Hungry Players With a Point to Prove

[The Bohemian]

“Don’t sign players on their way down – they think they’re doing you a f****** favour!”

So said Mick Hennigan, Howard Wilkinson’s Assistant at the time, to a group of us, after a coaching session in the 80s. Hennigan’s preference was to sign players who still had a point to prove.

I was reminded of this conversation when reading Bergen’s post below, which identifies the most successful Blades teams in recent times.

http://www.s24su.com/forum/index.php?threads/learning-from-history.42726/#post-859803

I’ve sorted Bergen’s player list under the headings:

Up: players signed from a lower level

Down: players signed from a higher level

Sideways: players signed from the same level

Academy: players developed from the club’s Academy or youth system.


For the sake of clarity, all players signed from Scottish football are treated as Up, as are young players not established at first team level from any other club.


Up
Kenny
Morgan
Ifill
Quinn A
Kabba
Bromby
Collins
LJF
Evans
Howard
Harris
Coady
Scougall
Flynn
Murphy

Down
Short
Unsworth
Brayford
Simonsen

Sideways
Baxter
McDonald
Doyle
Cresswell
Shipperley
Williamson

Academy
Monty
Jags
Maguire
Lowton
Quinn


The 30 strong list is dominated, numerically, by Up players with only 4 of the players listed signed from a higher level. That’s 4 players spread over 3 relatively successful squads.

Looking further back to Bassett’s 1988-89 Third Division promotion team and the same pattern emerges. Bassett’s first eleven included 7 Up players (Treacy, Pike, Stancliffe, Bryson, Roberts, Agana and Deane), 2 players (Whitehouse and Wilder) from the Youth ranks, one Sideways (Booker) and just one Down player - Steve Thompson - who was a Blades supporter. Again the emphasis was placed on signing players on the Up.


1988-89

Up
Tracey (Wimbledon)
Pike (Peterborough)
Stancliffe (Rotherham)
Bryson (Kilmarnock)
Roberts (Darlington)
Agana (Watford reserve)
Deane (Doncaster)

Down
Thompson (Leicester)

Sideways
Booker (Brentford)

Academy
WIlder
Whitehouse


Contrast this with the current squad, which includes 7 players in the Down section (Brayford, Coutts, Edgar, Hammond, Sharp, Sammon and Woolford), 5 of whom could be regarded as first team regulars when fit.

Hennigan believed in signing hungry players, who still had a point to prove. Players, irrespective of ability, who could be relied upon to give everything: week in, week out.

Division 3 is full of teams with limited resources, made up of aspiring, hungry players who need to earn a living. How much of a shift can we realistically expect from a team reliant on multi-millionaire, recent Premier League and Championship players?

Most worryingly all Adkins’s signings fit into the Down category. Whilst they may be technically proficient, how much do they really fancy the blood and thunder of Division 3, with a frustrated and animated fan base on their backs?

To his eternal credit, Billy is the only Down player who, to my eyes, gives his all, every game. It’s perhaps not surprising that he seems to care more than the others, given: “he’s one of our own.”

Many of us on this forum felt last season’s squad required only 2 or 3 smart additions to become promotion winners. This analysis required some modification once Murphy was sold. Nevertheless - with Che’s progression - a central defender, holding midfielder and a striker should still have done the job.

Adkins has got his very expensive looking recruitment spectacularly wrong and created a team, which lacks balance, bite and, most worryingly, desire.

This season’s Division 3 lacks an outstanding team, which may still offer encouragement to turn things around in the second half of the season. To do so, Adkins needs to offload his current, expensive passengers and look Down or Sideways for the best talent in the lower leagues and only Up for young players, as yet un-established, in a higher league. January is make or break for Adkins and The Blades.

 

[GreasyChipBeattie]

Having just missed out on qualifying for both the World Cup 2014 and European 2016, I tend to agree, but it will be another big ask with Portugal and Switzerland in their group when the World Cup 2018 qualifiers begin..

