Grappling in the Box - suggestions please

[Sheffsteel]

Can any rules change to end this tedious repeated activity. It’s hard to know which side is doing the offending so is there a rule change that might work?

Eg No player puts a hand on an opponent in the 6 yard box at a corner or free kick? Hands to side or be hind back in 6 yard box.

Penalty if a defender touches an opponent. Free kick if attacker does. What about refs assistant moves close to monitor the penalty box rather than worry re offside- there was a competition where they had extra officials to monitor penalty area. Not sure where or why it didn’t continue.

Anyway, glad we’re got a penalty yesterday, but would prefer for it to be stamped out!

Won’t ever be stamped out.
If we introduce your rules then they’ll be penalties in most matches.

The best defenders will be based on who has the brain power to resist temptation by not touching strikers.
The game would turn into a farce…much much worse than now.

It’s like the bad language rule or crowding the ref rule.
Football is an emotive sport with massive stakes.
If bad language or crowding the ref lead to a red card….then we’d see matches 7 versus 8 players
And no doubt some would be abandoned due to not enough players on the pitch.

Think the answer is an after match panel watching games and giving warnings to certain players.
If this continues then potentially a match suspension.

 

[SW12 to S12 to S18]

Won’t ever be stamped out.
If we introduce your rules then they’ll be penalties in most matches.

The best defenders will be based on who has the brain power to resist temptation by not touching strikers.
The game would turn into a farce…much much worse than now.

It’s like the bad language rule or crowding the ref rule.
Football is an emotive sport with massive stakes.
If bad language or crowding the ref lead to a red card….then we’d see matches 7 versus 8 players
And no doubt some would be abandoned due to not enough players on the pitch.

Think the answer is an after match panel watching games and giving warnings to certain players.
If this continues then potentially a match suspension.

They'd soon stop doing it.

 

[jt64]

Exactly and that’s why by delaying the corner you are setting out what you are seeing. As players they should be street wise to the Laws of the game, if you have been reminded and then carry on it’s not anyone else’s fault but your own

Yeah, I can get that angle, but at the same time it seems superfluous to some degree

 

[LBA_Blade]

He can tell them before the game. He doesn’t have to waste time further by stopping the game to wag his finger

Transparency or should I say lack of doesn’t help the game either. We don’t know what is discussed pre-match or during games. Wilder was on about that referees lack of game management mentioning he was too busy ensuring a free kick was taking from the right place () part of game management is communication skills. You have the highest concentration of players at corners from both sides we don’t actually know what he was talking to players about it could be to tell them to cut out the back chat. The perfect time to delay a restart is at a corner, takes seconds but you address a recent issue that has occurred during the match.

 

[jt64]

It’s like the bad language rule or crowding the ref rule.
Football is an emotive sport with massive stakes.
If bad language or crowding the ref lead to a red card….then we’d see matches 7 versus 8 players

And the team that actually has their players interact with officials like normal human beings will win the league. Which is fine. Rugby is also a high profile sport with a lot on the line with a lot of high pressure incidents, but the refs there would have no problem sending off multiple players, and the players know that. They don't have games where multiple players are sent off anywhere near as often as football does. I really don't get why people are that opposed to games with multiple players dismissed if they deserve it?

 

[Edgar Allan Poo]

No hands on another man. If you do, you get the new pink gay card. 4 gay cards in the same season and you have to attend the next Pride parade dressed in Rob Halford's sweaty leather gear whilst being pelted with really gay pink candyfloss.

Sorted. Next problem please.

 

[SwissBlade]

Transparency or should I say lack of doesn’t help the game either. We don’t know what is discussed pre-match or during games. Wilder was on about that referees lack of game management mentioning he was too busy ensuring a free kick was taking from the right place () part of game management is communication skills. You have the highest concentration of players at corners from both sides we don’t actually know what he was talking to players about it could be to tell them to cut out the back chat. The perfect time to delay a restart is at a corner, takes seconds but you address a recent issue that has occurred during the match.

There needs to be a balance. We don’t need to know what the ref says to the teams before the match, but even as an amateur in the local leagues going back 20-30 years, refs would often come and talk to teams prematch and reinforce short messages.

