Higdon

[Rodley]

Catch up and do what? None of our midfielders can shoot to save their lives.

This is my point. If that was Clough's plan, he bought the wrong players to execute it.

To hold the ball up for the length of time required for Coutts and Hammond to get up the pitch, you'd have to be built like the World's Strongest Man.

 

[SwissBlade]

Catch up and do what? None of our midfielders can shoot to save their lives.

This is my point. If that was Clough's plan, he bought the wrong players to execute it.

Clough had the front end to deal with it, if Higdon/ O'Grady/ Davies had been fit enough. With Done and Adams supporting

The central midfield had evolved to be slower, but with Baxter-Coutts; Basham-J. Wallace; Scougs-Reed there was a blend of ball players, ball winners and energy - if not the goals. I think Clough also put a lot of faith in J. Wallace getting fit (eventually). There just wasn't the goals in that central midfield.

 

[pommpey]

Great post, and is exactly the kind of thing the 'technical board' should be looking at before signing players.

Can't wait for this summers strategy :-(

Because the strategy is 'rebranding'.

At the beginning of next season, we will have George Hodgkinlong, Tony Couttsy, Alan Woolford, Jeff Sammon, Stuart Scougallion, Brian Dean Hammond and John-Ryan Flynn.

Don't get suspicious about the names, eh?

pommpey

 

[BushBlade]

Because the strategy is 'rebranding'.

At the beginning of next season, we will have George Hodgkinlong, Tony Couttsy, Alan Woolford, Jeff Sammon, Stuart Scougallion, Brian Dean Hammond and John-Ryan Flynn.

Don't get suspicious about the names, eh?

pommpey

More like Don Givens-Coutts and John Matthews-Woolford.

 

[bladesmanluke]

Wow Pete your hatred of clough is really strong it borders on scary! Did he run your dog over, shag your missus?

Run OUR football club into the dirt?

 

[Robboblade1889]

Run OUR football club into the dirt?

Oh give over, this is what I am talking about regarding the melodrama surrounding clough, do people actually believe this?? Tell you what lets have a look at Clough signings and the cost:

2013/2014
Contracts
Stefan Scougall
Bob Harris

Loan in
Aidan White December
Billy Paynter Doncaster Rovers
John Brayford Cardiff City
Ben Davies Derby County
Kieron Freeman

2014/1015
Signings
Jamal Campbell-Ryce Free
Marc McNulty Undisclosed
Chris Basham Free ]
Andy Butler Walsall Free
Ben Davies Derby County Free
James Wallace Undisclosed
Craig Alcock Free
Harrison McGahey Compensation
Michael Higdon NEC!Undisclosed
Jay McEveley Free
Iain Turner Free
Che Adams Undisclosed
Kieran Wallace Free
Kieron Freeman Free
Paul Coutts Undisclosed
John Brayford Cardiff City Undisclosed
Matt Done Undisclosed

Loans
Paddy McCarthy
Chris O'Grady
Jason Holt
Steve Davies

So from this Clough signed 19 players and out of those probably 4/5 were for decent money and will have been on decent wages 14 of these are still on our books. Seriously does this transfer activity really constitute the label he ruined our club? Looking at the players he signed barring probably Higdon they are all players who played at a higher level and on paper should have got us promotion. I hopes this dispels the myth that Clough signed 40 players and left us in the poo! The current manager should man up and accept that he led us to one of our worse seasons in the clubs history!

 

[Rodley]

Free doesn't mean no acquisition costs. I don't think it's unreasonable to say that signing on fees alone for most players would be circa £100k each. Then fees for loans etc.

He spent shitloads of money. Why did he sign such a big volume of players?! Why not sign 6 good quality players, the wage bill and transfer fees / signing on fees would be the same.

 

[alcoblade]

Oh give over, this is what I am talking about regarding the melodrama surrounding clough, do people actually believe this?? Tell you what lets have a look at Clough signings and the cost:

2013/2014
Contracts
Stefan Scougall
Bob Harris

Loan in
Aidan White December
Billy Paynter Doncaster Rovers
John Brayford Cardiff City
Ben Davies Derby County
Kieron Freeman

2014/1015
Signings
Jamal Campbell-Ryce Free
Marc McNulty Undisclosed
Chris Basham Free ]
Andy Butler Walsall Free
Ben Davies Derby County Free
James Wallace Undisclosed
Craig Alcock Free
Harrison McGahey Compensation
Michael Higdon NEC!Undisclosed
Jay McEveley Free
Iain Turner Free
Che Adams Undisclosed
Kieran Wallace Free
Kieron Freeman Free
Paul Coutts Undisclosed
John Brayford Cardiff City Undisclosed
Matt Done Undisclosed