 

[Tyler Durden]

I think we signed some very effective 'down' players during Warnock era especially. McCall, Allison, Shipperley, Naysmith and Gillespie to name a few. They all contributed significantly in their time with us.

Later on, we had Speed and Cresswell.

Even today I would argue that JCR- despite his shortcomings such as dodgy crossing and running into blind allies- offers more of a threat than anyone else. You'd be forgiven for thinking that he's the young, hungry, up and coming starlet in our team.

'Down' players are worth their weight in gold if you get the right ones. You just need that balance of youth and experience.

 

[Rodley]

I don't think you can question Brayford's commitment. Him, Billy, Bob Harris, maybe Collo (not a fan of him), JCR are the senior players who actually seem up for it.

 

[Rodley]

I don't think you can question Brayford's commitment. Him, Billy, Bob Harris, maybe Collo (not a fan of him), JCR are the senior players who actually seem up for it.

I'd add Scougall into that as well. He tries to put himself about.

 

[William Henry Foulkes]

OP started by labelling a group of players Down. It seems reasonable to infer that any conclusions had already been reached at that point.

Then there's the assertion that Adkins signings are expensively and spectacularly wrong.

We need youth and experience. A little snapshot yesterday was Coutts pointing out to Che who he should be marking.

Then there's the benefit of experience in pressure games at the end of the season.

We need balance.

 

[Revolution]

I think the OP needs to check what divisions Rotherham and Wimbledon were in when Stan and Tracey were signed.

More seriously, I don't think the evidence being presented is accurate and doesn't support the conclusion that's been reached.

To give just 1 example, Tracey had played 1 league game when Bassett signed him. At the start of 1988-9 Stan had played about 450 and was a down player - we'd just been relegated. You cannot group these two players together ( plus the keeper for 80 per cent of that season was another "down" player - Benstead played 39 league games). It doesn't prove anything.

This is interesting analysis but it's flawed.

Where the players come from doesn't matter. How good they are matters.

 

[The Bohemian]

I think we signed some very effective 'down' players during Warnock era especially. McCall, Allison, Shipperley, Naysmith and Gillespie to name a few. They all contributed significantly in their time with us.

Later on, we had Speed and Cresswell.

Even today I would argue that JCR- despite his shortcomings such as dodgy crossing and running into blind allies- offers more of a threat than anyone else. You'd be forgiven for thinking that he's the young, hungry, up and coming starlet in our team.

'Down' players are worth their weight in gold if you get the right ones. You just need that balance of youth and experience.

You've focused on age, which I didn't mention and doesn't appear to be a major factor. It's more about where a player moves from (e.g. Allison from Tranmere) and your JCR point reinforces this - he made clear how he regarded his move to The Blades as the high-point in his career.

The focus is also on Blades teams that achieved a measure of success and several on your list, despite being good players, e.g. Speed and Naysmith, fall down on this criteria.

McCall, although technically a Sideways (came from Bradford in same division) was really, given his career, a Down and was part of the successful 2002-03 team which reached two semi-finals and the play-off final. I would rank him as one of the few exceptions.

 

[The Bohemian]

I don't think you can question Brayford's commitment. Him, Billy, Bob Harris, maybe Collo (not a fan of him), JCR are the senior players who actually seem up for it.

I agree, and Brayford seems exceptional in many respects.

 

[The Bohemian]

I think the OP needs to check what divisions Rotherham and Wimbledon were in when Stan and Tracey were signed.

More seriously, I don't think the evidence being presented is accurate and doesn't support the conclusion that's been reached.

To give just 1 example, Tracey had played 1 league game when Bassett signed him. At the start of 1988-9 Stan had played about 450 and was a down player - we'd just been relegated. You cannot group these two players together ( plus the keeper for 80 per cent of that season was another "down" player - Benstead played 39 league games). It doesn't prove anything.

This is interesting analysis but it's flawed.

