How much money do we need to move forward?

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How much money do we need?

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FMBlade1

FMBlade1

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This is of course a hypothetical question and there are no guarantees in football whatsoever.

The way I see it, we are the equivalent of Everton in the Premiership. To get near the top six they have spent over a hundred million but there is still a glass ceiling preventing them from making it further. I wouldn't say they have been particularly wasteful, its just the players other clubs have are just on a different level that they are never going to be able to sign (De Bruyne, Ozil etc). Any gem they do nurture has to be sold (Rooney, Barkley Rodwell) due to the nature of football.

We cannot spend money we don't have. Simple as that. I don't want us to ever risk being the new Portsmouth Coventry Sunderland etc. as long as we are in the championship.

We need new investment and new owners of course. Sadly there are not many people out there who are able to give us a golden cheque and there is a long queue of other clubs with more potential (Newcastle, Leeds) that they'd more likely choose.

(I have banged on and on about the only way around this could be foreign scouting and tinkering with our strategy and formation, though that's for other threads).

In the cold light of day... if Wilder did have a 20 million pounds to spend including wages would that really take us up? Being honest, I doubt it and it's not a reflection on him. Moyes did wonders at Everton with next to nothing, the logic was with a bigger budget he'd be amazing at Manchester United, football is never simple.

I was of the extreme minority view when we went up that would happily accept a 21st place finish every year. The amount of good clubs in the championship makes it so similar to the PL anyway, and I'd hope we just stumble across some magic and 'do a Leicester' or something.

When I look at the question I have asked.... I have to say I am uneasy about us ever spending so much money even if we did have access to it as it could destroy our identity and be like the other team in Sheffield. There's no point spending 10 million to turn a 12th place finish to a 7th place finish.

Interested in other people's take on this

UTB
 



pommpey said:
20m would take us up

It wouldn't keep us up

pommpey
Click to expand...

Thing is if we spent 20 million and didn't go up, what then?

We have years recovering and cutting our cloth like the other team in Sheffield. I'm not saying don't spend it or that we don't need it, but we need more than money here and I just don't see it forthcoming.

What I'm really getting at, and I completely understand if others despise this mindset, is that we have gone as far as we can go for the time being and need to lower expectations.

Would be delighted to be proved wrong on this.
 
FMBlade1 said:
Thing is if we spent 20 million and didn't go up, what then?

We have years recovering and cutting our cloth like the other team in Sheffield. I'm not saying don't spend it or that we don't need it, but we need more than money here and I just don't see it forthcoming.

What I'm really getting at, and I completely understand if others despise this mindset, is that we have gone as far as we can go for the time being and need to lower expectations.

Would be delighted to be proved wrong on this.
Click to expand...
There's another team in Sheffield! I thought the city was ours?
 
In the immediate term? It's more that we need to find that quality loanee as Keith Andrews said last night, an Abraham or Wilson.
 
FriethBlade said:
You dont want to be the new Porstmouth, Sunderland, Coventry you say...well Id take any one of them...All FA Cup winners in my lifetime and all I've seen is a third and fourth division title !
Click to expand...
Add to that Wigan have won it and fucking Milwall amongst many others have made finals we have to be the most unsuccessful club of our size. One title in the two promotions achieved in the best part of Thirty years.
 
FMBlade1 said:
This is of course a hypothetical question and there are no guarantees in football whatsoever.

The way I see it, we are the equivalent of Everton in the Premiership. To get near the top six they have spent over a hundred million but there is still a glass ceiling preventing them from making it further. I wouldn't say they have been particularly wasteful, its just the players other clubs have are just on a different level that they are never going to be able to sign (De Bruyne, Ozil etc). Any gem they do nurture has to be sold (Rooney, Barkley Rodwell) due to the nature of football.

We cannot spend money we don't have. Simple as that. I don't want us to ever risk being the new Portsmouth Coventry Sunderland etc. as long as we are in the championship.

We need new investment and new owners of course. Sadly there are not many people out there who are able to give us a golden cheque and there is a long queue of other clubs with more potential (Newcastle, Leeds) that they'd more likely choose.

(I have banged on and on about the only way around this could be foreign scouting and tinkering with our strategy and formation, though that's for other threads).

In the cold light of day... if Wilder did have a 20 million pounds to spend including wages would that really take us up? Being honest, I doubt it and it's not a reflection on him. Moyes did wonders at Everton with next to nothing, the logic was with a bigger budget he'd be amazing at Manchester United, football is never simple.

