How Many is Enough? (Points not Pints!)

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ucandomagic

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On my graph threads I use an Automatic Promotion benchmark set of results for the season which was originally targeted at 90 points but was recently increased to 92 points to reflect the level of competition between the Top 4. I said, when I inceased it, that I would have a deeper look at the data, as there was certainly an indication that the general situation was changing with an increasing gulf between better and lesser teams and a resulting increase in the top teams' points totals.

Graph 1 shows all of the Top 3's points totals this century, along with a 90-point line.
Only once has a team got 90 points and not been Top 2 - but that was Leeds last year!

Graph 1:
Tier 2 Points.webp


Leicester were top with 97, Ipswich second with 96 and Leeds third with 90. So 90 points (or even 92 points) was nowhere near enough for Top 2 last year.

I wondered, therefore, whether this was a recent developing trend, so Graph 2 shows the 4-year rolling average totals this century for second and third place. There is a perceptible rise from about 2011 to 2018 or 2019 but then, of course Covid changed many things and undoubtedly affected results. There is, though, a strong upturn for 2024.

Graph 2:
Tier 2 Average Points.webp


So the next question is whether 2024 was an outlier or the start of a step-changed scenario. Table 1 shows the top of the 2024 and 2025 tables at the present moment - 30 games in. There is an uncanny similarity, with 4 teams pulling away this year and a 13-point gap to 5th. Last year 4 teams had pulled away with an 11 point gap to 5th, although some had only played 29 games.

Table 1:
Matchday 30 Table - 2024 and 2025.webp

Table 2
shows the very end of last season - with the same 4 teams having remained ahead, now with a 12-point gap back to 5th.

Table 2:
Final 2024 Table.webp


So the evidence does support the idea that, in the current competitive environment, a small group of teams will become significantly stronger and pull away, getting higher points totals than historically recorded. To quote Henry Ford "History is more or less bunk"!

All of the above implies that only the very recent past is relevant - Leeds would probably have needed 96 or 97 points to be second last year - and this year is looking very similar to last year.

So, I took the Top 4 and applied an optimistic, but not unrealistic look at all of their remaining fixtures. This resulted in Leeds 97, Blades 97, Sunderland 96, Burnley 94.

In other words, 97 points could realistically be required for second place.


I will continue to monitor everybody's results against the 4 sets of updated "optimistic" forecasts and report each week on how I think the end target is changing. There is, of course, a psychological aspect, if a team starts to fall away and lose confidence or vice versa. I must admit, though, that Sunderland have been a lot more robust than I expected as the pressure has increased.

So the cold analyst in me says 93 points will be enough but, at the moment, the Blade in me says expect to need 97!

UTB & Slava Ukraini!
 

Crikey Graphman that's a lot to take in.

Amazing how similar this year is at the top to last year.

I will watch with a worried brow to see how your 97 points -needed scenario changes as results come in over the next 4 or 5 weeks.

To the naked eye Leeds and Sunderland are the best 2 teams - us and Burnley are solid, but we are more interesting to watch. They are just so solid they are crystallised!

UTB & FTP!
 
The clear possibility that 96 might not be enough is scary.
That's 98 for us to argue with our minus 2 handicap!
 
It feels like this season is going to be another anomaly.

None of Leeds, Burnley & Sunderland look like falling away.

The latter two strengthened well in January, as we did, whilst Leeds remain (statistically, and in my opinion) the best team in the division.

Personally, I think Leeds will get mid-to-late 90s. 97/98.

The 3 of us will battle it out with not much to separate us.
2nd to 4th, 93 - 88 points.

I'd really hoped (& anticipated) that Sunderland would fall away.
Their January window and subsequent good form has convinced me otherwise.
 
It feels like this season is going to be another anomaly.

None of Leeds, Burnley & Sunderland look like falling away.

The latter two strengthened well in January, as we did, whilst Leeds remain (statistically, and in my opinion) the best team in the division.

Personally, I think Leeds will get mid-to-late 90s. 97/98.

The 3 of us will battle it out with not much to separate us.
2nd to 4th, 93 - 88 points.

I'd really hoped (& anticipated) that Sunderland would fall away.
Their January window and subsequent good form has convinced me otherwise.
As usual you like to think the grass is greener on the other side! :rolleyes:
 
“All of the above implies that only the very recent past is relevant - Leeds would probably have needed 96 or 97 points to be second last year - and this year is looking very similar to last year.”

But Ipswich only needed 91!
 
Which bit do you disagree with?
Not disagreeing with anything but you are always pessimistic about us. I have little knowledge about our new signings apart from BBD also I have little knowledge of Burnley's and Sunderland's signings (dont think Leeds have signed anyone in this window?)
 
It feels like this season is going to be another anomaly.

None of Leeds, Burnley & Sunderland look like falling away.

The latter two strengthened well in January, as we did, whilst Leeds remain (statistically, and in my opinion) the best team in the division.

Personally, I think Leeds will get mid-to-late 90s. 97/98.

The 3 of us will battle it out with not much to separate us.
2nd to 4th, 93 - 88 points.