Does a ref need to stop the game to remind players to follow the laws at set pieces? 100% no.

There are other aspects of game management which refs can and should do.

For some time refs would only speak to the captains, which is right. That seems to have disappeared again. Refs were also booking players for trying to get other players booked. That’s stopped too.

Refs need to be stronger and just let players make their mistakes and the ref can take action as soon as an offence happens. It doesn’t need to be complicated, really

 

[radio]

My issue is with the ref stopping the corner being taken to " have a word" ,my solution would be slight rule change , even before a corner is taken , therefore with ball still out of play if ref sees an attacker foul they lose the corner the ball goes to defending team for a free kick , similarly if a defender does it , the attacking team gets the penalty prior to the corner being taken , ,,

 

[LBA_Blade]

There needs to be a balance. We don’t need to know what the ref says to the teams before the match, but even as an amateur in the local leagues going back 20-30 years, refs would often come and talk to teams prematch and reinforce short messages.

Does a ref need to stop the game to remind players to follow the laws at set pieces? 100% no.

There are other aspects of game management which refs can and should do.

For some time refs would only speak to the captains, which is right. That seems to have disappeared again. Refs were also booking players for trying to get other players booked. That’s stopped too.

Refs need to be stronger and just let players make their mistakes and the ref can take action as soon as an offence happens. It doesn’t need to be complicated, really

Agree from where are coming from, the major problem we have in the higher leagues in particular is the entitled personalities mainly driven by money from the players which causes them to think they are better than anyone else. By the referee reminding the players mid game you are trying to stop the incident from happening or you needing to make a decision. We 100% wouldn’t have got that penalty at Old Trafford against a Fergie Man United mainly because of how much pressure the referees are under in the media. It is easy to say let the players get on with it but who are you pinging when there are 8 players pulling and pushing in the penalty area?

Agreed there should be a balance but the reason why you speak with players at corners is that 9 times out of 10 you are going to have the vast majority of players in front of you and it might not be anything to do with the corner but could be just a reminder what I was saying before etc x y and z.

 

[SwissBlade]

Agree from where are coming from, the major problem we have in the higher leagues in particular is the entitled personalities mainly driven by money from the players which causes them to think they are better than anyone else. By the referee reminding the players mid game you are trying to stop the incident from happening or you needing to make a decision. We 100% wouldn’t have got that penalty at Old Trafford against a Fergie Man United mainly because of how much pressure the referees are under in the media. It is easy to say let the players get on with it but who are you pinging when there are 8 players pulling and pushing in the penalty area?

Agreed there should be a balance but the reason why you speak with players at corners is that 9 times out of 10 you are going to have the vast majority of players in front of you and it might not be anything to do with the corner but could be just a reminder what I was saying before etc x y and z.

Ok let’s put it more simply. The nonsense with refs constantly stopping the games so much is having a much bigger impact than refs not having the balls to make decisions when the feel under pressure.

We know that the bias in the game rolls down from the top and the big teams get decisions go their way.

VAR didn’t help. It wastes more time

Klopp and his cronies fought for years for more subs, they eventually got their way despite opposition from smaller clubs. This wastes more time

Games are now 100 mins or more. It’s stoppage after stoppage and it’s too much. The game has become dull because of it.

 

[LBA_Blade]

Ok let’s put it more simply. The nonsense with refs constantly stopping the games so much is having a much bigger impact than refs not having the balls to make decisions when the feel under pressure.

We know that the bias in the game rolls down from the top and the big teams get decisions go their way.

VAR didn’t help. It wastes more time

Klopp and his cronies fought for years for more subs, they eventually got their way despite opposition from smaller clubs. This wastes more time

Games are now 100 mins or more. It’s stoppage after stoppage and it’s too much. The game has become dull because of it.

Ok let’s put it more simply. The nonsense with refs constantly stopping the games so much is having a much bigger impact than refs not having the balls to make decisions when the feel under pressure.

We know that the bias in the game rolls down from the top and the big teams get decisions go their way.

