HRH quest to purchase the club's assets - Star article

[Sothall_Blade]

The price for the shares would then soar. If he's going to make significant investment it'd be cheaper to buy it now and reap all the PL benefits himself. The downside of buying the club in the championship is covering the losses whilst in this division as well as funding transfers.

If he has to buy the hotel, despite what some claim, that's loses money as well.

Who will blink first?

The hotel loses money? How is that possible? If true, why not just close it and avoid making further losses?

 

[Sean Thornton]

The hotel loses money? How is that possible? If true, why not just close it and avoid making further losses?

It doesn't get enough customers through the door. It's not hard to work out. Why would you think it's HAS to be turning a profit?

If it closes, it'll still lose money and the market value will crash.

 

[Worksop II]

The hotel loses money? How is that possible? If true, why not just close it and avoid making further losses?

I think the Hotel Operates and makes money, but alongside that you still have the cost of building it, which takes it into a loss

Originally the Club for a short time had this cost, but McCabe took it over, paying a pound, but taking on the debt.

He has promised to return the Hotel back to the Club when the time is right ... I expect on promotion to the PL the Club will be lumbered with the Hotel again

With a huge amount of the PL money going the other way

This is something he wants the Prince to swallow, a loss making Hotel, but then Kev likes building things

 

[Sothall_Blade]

It doesn't get enough customers through the door. It's not hard to work out. Why would you think it's HAS to be turning a profit?

If it closes, it'll still lose money and the market value will crash.

It has to be making an operating profit (which it is) or there would obviously be no point opening the doors if you're going to lose more money by doing so.
My mortgage payments mean that my house is "losing me money" but I wouldn't put it like that because I need a house and I will obviously own the house at the end of the mortgage.

Does anybody know when the loan is due to be paid off and the hotel will actually start making an overall profit?

 

[Sean Thornton]

I think the Hotel Operates and makes money, but alongside that you still have the cost of building it, which takes it into a loss"




No. It operates as a loss. The cost of building it isn't a P&L item. Revaluations are included though.

It's now valued at less than the building cost.




"Originally the Club for a short time had this cost, but McCabe took it over, paying a pound, but taking on the debt"


Everyone fixates on the £1 nonsense. Simply asset for debt.




"He has promised to return the Hotel back to the Club when the time is right ... I expect on promotion to the PL the Club will be lumbered with the Hotel again"




If it operates at a profit as you say, what's the problem!





"With a huge amount of the PL money going the other way"


These things had valuations to ascertain a value. McCabe will have lost money on at unless it's valuation suddenly increases by £10m



"This is something he wants the Prince to swallow, a loss making Hotel"


Reading the article, it looks like HRH signed up for it.




but then Kev likes building things

 

[Sean Thornton]

It has to be making an operating profit (which it is) or there would obviously be no point opening the doors if you're going to lose more money by doing so.
My mortgage payments mean that my house is "losing me money" but I wouldn't put it like that because I need a house and I will obviously own the house at the end of the mortgage.

Does anybody know when the loan is due to be paid off and the hotel will actually start making an overall profit?

View attachment 37774

You can't use the personal mortgage analysis because you live in your house. It's a nonsense argument. It's a business. Your mortgage payments aren't losing you money. How can they be.

Without the borrowed money to build it it wouldn't be there in the first place. The business loses money, whether you like it or not.

The loans are owing to group companies. Who are funding the losses although charging interest. It's unlikely to make a profit soon unless there is a huge uptake in room reservations.

 

[Esablade]

'Twas ever thus. A 50% share in a seriously loss making business is generally worth bugger all. The difference here that the business in question suddenly looks like it might have a season in the Premier, with all the wonderful riches that brings (circa £200m).

WILDER OUT!

 

[Sean Thornton]

It has to be making an operating profit (which it is) or there would obviously be no point opening the doors if you're going to lose more money by doing so.
My mortgage payments mean that my house is "losing me money" but I wouldn't put it like that because I need a house and I will obviously own the house at the end of the mortgage.

Does anybody know when the loan is due to be paid off and the hotel will actually start making an overall profit?

View attachment 37774

It made an operating loss in 2013. If only the doors had benn closed then all McCabe would have to pay would be rates on an empty building. Security costs and interest on loans. With no income. I bet he's gutted he didn't think of that.

 

[Sothall_Blade]

You can't use the personal mortgage analysis because you live in your house. It's a nonsense argument. It's a business. Your mortgage payments aren't losing you money. How can they be.

Without the borrowed money to build it it wouldn't be there in the first place. The business loses money, whether you like it or not.

The loans are owing to group companies. Who are funding the losses although charging interest. It's unlikely to make a profit soon unless there is a huge uptake in room reservations.

That's what I said. My house isn't really losing me money because when it's paid for I will have a house.

It made an operating loss in 2013. If only the doors had benn closed then all McCabe would have to pay would be rates on an empty building. Security costs and interest on loans. With no income. I bet he's gutted he didn't think of that.

Or maybe gutted that he built a permanently loss-making (according to you) hotel in the first place?