Where the players come from doesn't matter. How good they are matters.

Tracey, by the criteria used, was an Up but Stancliffe, as you rightly point out, was a Sideways. The point is both were taking a step upwards in their career and, irrespective of Stan's 450 games, he still needed to earn a living. Benstead had played only 34 games across 3 clubs, so was unestablished before signing for The Blades and hence is another Up.

 

[grafikhaus]

Maybe a more valid thread would be 'hungry managers with a point to prove'?

 

[Revolution]

Tracey, by the criteria used, was an Up but Stancliffe, as you rightly point out, was a Sideways. The point is both were taking a step upwards in their career and, irrespective of Stan's 450 games, he still needed to earn a living. Benstead had played only 34 games across 3 clubs, so was unestablished before signing for The Blades and hence is another Up.

You sound like you're making up exceptions to your criteria to justify your conclusions.

As I say, it's interesting, but it does not support the conclusion you draw.

 

[The Bohemian]

OP started by labelling a group of players Down. It seems reasonable to infer that any conclusions had already been reached at that point.

Then there's the assertion that Adkins signings are expensively and spectacularly wrong.

We need youth and experience. A little snapshot yesterday was Coutts pointing out to Che who he should be marking.

Then there's the benefit of experience in pressure games at the end of the season.

We need balance.

Not really, Craig Short was excellent in his short time with us (how we could do with a centre half of his stature now) and I rate Brayford very highly and would never question his commitment. Balance (which we still lack!) and experience are both important but not at the expense of desire.

 

[Revolution]

Not really, Craig Short was excellent in his short time with us (how we could do with a centre half of his stature now) and I rate Brayford very highly and would never question his commitment. Balance (which we still lack!) and experience are both important but not at the expense of desire.

It is subjective but desire is much less important than the think you do not mention. Ability.

And experience can be more important than desire.

 

[The Bohemian]

You sound like you're making up exceptions to your criteria to justify your conclusions.

As I say, it's interesting, but it does not support the conclusion you draw.

These were my original headings Rev:

"Up: players signed from a lower level

Down: players signed from a higher level

Sideways: players signed from the same level

Academy: players developed from the club’s academy or youth system.

For the sake of clarity, all players signed from Scottish football are treated as Up, as are young players not established at first team level from any other club."


My central point is past evidence demonstrates that the more successful Blades teams in recent history, and the last one to get us out of Div 3 are characterised by hungry players with a point to prove with very few signed from a higher level. I accept the possibility that further research may disprove this but your examples don't.

 

[The Bohemian]

It is subjective but desire is much less important than the think you do not mention. Ability.

And experience can be more important than desire.

Yes, of course, we won't get anywhere without ability and good, relevant experience is also important. However, unless we at least match our opponents with desire, any ability advantage is quickly lost. This becomes even more of an issue at Bramall Lane in Div 3, where every team arrives with a cup final mentality, determined to put one over the League One big-hitters.

 

[JohnDenver]

Adkins has got his very expensive looking recruitment spectacularly wrong and created a team, which lacks balance, bite and, most worryingly, desire.

The only expensive recruit is Sharp, who's been our player of the season so far. Sadly the rest is correct.

 

[Revolution]

These were my original headings Rev:

"Up: players signed from a lower level

Down: players signed from a higher level

Sideways: players signed from the same level

Academy: players developed from the club’s academy or youth system.

For the sake of clarity, all players signed from Scottish football are treated as Up, as are young players not established at first team level from any other club."


My central point is past evidence demonstrates that the more successful Blades teams in recent history, and the last one to get us out of Div 3 are characterised by hungry players with a point to prove with very few signed from a higher level. I accept the possibility that further research may disprove this but your examples don't.

I think I am right in saying that all of the close season signings in 2005 were made from clubs at the same or higher level: these were the players who improved on 2 8th placed finishes.

That was our last promoted side, and it's make up is the opposite of what you describe.