VAR didn’t help. It wastes more time

Klopp and his cronies fought for years for more subs, they eventually got their way despite opposition from smaller clubs. This wastes more time

Games are now 100 mins or more. It’s stoppage after stoppage and it’s too much. The game has become dull because of it.

Referees talking to players should be allowed to happen or on the flip side there shouldn’t be any communication from the players to the referees either

Game length has definitely increased due to more subs too. 5 mins stoppage per half isn’t the longest when we consider how long the ball is actually in play for. There was a debate at one point of having 60 mins in play ball time however I fear with that would bring the incentive for the USA style advertising. The good coaches will be using a way to try and win penalties if the referee was getting forced into them, we should take that opportunity from a corner, have 3 players every corner getting pushed and pulled and going down giving the referee a decision to be made.

 

[North Riding Blade]

Without wanting to hijack the thread and, as pointed out above, there are rules already in place to deal with this. It just takes the ref to grow a pair. What infuriates me more than the wrestling is the coaching staff inspired/initiated 'goalie sitting down' to slow the game down and release pressure. Don't know how they get around this. Winds me up and that's from both ends.

 

[Shakin Stevens is my Dad]

A lot of this gets put down to inconsistent refereeing, but that feels like a symptom rather than the cause. The bigger issue might be the lack of support around referees.

In Rugby union, officials work as a team. Assistants are actively involved, communication is constant, and decisions feel shared. In the Championship, there’s not even VAR as a fallback, so the referee is often left to make big calls in a crowded box on their own.

So rather than just blaming refs, it’s worth asking whether the structure set by the The Football Association gives them enough support to be consistent in the first place. A more collaborative approach might go a long way to improving things.

 

[SW12 to S12 to S18]

Without wanting to hijack the thread and, as pointed out above, there are rules already in place to deal with this. It just takes the ref to grow a pair. What infuriates me more than the wrestling is the coaching staff inspired/initiated 'goalie sitting down' to slow the game down and release pressure. Don't know how they get around this. Winds me up and that's from both ends.

Exactly, the laws of the game just need to be applied by the officials, they're not, and those officials are entirely to blame. They need to do their jobs correctly and all this nonsense will disappear.

 

[SW12 to S12 to S18]

I've been watching The Big Match Revisited, its very refreshing to see the players of the seventies playing the game in a fairer manner with far less cheating than we get today.

 

[sitwell]

Only allow 2 or 3 players from each team in the six yard box.

 

[100% part time blade]

Simple really, apply the laws of the game. Blow for a foul everytime it happens and either give a free kick to the defending team or a penalty.

What if they both do it. Defenders and attackers. At every corner?
You can’t give a penalty and a free-kick the other way?

This is actually what happens now, and saying the ref should just apply the laws doesn’t really work any more.

You literally have 18 players in a space about 5 metres square, all fouling each other at once, at every corner. What is a referee meant to do at that point?
A rule change is definitely needed in my view.

 

[TopBoy]

Saw the title of this thread and had high hopes of some X-rated fun. Alas no, it’s football related.

 

[SW12 to S12 to S18]

What if they both do it. Defenders and attackers. At every corner?
You can’t give a penalty and a free-kick the other way?

This is actually what happens now, and saying the ref should just apply the laws doesn’t really work any more.

You literally have 18 players in a space about 5 metres square, all fouling each other at once, at every corner. What is a referee meant to do at that point?
A rule change is definitely needed in my view.

He should do what happened on Saturday, award a foul against the side he thinks is the main instigator.
Let's face it, it's cheating.

 

[Greasy Chap Butty]

Doesn't need a rule change.
Just enforce existing rules once the kick has been taken.
Stop the pre-warning bullshit. Penalty or free kick. Easy.
It then all stops in the first week of returning to common sense refereeing.

 

[JOEYDEE]

Any player in the six yard box before corner kick taken to have arms behind them with hands clasped In place ..sorted

 

[Stanthemanfan]

No player in the 6 yard box till corner taken
Instant yellow for shirt pulling

 

[Iffy Onuora's Shiny Head]

So many times its incredibly difficult to see who initiated the contact and whos doing it more, as so often both players have arms around each other.