I'd really hoped (& anticipated) that Sunderland would fall away.
Their January window and subsequent good form has convinced me otherwise.
I think it will be very close with all 4 teams. Each team has problem areas. Leeds struggle away from home, they've only won 5 and only scored 18. They've played 2 more home games than they have away and they haven't created a gap.

Burnley are so strong defensively like Leeds are at home. But struggle to score , drawn loads of games and games end up 0v0 pretty often .

We find a way to win and have won the most games in the division. We don't batter teams , we can play poorly quite often. But we find a way to win.

Sunderland keep hanging on in there and while most thought they'd fall away, they're still there. They have resilience like us and are keeping themselves in touch.

I wouldn't like to call it, as it's pretty tight and I don't think there's a lot between any of the sides and the table shows it. Could be that out points deduction makes us fall just short. Or the good January window could prove enough to take us up. All to play for really and there's gonna be some big twists and turns right up till the end.
 
It's the same response as the last time this was discussed. The total needed for second place isn't one more than the team that finished in second, it is one more than the team that finished in 3rd. Only once or twice in three EFL divisions in the last 20 years, has that number been more than 90.
 
Interesting but Leicester were so far ahead last season that in the last 16 games they lost almost half and still won the league, this season it's much tighter
 
It's also interesting looking at below the top 4, where 5 pts separate 5th - 14th.

Seems like when any team gets up into 5th or 6th they get a nosebleed and think "nah mate, this ain't for us"

Example being Blackburn tonight for instance.
 
It's the same response as the last time this was discussed. The total needed for second place isn't one more than the team that finished in second, it is one more than the team that finished in 3rd. Only once or twice in three EFL divisions in the last 20 years, has that number been more than 90.

Great point.

I think this is the one mistake ucandomagic made.

I think he did it the wrong way round, rather than what 3rd need to catch 2nd, it should be what 2nd need to finish above 3rd
 

To give some more context, to hit your numbers:
1) All four clubs would need form better than the season to date.
2) Blades, Burnley and Sunderland would need to average the equivalent of 100+ points seasons over the remaining 16 games. In Sunderland's case, this would be equivalent to 109 points over a 46 game season.

It's not going to happen. Your statistical analysis often offers food for thought, but this is a case where you're looking at numbers without sense checking what they actually means in practice.
 
The other point on this as well is in relation to Wednesday, I've heard lots saying that they will squeeze into top 6 as it will be a record low for playoffs , well that table shows that the top 6 are on almost identical points to last season and 6th place Norwich finished on 73 , they are currently on 42 so would need 31 points from 16 to match it again, and Wednesday are below them so would need 32 from 16 to overhaul them, that's 2 points a game , I don't see it happening personally
 
Sorry guys but you’re mixing deterministic arguments and statistical issues.

Graphman simply said that the most recent data (last year) showed that second place finished on 96 points - anybody other than those 2 needed 97. So this is a possible outcome.

He then looked at all this year’s matches still to go, and found that he could see perfectly feasible results that got Leeds on 97 and Sunderland on 96 - possibilities not probabilities.

He could also see that we could possibly get 97. So under this perfectly possible scenario for us, 97 was needed and possible.

However, as in his last statement, the strong statistical probability, based on all the data was that 93 was enough, but a requirement of 97 was still a perfectly possible requirement and should be kept in mind to avoid disappointment.

Personally, I won’t relax until we’ve got more points than anybody else can possibly get. Now I possibly need another drink!

UTB & FTP!
 
Sorry guys but you’re mixing deterministic arguments and statistical issues.

Graphman simply said that the most recent data (last year) showed that second place finished on 96 points - anybody other than those 2 needed 97. So this is a possible outcome.

He then looked at all this year’s matches still to go, and found that he could see perfectly feasible results that got Leeds on 97 and Sunderland on 96 - possibilities not probabilities.

He could also see that we could possibly get 97. So under this perfectly possible scenario for us, 97 was needed

But thats not the case is it, as de g. correctly pointed out, Leeds got 90 points last season, so Ipswich needed 91 points to finish 2nd.

As I said in my previous post, i like Ucan's thinking but I think he has done the logic a bit backwards on this occassion.

His original marker of between 90-92 points he predicts in the matchday charts will be enough.
 
Sorry guys but you’re mixing deterministic arguments and statistical issues.

Graphman simply said that the most recent data (last year) showed that second place finished on 96 points - anybody other than those 2 needed 97. So this is a possible outcome.
But second didn't need 96 - Ipswich needed 91. Just like no team in the Championship and only two in the football league have needed more than 91 in the last 20 years.


He then looked at all this year’s matches still to go, and found that he could see perfectly feasible results that got Leeds on 97 and Sunderland on 96 - possibilities not probabilities.

He could also see that we could possibly get 97. So under this perfectly possible scenario for us, 97 was needed and possible.
They aren't perfectly feasible. It's possible, but the chances of 4 teams (or even 3) simultaneously having the equivalent of 100-point seasons for more than a third of the season is highly unlikely.

However, as in his last statement, the strong statistical probability, based on all the data was that 93 was enough, but a requirement of 97 was still a perfectly possible requirement and should be kept in mind to avoid disappointment.