Loans
Paddy McCarthy
Chris O'Grady
Jason Holt
Steve Davies

So from this Clough signed 19 players and out of those probably 4/5 were for decent money and will have been on decent wages 14 of these are still on our books. Seriously does this transfer activity really constitute the label he ruined our club? Looking at the players he signed barring probably Higdon they are all players who played at a higher level and on paper should have got us promotion. I hopes this dispels the myth that Clough signed 40 players and left us in the poo! The current manager should man up and accept that he led us to one of our worse seasons in the clubs history!

No, that confirms the notion that he brought in a squad full of fucking attrocious players that have saddled us with more debt and more contracts to see out. Add Sammon to that list of terrible duds. Add another dud, the extension of Flynn's contract. There's probably more dud extensions to add on top.


You could weep looking at it. Woeful.

UTB

 

[Robboblade1889]

I bet if you went through warnocks signings the majority will have been flops. However he got 9 years Clough got 18 month. I am not defending Clough because he did a brilliant job but the way some talk on here regarding his 18 months tenure is incredible and my point regarding his signings is there is a myth he brought in 40 players and spent millions when clearly he didn't. The money from the cup runs would have covered much of it and it was him who got us there don't forget that.

 

[1danewhitehouse]

really

ogrady

hes scored 4 goals since leaving barnsley in 2014

why the fuck would we want someone like that

really

Sorry if he’s not a good enough Wikipedia footballer for your liking. However, for those that actually watch football and watch United, you would see that he his big, strong, mobile and hard working. People quote his 1 in 4 for us as a poor return but lets not forget that he only played about 20 mins v MK as he was injured.


I’m all ears though if you’d like to present an alternative option to act as a foil for the likes of Sharp and Adams?

 

[1danewhitehouse]

Sorry i didn't mean as a partnership, but as a comparison. Should've made that clearer

Ah got you. I’ve watched Winnall about 4 or 5 times in full games plus higlights etc. I said before he was too similar to Sharp but I would liken him even more to McNulty.


He doesn’t tend to contribute much outside of his goals. He’s a good finisher and a bit of a fox in the box type striker but from what I’ve seen he can’t hold the ball up or take players on to create things for himself.


Personally, I prefer Sharp.

 

[1danewhitehouse]

I have no issue with Sharps goal return, he's surpassed my expectations in that respect and it wasn't intended to be a slight on his achievement.

However, i think with a different type of striker, you can can take the pressure off the midfield and defence if the Striker holds the ball well and brings others in. I'm not convinced that we've held the ball well up front and we've certainly not had options when we need to keep the ball. Sharp and Adams are all about turn and go, often leaving a gap between them and the midfield. Having a striker with the ability to hold the ball better allows time for the midfield to catch up - especially when the defence launch the ball forward to clear the lines.

Yep agree with that. O Grady is very good at playing with his back to goal and running the channels. If Billy had spent the season alongside someone like him I could see him being on 25-30 goals this season.


I also think we’d have conceded less for the reasons you suggest and the advantage of another big man defending set pieces.

 

[1danewhitehouse]

I think Sharp holds the ball up well. He's tough as teak for a shortarse and pretty strong.

I think Evans & Sharp is a very good partnership at this level.

I agree about Sharp holding it up well but having to play that role takes away from his goal threat in my opinion.

 

[1danewhitehouse]

Oh give over, this is what I am talking about regarding the melodrama surrounding clough, do people actually believe this?? Tell you what lets have a look at Clough signings and the cost:

2013/2014
Contracts
Stefan Scougall
Bob Harris

Loan in
Aidan White December
Billy Paynter Doncaster Rovers
John Brayford Cardiff City
Ben Davies Derby County
Kieron Freeman

2014/1015
Signings
Jamal Campbell-Ryce Free
Marc McNulty Undisclosed
Chris Basham Free ]
Andy Butler Walsall Free
Ben Davies Derby County Free
James Wallace Undisclosed
Craig Alcock Free
Harrison McGahey Compensation
Michael Higdon NEC!Undisclosed
Jay McEveley Free
Iain Turner Free
Che Adams Undisclosed
Kieran Wallace Free
Kieron Freeman Free
Paul Coutts Undisclosed
John Brayford Cardiff City Undisclosed
Matt Done Undisclosed

Loans
Paddy McCarthy
Chris O'Grady
Jason Holt
Steve Davies

So from this Clough signed 19 players and out of those probably 4/5 were for decent money and will have been on decent wages 14 of these are still on our books. Seriously does this transfer activity really constitute the label he ruined our club? Looking at the players he signed barring probably Higdon they are all players who played at a higher level and on paper should have got us promotion. I hopes this dispels the myth that Clough signed 40 players and left us in the poo! The current manager should man up and accept that he led us to one of our worse seasons in the clubs history!