I was of the extreme minority view when we went up that would happily accept a 21st place finish every year. The amount of good clubs in the championship makes it so similar to the PL anyway, and I'd hope we just stumble across some magic and 'do a Leicester' or something.

When I look at the question I have asked.... I have to say I am uneasy about us ever spending so much money even if we did have access to it as it could destroy our identity and be like the other team in Sheffield. There's no point spending 10 million to turn a 12th place finish to a 7th place finish.

Interested in other people's take on this

UTB
Click to expand...

Your question is about how much money we need, or how much money we need to spend in the transfer market? These are two totally different questions. I think you mean the latter, but the former is far more important than the latter actually.

We need a sustainable business model first and foremost. One that means we can operate the club year on year and keep it in profit. Something we haven't managed to do for several years now.

I had to laugh at your comment about not wanting us to be the new Portsmouth, Coventry, Sunderland. That's more or less what we have been until 2 years ago! OK so we haven't gone bust and gone into admin like Portsmouth did - but 6 years in League 1 was a financial disaster for us in many other ways and we've been alongside the likes of Coventry and below Sunderland until recently.

I think your question, is about transfer budget, and is very difficult to answer. It depends on where you buy players from and at what stage of their career they are at. If United were to set up a scouting network in Asia for example, they could find some talent there that comes very cheaply. But if we are looking at EU5 countries and Europe in particular, then we'll be paying through the nose. Even worse, if we are looking at the top 2 divisions in England, we'll be absolutely hung out to dry on fees. This is why I think United have to change their ways a bit in terms of being open to look at foreign players. The price of English players in the top divisions is ridiculous now and if we don't look beyond these shores we won't be able to compete at the next level up, assuming we succeed at this level. Wilder has hinted recently that he's willing to do this, I think that's a very important change in his approach and I'm much relieved to hear it tbh. Because I've always seen his reluctance to buy foreign and the club's lack of established networks to find foreign players, as being a major limitation for us.

I wouldn't want Sheffield United to be the next Man City and be bursting with money. I think that would take away from any sense of achievement for me. I'd like to think that we can play good football and win a trophy or two without actually "buying it". But it's very tough. I think if we were promoted to the Prem we'd be looking at spending a minimum of around £20m to improve the first team squad. And even that isn't a lot. But, it would be easily covered by the TV money and it wouldn't expose the club too much in terms of debt/cashflow. And I'd be confident that Wilder could get better value for his £20m than some managers get for many times that amount.
 
FMBlade1 said:
Thing is if we spent 20 million and didn't go up, what then?

We have years recovering and cutting our cloth like the other team in Sheffield. I'm not saying don't spend it or that we don't need it, but we need more than money here and I just don't see it forthcoming.

What I'm really getting at, and I completely understand if others despise this mindset, is that we have gone as far as we can go for the time being and need to lower expectations.

Would be delighted to be proved wrong on this.
Click to expand...
No we don’t. We need an owner to put £20m in and accept that he might not get it back. Not immediately and possibly not at all.

In fact, we probably need £20m to stand still, invested over the next two seasons. As a minimum.

The championship has changed beyond all recognition. I believe it’s possible to subsidise a club (you can’t break even in this league without parachute payments) by buying young players, developing them and selling them on, but every so often, you still need an injection of cash from the owners.

The sale of Brooks and the add ons we got for Walker, Maguire etc have probably covered a lot of the owners’ losses since we went up and has allowed us to compete in the upper half of the table. That will have gone soon. We need an influx of talented young players, to replace our aging forwards, we need a permanent keeper. Just to start with. Even if we sold JOC and Fleck at the end of the season, we’d struggle to replace them both and bring in the others.

£20m, if invested well (and CW has shown he can be trusted) would, if we don’t suffer misfortune, probably keep us competitive for three or four seasons (accepting that we’d probably have to sell a couple of players if we didn’t get promoted within the next two seasons).

It would by no means guarantee promotion. For that, you have to look at clubs like Brighton, who lost about £100m to get promoted.

This is why Dave Whelan sold Wigan for £20m. He did the maths, properly, without Wigan tinted specs, and realised he couldn’t afford to lose that kind of money.
 
FMBlade1 said:
Thing is if we spent 20 million and didn't go up, what then?
Click to expand...

Then we'd be like most of the teams round us, but would definitely finish with them instead of falling away.
 



FriethBlade said:
You dont want to be the new Porstmouth, Sunderland, Coventry you say...well Id take any one of them...All FA Cup winners in my lifetime and all I've seen is a third and fourth division title !
Click to expand...

