Hungry Players With a Point to Prove

[grafikhaus]

Totally agree with that you've got the motivation when you have things to prove.
When you've been there and financially sound the motivation isn't quite the same.

I'll stick by this. Watching some of the FA Cup today shows what up-and-coming managers are facing. Does 'desire' and 'enthusiasm' mean you're going to be a good manager? Of course not. But if you know that five bad results on the trot means you'll be worrying about paying your mortgage tends to concentrate the mind. Clough and Adkins - by dint of spending a few years as managers - mean they're probably millionaires. Simplistic? Probably. But I'd swap Flitcroft of Bury for the latter two any day.

 

[Lane Ender]

I'll stick by this. Watching some of the FA Cup today shows what up-and-coming managers are facing. Does 'desire' and 'enthusiasm' mean you're going to be a good manager? Of course not. But if you know that five bad results on the trot means you'll be worrying about paying your mortgage tends to concentrate the mind. Clough and Adkins - by dint of spending a few years as managers - mean they're probably millionaires. Simplistic? Probably. But I'd swap Flitcroft of Bury for the latter two any day.

I'm just hope we get a Bassett situation with Adkins he had great success with Wimbledon if Adkins can't get up for it with us he might as well pack football up.

 

[The Bohemian]

Being objective, how were Quinn and Bromby not a sideways step? McDonald was released by Burnley, to come to League One, which would seem like a step down in level to me.

Quinn and Bromby joined from a very poor Div 3 side. I included McDonald as a Sideways because of his failure to establish himself as a first team regular at Burnley (51 appearances over 3 seasons and loaned out to Scunny and Notts County before joining us).

Evans had made an appearance for Man City and played ~30 games for Norwich before signing for us. Clear step up still?

Fair point, my criteria is just that "my criteria" and you have every right to challenge it. I'd still argue that Evans was as yet unproven and hungry when he signed for The Blades though.

And that's ignoring the arbitrary selection process for the list that's included LJF, who managed 25 games, as one of our "most successful players".

You appear to have misquoted me here?

Even ignoring all of that, given the sample size you're probably still not showing anything statistically significant and a standard deviation the other way would leave you saying that taking players sideways was clearly the best policy.

I never suggested was statistically valid - purely a hunch backed by some data, which suggests that successful Blades teams in recent times and the Bassett era, were made up mainly of players from the Up and Sideways list, with the odd Academy graduate and Down-lister thrown in.

So which players from our last three games, say, - two bad defeats, and a win against a Division 6 team - lack desire?

Or which players still in the first team squad lack desire?

I believe that players on the Up are more likely to show more desire, more consistently, than those signed from a higher level. If you want names, the current players I observe with the greatest desire are: Brayford, Collins, Wallace K, Basham, Reed, JCR, Done and Sharp. Some fall short on ability and to win promotion we need both - Attitude x Ability = Performance.

I think I am right in saying that all of the close season signings in 2005 were made from clubs at the same or higher level: these were the players who improved on 2 8th placed finishes.

That was our last promoted side, and it's make up is the opposite of what you describe.

As Bergen's analysis showed - the only first team regulars on the Down list from the 2006 promotion team were Unsworth and Short (and Short only played 20 odd games due to injury).

 

[Geordie Blade]

If you're including the 2002/3 squad that lost the play-off final, then you need to include Howard Kendall's play-off team too, and also Blackwell's play-off finalists. I suspect there would be a lot of 'downs' in there, which would counter your argument. As has been mentioned before, hunger isn't necessarily linked with the 'up' or 'down' status. There are plenty of lazy youngsters and just as many hardworking veterans.

 

[Grappler]

Not really, Craig Short was excellent in his short time with us (how we could do with a centre half of his stature now) and I rate Brayford very highly and would never question his commitment. Balance (which we still lack!) and experience are both important but not at the expense of desire.