All played at a higher level?


McNulty

Scougall

K. Wallace

J. Wallace

Adams

Holt

Butler



To my knowledge those guys had barely played any games at a higher level. JCR, McEveley, Done, Alcock etc. have been at this level for a while having played higher in a past life.


B. Davies, Freeman, Turner were only ever squad players at a higher level.


The only bonafide higher level players were Brayford, O Grady, McCarthy and to some extent Coutts but he was on the comeback from a bad injury.



I agree it’s unfair to say Clough ruined our club as the board sanction transfers. They allowed him to spend what he did and it was a squad built with a view to how he wanted us to play. It was the board who sacked him and chose to employ someone who wanted to play a different way knowing that the funds weren’t there to performed the route and branch surgery to the squad that was needed.


I believe Clough did a poor job in the transfer market but overall responsibility goes higher. Whilst he did a poor job, he also did other things very well such as turning Jamie Murphy into a very good player, improving Maguire and Coady, the cup runs etc.

 

[1danewhitehouse]

Free doesn't mean no acquisition costs. I don't think it's unreasonable to say that signing on fees alone for most players would be circa £100k each. Then fees for loans etc.

He spent shitloads of money. Why did he sign such a big volume of players?! Why not sign 6 good quality players, the wage bill and transfer fees / signing on fees would be the same.

That’s the thing that still grates. He said at the end of his first season he wanted a squad of 18-20 of real quality to be supplemented by youth then went and built a squad of 30 odd. IU don’t think we’ve ever had a real explanation for the massive deviation.

 

[1danewhitehouse]

No, that confirms the notion that he brought in a squad full of fucking attrocious players that have saddled us with more debt and more contracts to see out. Add Sammon to that list of terrible duds. Add another dud, the extension of Flynn's contract. There's probably more dud extensions to add on top.


You could weep looking at it. Woeful.

UTB

Whilst we’re at it, let’s not forget the re-signing of Chris Porter.

 

[1danewhitehouse]

I bet if you went through warnocks signings the majority will have been flops. However he got 9 years Clough got 18 month. I am not defending Clough because he did a brilliant job but the way some talk on here regarding his 18 months tenure is incredible and my point regarding his signings is there is a myth he brought in 40 players and spent millions when clearly he didn't. The money from the cup runs would have covered much of it and it was him who got us there don't forget that.

Yet Adkins hasn’t bee able to spend the Murphy money or the Man U cup money presumably because of the on-going wages of so many mediocre players signed by Clough.

 

[BushBlade]

That’s the thing that still grates. He said at the end of his first season he wanted a squad of 18-20 of real quality to be supplemented by youth then went and built a squad of 30 odd. IU don’t think we’ve ever had a real explanation for the massive deviation.

I'd guess because some of his signings didn't work out, so he had to add more players.

I'm assuming you're counting Scougall, McNulty, K Wallace, Adams, Magahey in that thirty but Clough would argue none of them were signed as senior first team players, they were part of the supplemental youth.

Clough had a Warnock like approach to players; you can never be certain that they'll work out until you've signed them, sometimes you'll get it wrong and when you do, admit it, move on, find someone else.

I doubt Clough got his first choices in any of the positions (Done was about 4th).

But I doubt we'll ever know for sure as Clough signed an NDA and I don't believe anything that KM says.

