Che being out. Woolford seems like the sort of left sided midfielder who needs a full back bombing on ahead of him and I don’t think McEveley suits that role compared to say Harris or Freeman. I actually think McEveley and Adams works quite well as McEveley sits deep and Adams has more license to roam. I could see Woolford and Harris being a decent pairing but McEveley and Woolford lacks any sort of threat for me. It’s a bit like when we had Alcock and Flynn down the right for a while last season. Flynn is good at right back or with an attacking right back overlapping him but not when he’s given all of the attacking responsibility for his flank. Same with Woolford on the left I think. Adams and JCR and play in front of defence minded fullbacks as they have the pace and trickery to beat defenders and make things happen but probably don’t link as well with give and go moves and cover the attacking full back.

 

[crucialkneeligaman]

and the official records show that Gerrard won a penalty with an "intent to foul" doesn't make the thing correct does it?

It doesn't no Alien, but that doesn't alter the fact that a goal was scored from it which was allowed by the officials, nothings going to change that.

 

[Grecian2000]

Alcock in 3rd with 5.52 (31 games)

(also realised I missed a match for McEverley when I was doing it originall which took the average down to 6.06 but the above takes account of that)

Did Alcock really appear 31 times? I find that astonishing, if someone had asked I'd have said 10 to 15!

As for J Mc, I have no real evidence as I never give (or even look at) ratings, but I think there are two different set of games that make up the figures.
Pre Spurs away - I would say he was frequently amongst the best defenders in the side.
Post Spurs away - In my view he was often poor (and injured it has to be said) and amongst the worst players in most games.

 

[AlienBlade]

It doesn't no Alien, but that doesn't alter the fact that a goal was scored from it which was allowed by the officials, nothings going to change that.

I am not saying it changes anything... but just because something is given and "it's in the history books" it must make it beyind reproach...

as they say History books are only written by the winning side....

 

[AlienBlade]

Did Alcock really appear 31 times? I find that astonishing, if someone had asked I'd have said 10 to 15!

As for J Mc, I have no real evidence as I never give (or even look at) ratings, but I think there are two different set of games that make up the figures.
Pre Spurs away - I would say he was frequently amongst the best defenders in the side.
Post Spurs away - In my view he was often poor (and injured it has to be said) and amongst the worst players in most games.

I think a few were "substitute appearences (although he did have a huge run in the side until the Oldham game.

I made the point earlier that the spurs game was the pivotal spot (everyone remembers the hand ball, then in the next game there was another incident (think he gave away a pen or slipped and allowed the defender to get it...)

however although the average does drop post Spurs (the first game) (to 5.5) his best game 8 of his last 16 games he scored over his average for the season (which to me says there is a "perception problem" and this is where he was deemed to be "bombscare" (as he had 2 or 3 incidnets in close proximity...) (he scored 8.75 in the Bristol away game for example)

there was also only 5 games of those 16 where he was the lowest scoring defender....
the mind is a wonderful thing...

 

[FTPE]

Genuine question AlienBlade
Are you sticking up for McEveley because you rate him as a player and a captain?
Fighting his corner because he's been made a "scapegoat", or are you on Adkins side and just want to support the new mans decisions?

 

[AlienBlade]

Genuine question AlienBlade
Are you sticking up for McEveley because you rate him as a player and a captain?
Fighting his corner because he's been made a "scapegoat", or are you on Adkins side and just want to support the new mans decisions?

I would say it's too early to say on the Captain front (6 league games in an 4 wins and 2 losses seems fairly reasonable at the moment looking at the bigger picture) how do you judge a captain? I dont think he hides that's for certain. when he gets beaten he at least attempts to get back (which is more than some players do)

I dont think he is a "worldbeater" by any stretch, however I don't think he is as bad as people make out. (so there is probably an element of the fighting his corner because he has been made a "scapegoat", but I wouldnt say it was wholely because of this.

I have some differing opinions to Adkins and will say them (for example playing Baxter and expecting something from it) I have no doubt Baxter CAN be a quality player if and when he puts his mind to it... unfortunately this is far too infrequent for me.

does that answer your question?

 

[Guesty]

all goals can be prevented, , but football would be very fucking dull if every game were 0-0
tell how do you recognise when a full back likes a shot
had he had 6 or 7 already

He had had at least two pops from distance already, yes. One of them was in the first half after the whistle had already gone (leading to some grumblings about a booking for kicking the ball away). I recognised it and I just pay to watch, the professionals on the field should have spotted it to. And it wasn't just him on the ball that United failed to close down, they had the ball for ages before the goal.

Tell me, why do these 'one in a million shots' keeping going in against us? Bad luck, divine intervention, incompetence?

Just saying 'well you don't often see that!' after an opponent has scored from 30 yards is not a helpful or useful response. I hop that not what Adkins told his players in the dressing room.