Personally, I won’t relax until we’ve got more points than anybody else can possibly get. Now I possibly need another drink!

UTB & FTP!
Like you, I've seen us on the wrong side of statistical outliers, so I'll be on edge like you. But while we might see one or two outliers, Graphman's scenario relies on several all at the same time.
 
But thats not the case is it, as de g. correctly pointed out, Leeds got 90 points last season, so Ipswich needed 91 points to finish 2nd.

As I said in my previous post, i like Ucan's thinking but I think he has done the logic a bit backwards on this occassion.

His original marker of between 90-92 points he predicts in the matchday charts will be enough.
Statistically, we’re not Ipswich - we’re anybody else in the league other than top 2. You can’t just take the stats and pick who you want to be in there. Anyway, as Graphman said at the end, all the data says 93 should be enough - but all the data also said that you never go to the 22nd pen for your keeper to decide a playoff - but it always happens to us!!

UTB & FTP!
 
Statistically, we’re not Ipswich - we’re anybody else in the league other than top 2. You can’t just take the stats and pick who you want to be in there. Anyway, as Graphman said at the end, all the data says 93 should be enough - but all the data also said that you never go to the 22nd pen for your keeper to decide a playoff - but it always happens to us!!

UTB & FTP!

Ok, but its not taking stats and picking who you want to be there... its literally looking at all the stats on this side of the century and looking at how many points would be enough for 2nd to have more than 3rd rather than how many points 3rd would need to catch 2nd...

It's actually quite simple
 
As ucdm said, and I have repeated, the general stats would say 93 points should be enough.

You cannot just pick an outcome - which happened - in which Leeds were third on 90 points and then in that scenario ignore the fact that Ipswich had 96 points. Only Ipswich could have been second on 91 points - but that wouldn’t have changed the outcome because they were second anyway. Anybody else needed 97.

I just want to beat Pompey - then Boro - then Luton - boring draw with Leeds - and grind the season out permanently 4 points or more clear of 3rd!!

UTB & FTP!
 
As ucdm said, and I have repeated, the general stats would say 93 points should be enough.

You cannot just pick an outcome - which happened - in which Leeds were third on 90 points and then in that scenario ignore the fact that Ipswich had 96 points. Only Ipswich could have been second on 91 points - but that wouldn’t have changed the outcome because they were second anyway. Anybody else needed 97.

I just want to beat Pompey - then Boro - then Luton - boring draw with Leeds - and grind the season out permanently 4 points or more clear of 3rd!!

UTB & FTP!
You're ignoring the point. The number that matters isn't what you needed to finish above second, but above third. Choosing one season to look at is cherry-picking.

As previously repeated ad nauseam no team finishing in the top two in the last 30 years has needed more than 91 points to achieve that position in the Championship. This season might be an outlier, but the chances are less than 2% based on 20 years data across three divisions.

It's highly unlikely that all 4 teams will improve on our ppg so far to get the numbers that Graphman indicated.

  • To even get to 91 points, Burnley would need to achieve 2ppg over their remaining 15 games, improving on their current 1.96ppg.
  • Sunderland need 33 points to get to 91, 2.06ppg vs 1.93ppg so far.
  • We and Leeds have managed 2.1ppg so far. Leeds need 1.75ppg, and we need 1.88ppg.
 
You're ignoring the point. The number that matters isn't what you needed to finish above second, but above third. Choosing one season to look at is cherry-picking.

It depends which way you look at it.

For Leeds to have finished above Ipswich last season they would have needed 96 points.

But from Ipswich's point of view they still would have finished 2nd with 91 points.

91 points was enough for Ipswich as it happened but 91 points wouldn't have been enough for Leeds.
 
What I know is if we have many more games like Hull we can close this thread
 
Oh dear - the only team that 91 points would have been enough for was Ipswich, and that wouldn't have changed the outcome because they were second anyway.

So the only way that the outcome (second place) could have been changed by a team getting 91 or more is by a team (other than Ipswich) getting more than 96 - because by assumption Ipswich already had 96 in the same way that everyone is accepting that Leeds already had 90.

Nobody is arguing against the fact that historically this was a statistical first - but the current season is an exact parallel, suggesting that last season was the first of a changed future, and so as far as predicting the future perhaps "history is bunk"!

UTB & FTP!
 
We're trying to gel players. The other 3 aren't.
I think we'll finish 4th.
 

Oh dear - the only team that 91 points would have been enough for was Ipswich, and that wouldn't have changed the outcome because they were second anyway.

So the only way that the outcome (second place) could have been changed by a team getting 91 or more is by a team (other than Ipswich) getting more than 96 - because by assumption Ipswich already had 96 in the same way that everyone is accepting that Leeds already had 90.

Nobody is arguing against the fact that historically this was a statistical first - but the current season is an exact parallel, suggesting that last season was the first of a changed future, and so as far as predicting the future perhaps "history is bunk"!

UTB & FTP!

So even with last year as an outlier, tell me which seasons a team with 92 points or more hasn't got automatic promotion in past 30 years

Oh wait you can't, oh dear indeed....
 

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