 

[PeteBlade]

Oh give over, this is what I am talking about regarding the melodrama surrounding clough, do people actually believe this?? Tell you what lets have a look at Clough signings and the cost:

2013/2014
Contracts
Stefan Scougall
Bob Harris

Loan in
Aidan White December
Billy Paynter Doncaster Rovers
John Brayford Cardiff City
Ben Davies Derby County
Kieron Freeman

2014/1015
Signings
Jamal Campbell-Ryce Free
Marc McNulty Undisclosed
Chris Basham Free ]
Andy Butler Walsall Free
Ben Davies Derby County Free
James Wallace Undisclosed
Craig Alcock Free
Harrison McGahey Compensation
Michael Higdon NEC!Undisclosed
Jay McEveley Free
Iain Turner Free
Che Adams Undisclosed
Kieran Wallace Free
Kieron Freeman Free
Paul Coutts Undisclosed
John Brayford Cardiff City Undisclosed
Matt Done Undisclosed

Loans
Paddy McCarthy
Chris O'Grady
Jason Holt
Steve Davies

So from this Clough signed 19 players and out of those probably 4/5 were for decent money and will have been on decent wages 14 of these are still on our books. Seriously does this transfer activity really constitute the label he ruined our club? Looking at the players he signed barring probably Higdon they are all players who played at a higher level and on paper should have got us promotion. I hopes this dispels the myth that Clough signed 40 players and left us in the poo! The current manager should man up and accept that he led us to one of our worse seasons in the clubs history!

The likelihood that every single one of those players if and when released will play at a level lower than where they are now barring Adams should tell its own story.

 

[1danewhitehouse]

I'd guess because some of his signings didn't work out, so he had to add more players.

I'm assuming you're counting Scougall, McNulty, K Wallace, Adams, Magahey in that thirty but Clough would argue none of them were signed as senior first team players, they were part of the supplemental youth.

Clough had a Warnock like approach to players; you can never be certain that they'll work out until you've signed them, sometimes you'll get it wrong and when you do, admit it, move on, find someone else.

I doubt Clough got his first choices in any of the positions (Done was about 4th).

But I doubt we'll ever know for sure as Clough signed an NDA and I don't believe anything that KM says.

I think it's a stretch to include Scougall and McNulty as supplementary youth as they had played a lot of games in Scotland and were both in their early twenties. By that age, I think they have to be first team contributors with the added bonus that they might improve further.

I accept Adams and K. Wallace as development players.

 

[BushBlade]

I think it's a stretch to include Scougall and McNulty as supplementary youth as they had played a lot of games in Scotland and were both in their early twenties. By that age, I think they have to be first team contributors with the added bonus that they might improve further.

I accept Adams and K. Wallace as development players.

When both were signed we were told they were for the future. You don't just go from being a development player to first team regular unless you're someone like Rooney, there's an intermediate stage for a lot of young players, where they're in the squad but still learning the ropes.
It's like when you pass your driving test, it means you're good enough to be trusted to drive on your own, it doesn't mean you're a great driver.

They were both 21 when signed, I think and playing at a low level. They were gambles.

 

[Large Mendonca]

Higdon could finish. Sammon had the physique of a professional athlete.

Put the two together and you'd either get a fat bucket of slop who couldn't hit a barn door, or the white Didier Drogba.

Reminds me of that Tommy Cooper skit about buying a Stradivarius and a Mozart from an antiques shop....."The problem was, Mozart couldn't play the violin, and Stradivarius was an awful painter"

 

[dublin 10 blade]

More like Don Givens-Coutts and John Matthews-Woolford.

Those two names still send a shiver down my spine , at least Matthews had a good bang on him ,
Givens least said the better , after cunt curran , the vilest fucker to ever pull on our red and white .

 

[BushBlade]

Those two names still send a shiver down my spine , at least Matthews had a good bang on him ,
Givens least said the better , after cunt curran , the vilest fucker to ever pull on our red and white .

That's harsh on Givens. At least he had the bottle to take the pen.

 

[1danewhitehouse]

When both were signed we were told they were for the future. You don't just go from being a development player to first team regular unless you're someone like Rooney, there's an intermediate stage for a lot of young players, where they're in the squad but still learning the ropes.
It's like when you pass your driving test, it means you're good enough to be trusted to drive on your own, it doesn't mean you're a great driver.

They were both 21 when signed, I think and playing at a low level. They were gambles.

When Scougall was signed I think Clough said something along the lines of "more for next season than this". As it turns out he was great "this" season and pants "next" season (and the one after)

I think both looked to have potential so not too critical of Clough there but both have been let down by their attitude. That was something Clough said he would also scrutinise heavily before signing players but it seems like the biggest problem amongst his recruits. Again, it's had to know before you work with them but I think a lot was left to be desired when it came to scouting during the Clough reign.