 

[Marcus Tullius Cicero]

Look, the Prince has not enough funds to float United, he wants to buy the best bits. I go into KFC and would love a bucket of thighs but have to accept breasts and wings in the deal. No matter how much I argue, the chicken (I mean deal) gets colder and colder. No body wants to eat cold chicken so we fire up another deal, this also might finish in cold chicken. Eventually after everyone gets their fair amount of thighs we the man on the street can pick over the bones and think it is a feast.

 

[Sean Thornton]

That's what I said. My house isn't really losing me money because when it's paid for I will have a house.



Or maybe gutted that he built a permanently loss-making (according to you) hotel in the first place?

And on that basis you don't believe interest should be taken into account when computing profits?

You've found the P&L account, look on the balance sheet notes. If you can, you'll see accumulated losses of £7.6m. That's not according to me that's according to the auditors. Does your accountancy knowledge outweigh theirs as well?

The hotel loses money. McCabe funds it without bank borrowing. Thems the facts, sorry, but feel free to point out where it makes this profit you believe it must.

 

[Wapping Blade]

He can't as he doesn't own it, he only has 50%. HRH has the other 50% so it is a game of brinkmanship.

Separately KM owns BDTBL, Shirecliffe etc but leases are in place and so anyone buying the football club wouldn't strictly need to buy these to begin with.



'Twas ever thus. A 50% share in a seriously loss making business is generally worth bugger all. The difference here that the business in question suddenly looks like it might have a season in the Premier, with all the wonderful riches that brings (circa £200m).

Haha - I remember when we were looking to acquire/merge with some loss making BT Businesses (to turn round) and their faces when we told them they were worth £0 Transaction never happened.

 

[I should coco]

It has to be making an operating profit (which it is) or there would obviously be no point opening the doors if you're going to lose more money by doing so.

Per the figures you posted the operating profit is 2.5% of turnover. That is pitifully small given all the risks of running a business and even after the loan is paid off it would be a pathetic return.

As Sean Thornton says, businesses borrow money because it is tax efficient to do so (i.e deductible from Corporation Tax profits which shareholder dividends aren't). This is why they gear up and take on new projects, so borrowing is the norm and not something that is an inconvenience until it is 'paid off'.

For whatever reason the hotel isn't turning over enough to give a decent profit. Either they have to discount the room rates too steeply or they haven't got the volume of bookings.

Still I suppose there are plenty out there who think that KM stands behind reception pocketing the mainly cash receipts in between fudging the accounts.

 

[Sothall_Blade]

And on that basis you don't believe interest should be taken into account when computing profits?

You've found the P&L account, look on the balance sheet notes. If you can, you'll see accumulated losses of £7.6m. That's not according to me that's according to the auditors. Does your accountancy knowledge outweigh theirs as well?

The hotel loses money. McCabe funds it without bank borrowing. Thems the facts, sorry, but feel free to point out where it makes this profit you believe it must.

You said the loans are owing to other group companies, so the interest is being paid to them.
Therefore it's not being lost by the company as a whole.

If the hotel loses money and always will, please feel free to point out why McCabe built it in the first place?

 

[Isar]

Bottom line is are we worth more than wednesday

 

[Worksop II]

Still I suppose there are plenty out there who think that KM stands behind reception pocketing the mainly cash receipts in between fudging the accounts.

He gets a share of the waiters tips .........

 

[Sean Thornton]

You said the loans are owing to other group companies, so the interest is being paid to them.
Therefore it's not being lost by the company as a whole.

If the hotel loses money and always will, please feel free to point out why McCabe built it in the first place?

Of course it's being lost by the company. Supposing the company it's owed to has bank borrowings that it pays interest on?

You need to think things through a bit further than just trying to prove your observations are correct with waffle. Did you check on the accumulated losses? Only you've not mentioned it.





Jesus Christ. Another utterly stupid question. Feel free to try and understand he will have built it WITH THE EXPECTATION OF MAKING MONEY! What other reason- please don't come up with some nonsense about tax losses either. His group is awash with them. Not every business makes money, but any legitimate business wants to. You seem unable to grasp that point. According to you, he should shut the place and just lose money that way. That's not really sound advice is it? Perhaps you should think about some of your statements before tapping on the keys, save looking daft.

 

[Dkc]

Look, the Prince has not enough funds to float United, he wants to buy the best bits. I go into KFC and would love a bucket of thighs but have to accept breasts and wings in the deal. No matter how much I argue, the chicken (I mean deal) gets colder and colder. No body wants to eat cold chicken so we fire up another deal, this also might finish in cold chicken. Eventually after everyone gets their fair amount of thighs we the man on the street can pick over the bones and think it is a feast.

Thanks, that excellent analogy has made things much clearer

 

[Sothall_Blade]

Of course it's being lost by the company. Supposing the company it's owed to has bank borrowings that it pays interest on?

You need to think things through a bit further than just trying to prove your observations are correct with waffle. Did you check on the accumulated losses? Only you've not mentioned it.