That’s a common view but most of the Pompey fans say that they regret those times and prefer to be well run.

Spending 20 million is no gaurantee of success. The most ambitious we’ve ever been in our history is when we appointed Robson and that never worked out. Agree with Bushblade above, the league has changed, to make a big push we probably need to spend 40 to 50 million.

I voted that 20 million would take us forward but it still wouldn’t mean top 2.
 
FMBlade1 said:
This is of course a hypothetical question and there are no guarantees in football whatsoever.

The way I see it, we are the equivalent of Everton in the Premiership. To get near the top six they have spent over a hundred million but there is still a glass ceiling preventing them from making it further. I wouldn't say they have been particularly wasteful, its just the players other clubs have are just on a different level that they are never going to be able to sign (De Bruyne, Ozil etc). Any gem they do nurture has to be sold (Rooney, Barkley Rodwell) due to the nature of football.

We cannot spend money we don't have. Simple as that. I don't want us to ever risk being the new Portsmouth Coventry Sunderland etc. as long as we are in the championship.

We need new investment and new owners of course. Sadly there are not many people out there who are able to give us a golden cheque and there is a long queue of other clubs with more potential (Newcastle, Leeds) that they'd more likely choose.

(I have banged on and on about the only way around this could be foreign scouting and tinkering with our strategy and formation, though that's for other threads).

In the cold light of day... if Wilder did have a 20 million pounds to spend including wages would that really take us up? Being honest, I doubt it and it's not a reflection on him. Moyes did wonders at Everton with next to nothing, the logic was with a bigger budget he'd be amazing at Manchester United, football is never simple.

I was of the extreme minority view when we went up that would happily accept a 21st place finish every year. The amount of good clubs in the championship makes it so similar to the PL anyway, and I'd hope we just stumble across some magic and 'do a Leicester' or something.

When I look at the question I have asked.... I have to say I am uneasy about us ever spending so much money even if we did have access to it as it could destroy our identity and be like the other team in Sheffield. There's no point spending 10 million to turn a 12th place finish to a 7th place finish.

Interested in other people's take on this

UTB
Click to expand...
 
More than we have and more than we are likely to have in the near future. They say it's the hope that kills you. I no longer have hope. I'm not going to let United kill me. They've tried for 59 years. Fuck em.
 
I actually think relatively little would do it. We aren’t far off now which is what makes it all the more frustrating.
 
Snowman said:
More than we have and more than we are likely to have in the near future. They say it's the hope that kills you. I no longer have hope. I'm not going to let United kill me. They've tried for 59 years. Fuck em.
Click to expand...
I felt exactly the same last night driving home. Been going to the Lane since 5yrs old in the 60's & have allowed my beloved Blades to make or break a weekend/month/year/even a marriage.
I was on a major downer & looked at my 10yr old daughter smiling & thought "wtf am I still at 55 doin letting these f###ers spoil my mood??"

Havin said that: it still will
 
FMBlade1 said:
Thing is if we spent 20 million and didn't go up, what then?

We have years recovering and cutting our cloth like the other team in Sheffield. I'm not saying don't spend it or that we don't need it, but we need more than money here and I just don't see it forthcoming.

What I'm really getting at, and I completely understand if others despise this mindset, is that we have gone as far as we can go for the time being and need to lower expectations.

Would be delighted to be proved wrong on this.
Click to expand...

I think we will be lucky to recover to an automatic spot, even if by sheer miracle, the board found and approved a spend that big anyway. The impetus and momentum is now with teams who have gelled and sustained better form than us. Losing two consecutive home games against better opposition doesn't spell out consistency to me.

McCabe and HRH have made it clear. Their priorities aren't focussed on what is an unbelievable opportunity to reach further into the bigger world of footballing glory, moreover on sorting out the mistakes of the past. It's their train set, but fuck me is it disappointing or what? Same old fucking story. Fit and Proper, indeed.

We'll have no answer to the question on Brooks/Maguire/Walker money (save for 'wages' and for a team assembled for less than £8m, how much are they on?) so one must assume that there is still some tap switched on which is bleeding cash from the club. This isn't a direct dig at McCabe that he's crooked - as I have said before, I refute anyone who says he is - I just feel we are servicing some or other problem to make the club viable for flogging off. No one wants to buy a football club mired in existing debt, and perhaps this court case may be a watershed where we get some real truths about how the club is financially on a day to day basis.

pommpey
 
We need two strikers and an attacking midfielder as a matter of some urgency.
We’ll probably loan them in January. But what will we do in the close season?
Our starting XI next season shouldn’t contain any of our current front three imho. They’d all be potentially great impact subs, but we’ll struggle if they’re starters.
So, how much will it cost to replace all three?
A minimum of £20m, I reckon, just to stand still.
 