 

[LoughboroBlade]

Up
Kenny
Morgan
Ifill
Quinn A
Kabba
Bromby
Collins
LJF
Evans
Howard
Harris
Coady
Scougall
Flynn
Murphy

Interesting post, and coincidentally I recall Warnock getting a lot of grief for his "bargain basement" approach to signings at times. It's also the case that in amongst the gems he picked up a lot of duds who despite success lower down couldn't step up – people like Luke Beckett.

On some of your Ups, Paul Ifill was surely signed from Milwall when they were still in the Championship. And while Coady fits into the 'not established in first team' Evans had featured in enough games to be classified as 'down' in my opinion – it clearly looked like he was having to step down to get regular football, which frankly isn't dissimilar to any player in the league above that is well out of the first team picture (e.g. Bradford when he was loaned to us).

An interesting (and much larger) piece of analysis would be to take every signing we've made from say the last 15 years, categorise them as you have, and have a simple Hit or Miss verdict.

 

[Lane Ender]

Maybe a more valid thread would be 'hungry managers with a point to prove'?

Totally agree with that you've got the motivation when you have things to prove.
When you've been there and financially sound the motivation isn't quite the same.

 

[maidmarion]

Don't care if they are up down sideways or whatever....if you pull on a Blades shirt you should be prepared to die......
Just my opinion for what it's worth

 

[coaxingstar71]

I think it's too much of a generalisation to say that signing an experienced played from a league above means they aren't as hungry or vice versa. Although it's fairly obvious that a player signed from a lower club is going to want to prove himself and do well, there are many instances of players signed from "higher" teams who probably feel they have a point to prove as well.

Take Michael Brown for instance - signed from Manchester City who were in Prem and he'd got himself a reputation as a 'bad boy'. Would you consider him a 'down' signing? If anything, Warnock was clever in managing him and got the best out of him.

I thought David Unsworth was excellent for us.
James Beattie anyone?

 

[Silent Blade]

Academy
WIlder

Never played for our youth team. We signed him from Southampton in summer 1986 and he went straight in our reserves team

Interesting post BTW

 

[Bergen Blade]

Neil Warnock always used to mention that he thought the experienced new signings "had a point to prove". Sometimes he found out he was wrong or that it wasn't enough, i.e. Hayles, Onuora, Horsfield, Akinbiyi, Flitcroft, etc.

 

[robbiez666]

Given it's a beautiful day, I had a go at this.

The first rating (up/down etc) is the trajectory in terms of career when they joined us. The second is where I believe their career is likely to go.

From yesterday's starting XI I'd define them as:

Long - Youth - Had a great start but petered out and the attempts to resurrect his career have been this far unsuccessful.(down)
Harris - Sideways/Down - Again, from Blackpool after success in Scotland. Stepped down a division as not good enough. Deserves every credit in the book for allowing us to swap McMahon (sideways) started well under Clough but defensively frail (sideways)
Collins - Down - Sunderland and Wolves were his career highlights. Not considered good enough for Leeds and came to us (down)
Basham - Down - Not considered good enough to be a midfielder at Blackpool. Not considered good enough to be one here. Dies a job at CB but not the answer as lacks physicality. (down)
Freeman - Up - Played a fair few for Derby in a higher league but mainly knocked about the Midlands on loan. This is his first good run at a club and he's improving for it.(up)
Coutts - Down - Considered to be a talent pre-injury. Not looked the same player since (down)
Hammond - Down - reaching the end of his career and not the player he used to be (down)
Baxter - Down/Sideways - Considered a talent at Everton and took the step down for regular football at Oldham. Still surprisingly young (albeit he moves like a 35 year old, He was considered something special at Oldham but struggled to hold down a place here. I think, if the attitude changed, he could potentially play in the league above but it could be the next move he takes is down. Still enough talent and young enough to potentially interest a team in the Championship.(down)
JCR - Down/Sideways - Has his moments but a journeyman. Has struggled to hold a starting place down, possibly due to consistency and condition. (down)
Che - Up - Very raw but will improve from playing regularly (and will be inevitably sold) (up)
Sammon - Down - This isn't a loan move that will kick-start his championship career. League 1 will be his home next season.(down)