Jesus Christ. Another utterly stupid question. Feel free to try and understand he will have built it WITH THE EXPECTATION OF MAKING MONEY! What other reason- please don't come up with some nonsense about tax losses either. His group is awash with them. Not every business makes money, but any legitimate business wants to. You seem unable to grasp that point. According to you, he should shut the place and just lose money that way. That's not really sound advice is it? Perhaps you should think about some of your statements before tapping on the keys, save looking daft.

You don't half get overly stroppy for no apparent reason.
Fine, it's just another f*** up by McCabe to add to his collection then.
Sheffield United Football Club have lost a chunk of land and only the bank will ever make money out of it.
Good to know.

 

[Nicolaus_Copernicus]

I'd say that it's not the ideal way to develop & run a hotel, as Copthorne appears to occupy as an operator as opposed to Tenant. Unless they occupy under a Lease that isn't registrable, which would be rare.

 

[Sean Thornton]

You don't half get overly stroppy for no apparent reason.
Fine, it's just another f*** up by McCabe to add to his collection then.
Sheffield United Football Club have lost a chunk of land and only the bank will ever make money out of it.
Good to know.

Stupid questions based on what you believe rather than the facts which you invariably question with little knowledge tend to be frustrating. It's not like it's not happened before is it?

At least you've got a handle on it though. Or almost. McCabe owns the land. He's owned the land since he bought the club. Whatever subsidiary the land sat in, sits in or whatever, he owns it. hes always owned it. When it was on the FC's balance sheet, guess what? He still owned it. It's his. Now I know you won't believe me, but SU Ltd loses money as well. So by taking two loss making assets out of the club - and the debt that goes with it - he's actually safeguarded the football club.

 

[I should coco]

So by taking two loss making assets out of the club

Yeah, but they wunna made a loss if it weren't for the loans. It's in the accounts, innit.

It's all a tax fiddle so that McCabe dun't have to pay the money tree back.

#weer'ssemifinalmonehgone

 

[Nicolaus_Copernicus]

The freehold is owned by Sheffield United Football Club, and it is held on a 999 yr lease by Sheffield United (Hotel) Limited from 17th February 2009.

 

[Blade58]

All the article says to me is that the Prince is waiting to see if we get promoted, then he'll consider it if the price is right..

Then why has the clause been triggered now?

 

[Worksop II]

only the bank will ever make money out of it.

Ah but, if you keep building things on the Land, Hotel, Forsyth Centre .... soon to be Student Flats the Value increases ... in Kevs head

He just needs some mug to buy it all .... enter Princey

Kev "Look at these fine renderings of the Kop Expansion"

The Prince "Kev, you aren't wearing any pants"

Kev "Yes I am, they're the finest in the Land"

The Prince "I'm off .... fuckin infidel"

 

[UnitedBlade]

The freehold is owned by Sheffield United Football Club, and it is held on a 999 yr lease by Sheffield United (Hotel) Limited from 17th February 2009.

I don’t think the FC owns the freehold as that would mean the Prince has 50%.

Sheffield United Limited (wholly owned by Scarborough Group ie the McCabes) own all the property.

All the property bits are now separated but owned by SU ltd. The Prince has to buy all these if he wants to buy out the remaining 50% of Blades Leisure / SUFC.

 

[Nicolaus_Copernicus]

I don’t think the FC owns the freehold as that would mean the Prince has 50%.

Sheffield United Limited (wholly owned by Scarborough Group ie the McCabes) own all the property.

All the property bits are now separated but owned by SU ltd. The Prince has to buy all these if he wants to buy out the remaining 50% of Blades Leisure / SUFC.

I've just checked the Land Registry and you're correct. The Bramall Lane Freeholds, of which the Hotel forms part, were transferred over to Sheffield United Ltd on 1st August 2012 for £20.02m. The Register Extract also makes reference to:

Option to purchase in favour of Sheffield United Football Club Limited contained in an Agreement dated 30 August 2013 made between (1) Sheffield United Ltd and (2) Sheffield United Football Club Limited which will subsist up to and including 29 August 2023 together with provisions relating to the extension of the option period as therein mentioned.

 

[UnitedBlade]

I've just checked the Land Registry and you're correct. The Bramall Lane Freeholds, of which the Hotel forms part, were transferred over to Sheffield United Ltd on 1st August 2012 for £20.02m. The Register Extract also makes reference to:

Option to purchase in favour of Sheffield United Football Club Limited contained in an Agreement dated 30 August 2013 made between (1) Sheffield United Ltd and (2) Sheffield United Football Club Limited which will subsist up to and including 29 August 2023 together with provisions relating to the extension of the option period as therein mentioned.

Interesting! So the Prince has another 5 years to make his mind up.

 

[Grappler]

The freehold is owned by Sheffield United Football Club, and it is held on a 999 yr lease by Sheffield United (Hotel) Limited from 17th February 2009.

So what happens after 999 years?, can the Prince buy the hotel or not????

 

[Sharrow Snuff Mill]

So what happens after 999 years?, can the Prince buy the hotel or not????

Stick around and I`ll answer that for you when the lease is up.