I can't put a sum on it, but what we ultimately need is to spend on a striker, as an immediate priority. My thinking behind this is because it's about being clinical with the chances we create, even if this is via a loanee in January.

Simply put, the squad we have are excellent but can't go full pelt for 90 minutes twice a week. With a clinical striker, last night's 35-40 minute spell sees us 2-0 up and were then focusing on game management and controlling the opposition. Game management in its own right is tiring as it requires discipline, but it's not hell-for-leather stuff.

If we take our chances, this side and squad is more than adequate, if you assume tharst all we can largely afford. We had the same scenario in league one, albeit against a much lower standard of opposition, where we would take the lead, ensure we were safely in front and then dictate the tempo of the game. I genuinely believe we can do that most teams in this division, but at the moment we aren't taking our chances, so we're faced with going full pelt just to try and stay in games.

League One we had Billy, he was clinical and we then managed games. We need a similarly clinical striker this time to help Bill out and then we can ease the tempo at times and prioritise focusing on discipline and a shape.
 
Snowman said:
More than we have and more than we are likely to have in the near future. They say it's the hope that kills you. I no longer have hope. I'm not going to let United kill me. They've tried for 59 years. Fuck em.
Click to expand...
Feeling the same mate....maybe it's an age thing but last night's result and Wilders response told me we are on the edge of a precipice.

Invest and give Wilder a chance or don't and watch him walk and see the team decline as the likes of JOC and Fleck leave and we are left with a team of 30+ year olds who need replacing.

I'm that despondent I've not even looked at today's scores as I don't think they matter any more.
 
pommpey said:
I think we will be lucky to recover to an automatic spot, even if by sheer miracle, the board found and approved a spend that big anyway. The impetus and momentum is now with teams who have gelled and sustained better form than us. Losing two consecutive home games against better opposition doesn't spell out consistency to me.

McCabe and HRH have made it clear. Their priorities aren't focussed on what is an unbelievable opportunity to reach further into the bigger world of footballing glory, moreover on sorting out the mistakes of the past. It's their train set, but fuck me is it disappointing or what? Same old fucking story. Fit and Proper, indeed.

We'll have no answer to the question on Brooks/Maguire/Walker money (save for 'wages' and for a team assembled for less than £8m, how much are they on?) so one must assume that there is still some tap switched on which is bleeding cash from the club. This isn't a direct dig at McCabe that he's crooked - as I have said before, I refute anyone who says he is - I just feel we are servicing some or other problem to make the club viable for flogging off. No one wants to buy a football club mired in existing debt, and perhaps this court case may be a watershed where we get some real truths about how the club is financially on a day to day basis.

pommpey
Click to expand...


There’s very little debt - the £7m loan is secured on the Brooks money outstanding - the issue is without PL income a prospective buyer would have to buy the properies, shore up losses every year AND invest heavily on the playing side. So based on the last asset valuation someone would have to be in for at least £50m in year one alone. Then there are EFL rules on sustainability. Other than PL money, our income streams aren’t going to increase while expenses rocket. It’s a hell of a commitment.

The sad thing is that we have the best chance in years but we’ll try to do it on a shoestring, the ownership result is unlikely to change anything and a frustrated Wilder will leave.
 
When Mandaric was selling the Pigs he wanted £13m for himself to walk away with a profit on his initial outlay and pay off the money owed to various people, then he wanted a commitment from the incoming man to put a minimum of £10m of his own money in each year for for 5 years. So that’s a minimum of £63m over a 5 year period and look where they are as a result.

I saw the sale papers and the terms of the sale as someone I know was interested until he saw the sums involved.

For us to go up and have a squad capable of staying up would cost a ridiculous amount of money. As Sean says, just buying McCabe and Abdullah our would be eye watering.
 
S64 Blade said:
I actually think relatively little would do it. We aren’t far off now which is what makes it all the more frustrating.
Click to expand...

Two more players and I think we could free up funds for wages at least by letting some non first team squad members go.

I reckon we could offload the likes of Lavery (assuming we are paying his wage out on loan), Lafferty (since he is barely anywhere near the first team) and maybe Wright (if he is fit to sell or release?).

Also, sending Woodburn back which I think will happen in January. There is a case for sending Johnson back as well.

If we can free up enough wages for two decent new loan signings then that will be a good window.
 



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