Is it just my memory (and a load or Tequila and Mexican beer) or were players like Craig Short, David Unsworth and Chris Morgan all built like brick shithouses compared to our modern back four players? We all talk about Morgan being tough, and no-nonsense in his approach, but Short seemed similar and Unsowrth could have had a side line working on night club doors (from memory)

 

[1889]

Up, down, side to side and upside down, it's about personal pride, a love of the game and a determination to give absolutely everything you've got right up to the final whistle. Utd have had loads of players who have come down the leagues, like McCall, Speed, McGrath, Short, Shipperley all still had a great passion for the game, led by example and were part of a successful team. In fact, one of the hardest working players I've seen at Utd was Dean Saunders and he certainly had nothing to prove, but clearly just loved to play football. Such enthusiasm is infectious, it lifts the team and the crowd, whether exhibited by the veteran or the novice, it is priceless.

 

[Revolution]

As Bergen's analysis showed - the only first team regulars on the Down list from the 2006 promotion team were Unsworth and Short (and Short only played 20 odd games due to injury).

There is also, Neil Shipperley signed from a PL team (where he hadn't played much admittedly). He was very important.

Plus I said they were all "down" or "sideways" - Paul Ifill and Keith Gillespie were both sideways moves.

Of these players - Short, Unsworth, Ifill, Gillespie and Shipperley - only Ifill had not played at a higher level. All of them except Ifill were on the down slopes of their career. And yet the all played crucial roles in the promotion team, adding the steel and experience that it needed and also bringing goals and assists to the table.

The evidence seems to show that Warnock built a promotion team by adding these experienced players to a good young core (Kabba, Tonge, Jags, Webber, Bromby, Quinn, Geary, Kozluk, Kenny, Armstrong). Chris Morgan was a little older. That core had missed promotion the previous 2 or 3 years, and perhaps needed the extra experience to get promoted.

I think that's where the evidence takes us in the case of 2005-6. I'd be interested in your take and what others think.

What is interesting about the younger players is that most of them had played a significant number of Championship games - over 100 each by and large. That is interesting to me: they were more seasoned than, say, Reed or Adams is now, Of course there is no chance of us keeping the likes of Adams for 100 games.

 

[Silent Blade]

In 1985 we signed a lot of "down" players but our league position at the end of the 1985-86 season was better than in the previous season.We had spent so much and failed to get promotion. Most of the players we had signed were "worthless" at the end of their contracts

 

[grafikhaus]

I'm just hope we get a Bassett situation with Adkins he had great success with Wimbledon if Adkins can't get up for it with us he might as well pack football up.

Or maybe 'in the right place at the right time'? Klopp didn't pack Dortmund in to go to Bayern for no good reason. As much as we thought we'd got lucky with Adkins & Clough, it could be they who had a run of good fortune with Southampton & ...well nobody apart from having your old man's name..., Liverpool fans think Klopp will restore their fortunes. He won't.

 

[itsinyerblood]

The thing is all managers make duff signings, I'll see your Martyn Woolford and I'll raise you Willie Falconer and Geoff Horsfield.

The common denominator between NW and Bassett is that they had time to build a side. Adkins should be allowed to do the same. Big clear out needed this summer whichever division we're in.

You're completely right Rodley, all managers take a gamble on players they think can improve their team. Isn't that a part of a manager's role, to see if he can pick a player who can add something extra? Alex Ferguson bought a few who were never able to repay his faith, so it is with every team. The best you can hope for is that every so often we sign a Che Adams for a relatively small amount, who'll repay that faith twenty-fold. Leicester seem to have a gem on their hands in Vardy, I believe his fee (then a non-league record) was £1 million, but that has now turned into a player that can probably be conservatively valued at £20 million?

But back to acquisitions, each transfer is a risk. Of course you can play percentages and hope player x returns a manager's faith, but generally I suppose judgement is based on a manager's experience and track record in the transfer market.

 

[1danewhitehouse]

I think the way players are classified falsely represents the demographic. Players with experience of the relevant league or even the one above who have been relegated (Quinn, Bromby etc) being classed as up but someone like McDonald who has fallen out of favour at Burnley not being classed as down. Not sure how Ifill was an up either. He was one of the Championship’s best players when we signed him. Morgan was a pro with experience of the top 2 divisions.