 

[BushBlade]

When Scougall was signed I think Clough said something along the lines of "more for next season than this". As it turns out he was great "this" season and pants "next" season (and the one after)

I think both looked to have potential so not too critical of Clough there but both have been let down by their attitude. That was something Clough said he would also scrutinise heavily before signing players but it seems like the biggest problem amongst his recruits. Again, it's had to know before you work with them but I think a lot was left to be desired when it came to scouting during the Clough reign.

I think it's always difficult to tell how young players will respond to coming to a big club and being paid good money. In this case, not that well apparently.

 

[dublin 10 blade]

That's harsh on Givens. At least he had the bottle to take the pen.

He was a Irish international, so should have been used to the pressure, on the odd time I went , when he was in charge of the Irish underage team , I voiced my displeasure.
Didn't stop the lad from Walsall tucking it away , curran is still a cunt though .

 

[alcoblade]

Whilst we’re at it, let’s not forget the re-signing of Chris Porter.

I thought he'd done that, yes. I was giving him the benefit of the doubt, but you're right. Another contract, another upfront, obvious waste of valueable resource.

UTB

 

[Cyprus Blade]

Higdon was clearly the back up plan for O’Grady

Quite an expensive back up plan though and an incredibly poor return for a transfer fee and high wages. And he still wanted O'Grady afterwards.

The Issue of the Centre Halves was massive, personally I thought it was the main reason to keep Clough, he had recognised this issue, despite persisting with Tel Kennedy, Brayford, JMac etc, it merely masked the issue.

This has to be the reason to get rid of Clough - the CH problem was the elephant in the room for a long part of his tenancy.He recognised it and did not address it and we ended up in a play-off with the 5 foot eight inch Alcock as CH. Adkins at least sorted out the problems with Collins (and got rid of him - which Clough wanted to do and failed) and signed loan CH's from the Championship.

I think Clough also put a lot of faith in J. Wallace getting fit (eventually). There just wasn't the goals in that central midfield.

Clough gambled a lot with his signings fitness wise - you can include Coutts and Higdon as well as sicknote. His due diligence and scouting was appalling. His signings were reminiscent of someone buying ticket after ticket for the bran-tub in the hope of pulling out the star prize. And all those frees he brought in came with signing on fees and an ever increasing burden on the wage bill. Add to this Clough did not have a clue about balancing players in with players out and hey presto you have our bloated squad. Yet the one player who he knew would make a difference, Coady, he made only a token effort to get opting instead for sicknote Wallace and Basham. And then there is Brayford - a very expensive acquisition who hasn't lived up to his loan spell quality.

 

[LoughboroBlade]

Oh give over, this is what I am talking about regarding the melodrama surrounding clough, do people actually believe this?? Tell you what lets have a look at Clough signings and the cost:

2013/2014
Contracts
Stefan Scougall
Bob Harris

Loan in
Aidan White December
Billy Paynter Doncaster Rovers
John Brayford Cardiff City
Ben Davies Derby County
Kieron Freeman

2014/1015
Signings
Jamal Campbell-Ryce Free
Marc McNulty Undisclosed
Chris Basham Free ]
Andy Butler Walsall Free
Ben Davies Derby County Free
James Wallace Undisclosed
Craig Alcock Free
Harrison McGahey Compensation
Michael Higdon NEC!Undisclosed
Jay McEveley Free
Iain Turner Free
Che Adams Undisclosed
Kieran Wallace Free
Kieron Freeman Free
Paul Coutts Undisclosed
John Brayford Cardiff City Undisclosed
Matt Done Undisclosed

Loans
Paddy McCarthy
Chris O'Grady
Jason Holt
Steve Davies

So from this Clough signed 19 players and out of those probably 4/5 were for decent money and will have been on decent wages 14 of these are still on our books. Seriously does this transfer activity really constitute the label he ruined our club? Looking at the players he signed barring probably Higdon they are all players who played at a higher level and on paper should have got us promotion. I hopes this dispels the myth that Clough signed 40 players and left us in the poo! The current manager should man up and accept that he led us to one of our worse seasons in the clubs history!

Summer transfer window: Sign 2 right-backs (Alcock, Davies) plus one that can play there (Basham)

Mid season: discover that one player already in the squad was better than the summer signings when tested there (Flynn)

January 23rd: despite having 4 right-back options now on the books, sign another right back (Freeman)

January 24th: with 5 options at right-back, blow most of the remaining transfer budget on another one (Brayford)

It's not the signings themselves that were the problem, but the completely unbalanced squad. Loads of right backs, few central defenders, no central midfielders good as a pairing, few options up front.