If the punishement were slightly less severe - maybe an indirect free kick and not a penalty, the referee would be more willing to give out the punishement

 

[Kenilworth]

Imagine my disappointment on opening this thread only to find that it wasn’t anything to to with a nostalgic look back at Saturday wrestling on the telly. Not a haystack in sight, no daddy that is larger than life, no Mick McManus or Kendo Nagasaki.

 

[Yewsman]

Simple really, apply the laws of the game. Blow for a foul everytime it happens and either give a free kick to the defending team or a penalty.

But the problem is how does the ref decide who gets the free kick. In practice for example say there are usually 2 players grappling each other. Who do you penalise? Is it the player who first grabs the opponents shirt or push’s him? Can the ref actually see definitely who starts it? Does a minor grab or push constitute a foul? What happens when the player whose shirt is grabbed retaliates by wrestling his opponent to the ground? Bearing in mind there are probably 18-20 players in the penalty area how can the ref possibly be expected to see everything that’s going on and who commits the first foul to give away the free kick when there are so many potential fouls all being committed by both sides at the same time?

 

[SW12 to S12 to S18]

But the problem is how does the ref decide who gets the free kick. In practice for example say there are usually 2 players grappling each other. Who do you penalise? Is it the player who first grabs the opponents shirt or push’s him? Can the ref actually see definitely who starts it? Does a minor grab or push constitute a foul? What happens when the player whose shirt is grabbed retaliates by wrestling his opponent to the ground? Bearing in mind there are probably 18-20 players in the penalty area how can the ref possibly be expected to see everything that’s going on and who commits the first foul to give away the free kick when there are so many potential fouls all being committed by both sides at the same time?

We’re getting to the point where the tail is wagging the dog. Sometimes the ref will get it wrong but if he keeps giving fouls every time it happens the players will soon stop doing it. When the players learn that wrestling will result in the corner kick being nullified by either a free kick or a penalty, the penny should drop. The longer this goes on, the more that it’s accepted as normal when in actual fact it’s not allowed under the laws of the game and piss poor weak refereeing is to blame.

 

[dexter101]

Consistency of refereeing to the rules would make a big difference. Why are we giving warnings etc, if its a foul, its a foul, award a free kick or penalty one way or another.

The only other thing I was thinking is due to me recently trying to understand the rules of Netball as my daughter has started playing.

Basically (and I may have misunderstood this) if one person grabs another, its a foul (contact). If they are both grabbing each other, its continue as normal (contest).

So basically, it would give the incentive to the attacking team, not to wrestle back (if they do, they its their own fault and it won't be penalised).

Think this is the issue at the moment, the ref doesn't know which way to go and so just wanders over for a chat!

(pretty sure I lost most of you, once I was talking about grabbing and netball...)

 

[ChipButtyBlade]

Bear hugs should be dealt with a penalty award.

 

[Greasy Chap Butty]

But the problem is how does the ref decide who gets the free kick. In practice for example say there are usually 2 players grappling each other. Who do you penalise? Is it the player who first grabs the opponents shirt or push’s him? Can the ref actually see definitely who starts it? Does a minor grab or push constitute a foul? What happens when the player whose shirt is grabbed retaliates by wrestling his opponent to the ground? Bearing in mind there are probably 18-20 players in the penalty area how can the ref possibly be expected to see everything that’s going on and who commits the first foul to give away the free kick when there are so many potential fouls all being committed by both sides at the same time?

How does the ref make those decisions in open play?

 

[Selly]

Years ago you wouldn`t see defenders defending like this. Why do they do it now? because "ball to hand" has (rightly or wrongly) become considered handball in certain situations*

Why do I bring it up? Because it demonstrates that players will alter their behaviour if they are given a reason to do so. Start giving penalties and/or free kicks and players** will change what they are doing.

I do sort of like the idea of defenders having to be in the 6 yard box and attackers outside the penalty area for every corner - but possibly only because its a novelty. It also wouldn`t solve for the same situation at free kicks.

*Not seeking a debate about the handball law - its a mess

** I suspect in reality it would be defenders that primarily change their behaviour - because the risk/reward is so imbalanced - but then IMO its normally the defenders that are doing most of the wrestling