Subs

Scougal - Up - After a promising start looks out of his depth in terms of physique and I can;t see him playing at a higher level (down)
Sharp - Down - Down, but a fighter. Getting a player who has played at the highest level he'll be but is willing to give it all (we've had a few upfront in modern times) is not necessarily a bad thing (sideways)
Done - Up - Stepped up to us from Rochdale. Had a few injuries but seems to not be good enough or want to play on the wing. Needs to be used as a forward.(sideways/up)
McGahey - Highly thought of at Blackpool. Not really shown any of that here but there are signs he could improve (sideways)
Howard - Down - Started with Arsenal then passed around several other clubs but hardly played until St Mirren. Went up to Aberdeen and Blackpool and down to us.(down)
Reed - Youth - lacks stature but for his age has had some good games. He needs to play more but I think he's a likely to improve with age (up)
K Wallace - (Up) - After a dreadful start he's been one of the best players this season in a new position of left back (up)

All in all, the majority seems to be on a downward or sideways career path for me.

Adams and Wallace are on the up
Done is in a difficult spot we're making worse by playing him as a winger. He needs to play as a forward. Definitely has the potential there to play at a higher level.
Reed - He needs to play more but I think he has the potential to play at a higher level.
Freeman - He's clearly improved from playing regularly, which will likely change when Beard returns.

I think the rest are likely to be on the way backwards or sideways (like their passing )

We've said Baxter needs to knuckle down since he joined. I can't see it happening.

They all need to understand the need for movement and determination. I'd send them all to dancing classes. They need to learn how to keep moving and stay on their toes. (the dancers might show some of them how to tackle as well)

 

[William Henry Foulkes]

Not really, Craig Short was excellent in his short time with us (how we could do with a centre half of his stature now) and I rate Brayford very highly and would never question his commitment. Balance (which we still lack!) and experience are both important but not at the expense of desire.

So which players from our last three games, say, - two bad defeats, and a win against a Division 6 team - lack desire?

Or which players still in the first team squad lack desire?

 

[PokerBlade]

I think your criteria are as questionable as some of the names you've put in each list. I also don't think it's a particularly useful metric even then.

Putting Morgan as someone who took a step up is forgetting that he'd played in the Premiership with Barnsley. Being objective, how were Quinn and Bromby not a sideways step? McDonald was released by Burnley, to come to League One, which would seem like a step down in level to me.

It seems dodgy to consider players a step up if they come from considerably higher but weren't established first teamers. Wasn't Coady captain of Liverpool's youth? Even if it's a step up career-wise to then move to a League One first team, it's not outside of the expectation of a promising Premiership youth to step two divisions down and continue to perform. It's the equivalent of sending some of our 18 year olds to the Conference and calling it a step up for them. It's just not that clear that we can draw much from it. Similarly, Evans had made an appearance for Man City and played ~30 games for Norwich before signing for us. Clear step up still?

And that's ignoring the arbitrary selection process for the list that's included LJF, who managed 25 games, as one of our "most successful players".

Even ignoring all of that, given the sample size you're probably still not showing anything statistically significant and a standard deviation the other way would leave you saying that taking players sideways was clearly the best policy.

 

[JJ Sefton]

Higdon never looked hungry.

 

[robbiez666]

Higdon never looked hungry.

No ones allowed to share a room with him as when he wakes up he eats the first thing he sees; lamps, curtains, maids, you name it.

 

[Rodley]

The thing is all managers make duff signings, I'll see your Martyn Woolford and I'll raise you Willie Falconer and Geoff Horsfield.

The common denominator between NW and Bassett is that they had time to build a side. Adkins should be allowed to do the same. Big clear out needed this summer whichever division we're in.