Genuine leadership?

[Revolution]

Bad managers or not, I'd swap Middlesbrough's history post, say, 1994 for ours in a heartbeat.

It astounds me that Blades fans can dismiss their recent achievements with comments like the ones appearing in this thread.

There is an argument that Gibson has made bad managerial appointments. There is also an argument that given the amount of money he has invested, Boro should have won more.

So what? It is beyond dispute that the Gibson years (starting when the club was in Division 3 and playing at Hartlepool as they were locked out of Ayresome Park) have been the most successful in the history of the club. They had never reached a cup final. Now they've reached 4, winning 1. they had never played in Europe. Now they've been in a final.

Meanwhile, we supposedly choose superior managers and have achieved little in comparison. As Darren says, they have 12 out of the last 15 years in the top flight. We have 1 out of 15. They'll also be back in the PL before we will, you can bet on that.

And I'll bet McCabe is worth more than Gibson is. But up there, after sorting out the ground in the mid 90s, the focus is firmly on the team. That's the difference.

 

[alcoblade]

I'm missing the gist you're suggesting. I don't think many are questioning what they're done, or whether we'd swap. Only the quality of the managerial appointments.

Continue ad nausea....

UTB

 

[shorehamview]

Bad managers or not, I'd swap Middlesbrough's history post, say, 1994 for ours in a heartbeat.

That's only like deciding to swap the six foot pile of cow shit in your garden for a six foot pile of horse shit. It just so happens that one pile of shit cost a lot less that the other, but they are both, in essence, the same. Shit.

*Edit* Another possible comparison could be to a roller coaster. Middlesborough have indeed had the ups and downs, but the thing with a roller coaster is no matter how high or fast you go, it always brings you back to the point where you started. An expensive quick ride for no eventual progress.

 

[Revolution]

That's only like deciding to swap the six foot pile of cow shit in your garden for a six foot pile of horse shit. It just so happens that one pile of shit cost a lot less that the other, but they are both, in essence, the same. Shit.

Utter nonsense.

4 cup finals against no cup finals
12 PL seasons against 1 PL season
European Football against no European football
A trophy against no trophies
Juninho against Nick Montgomery

I'm sorry, but if you think Middlesbrough's last 15 years are "s***" you aren't looking at matters objectively.

 

[shorehamview]

Utter nonsense.

No, just an opinion. As relevant as yours is.

4 cup finals against no cup finals
12 PL seasons against 1 PL season
European Football against no European football
A trophy against no trophies
Juninho against Nick Montgomery

I'm sorry, but if you think Middlesbrough's last 15 years are "s***" you aren't looking at matters objectively.

I can think Middlesborough's last fifteen years are "shit" because if I'd spent the vast amounts that Gibson has I'd want a hell of a lot more than one League Cup to show from it.As compared, objectively, to other Premier League clubs who have spent a similar amount. And again, it's only my opinion that it was shit.

i'll grant you that Juninho is/was better than Monty, but he didn't stick around when they went down, did he?

 

[Darren]

Bad managers or not, I'd swap Middlesbrough's history post, say, 1994 for ours in a heartbeat.

It astounds me that Blades fans can dismiss their recent achievements with comments like the ones appearing in this thread.

There is an argument that Gibson has made bad managerial appointments. There is also an argument that given the amount of money he has invested, Boro should have won more.

So what? It is beyond dispute that the Gibson years (starting when the club was in Division 3 and playing at Hartlepool as they were locked out of Ayresome Park) have been the most successful in the history of the club. They had never reached a cup final. Now they've reached 4, winning 1. they had never played in Europe. Now they've been in a final.

Meanwhile, we supposedly choose superior managers and have achieved little in comparison. As Darren says, they have 12 out of the last 15 years in the top flight. We have 1 out of 15. They'll also be back in the PL before we will, you can bet on that.

And I'll bet McCabe is worth more than Gibson is. But up there, after sorting out the ground in the mid 90s, the focus is firmly on the team. That's the difference.

Correction: its actually 13 out of 15 in the PL since 1995 - their only non PL seasons being this one and 1997-98

 

[lenners]

No, just an opinion. As relevant as yours is.




I can think Middlesborough's last fifteen years are "shit" because if I'd spent the vast amounts that Gibson has I'd want a hell of a lot more than one League Cup to show from it.As compared, objectively, to other Premier League clubs who have spent a similar amount. And again, it's only my opinion that it was shit.

i'll grant you that Juninho is/was better than Monty, but he didn't stick around when they went down, did he?

Good Lord some reight good old small time Sheffield thinking going on here. No wonder we never achieve our potential.
Four finals and a European final in 15 years. Which clubs have bettered that?
What have Spurs, Newcastle or Man City done in that time with significantly more money spent?

 

[Micalijo]

Shoreham - how many other Prem clubs have won more than one League Cup in last 15 years? Leicester might have, Blackburn have won one, Villa one is it? It aint easy, whatever the investment. Liverpool have won a few, Spurs, even Man Utd have been trying recently - should Boro be up there with them? You try attracting players to Boro.

You and Alco really are clearly welcome to pick any argument you want with Len's original point but you have got it so badly wrong this time that it is, in my opinion, rapidly turning into a major humiliation akin to United's at Blackpool.

Nothing to do with managerial appointments, nothing to do with level of debt. McCabe has years to go until he achieves a smidgeon of what Gibson has done for Boro - Gibson has maximised potential of that club in my eyes and their sensible fans will surely forgive a couple of relegations. His success in establishing them as a Prem Club has also led to much of the current problems he has.

We support a football club not a balance sheet and I'm guessing from your comments you would rather have no debt as opposed to some silverware and a UEFA Cup final to look back on?

 

[shorehamview]

Good Lord some reight good old small time Sheffield thinking going on here. No wonder we never achieve our potential.
Four finals and a European final in 15 years. Which clubs have bettered that?
What have Spurs, Newcastle or Man City done in that time with significantly more money spent?

My thinking has, last time I looked, got bugger-all to do with Sheffield United reaching their potential. All I do provide is my support, and around four or five hundred quid a year, and I can't see that being essential to their success or not. I'm not the chairman, so whether I run around all day every day screaming United's name has got fuck-all to do with achieving our potential. Nor has your opinion, or that of any member on here, unless one is McCabe in secret.

Boro have had four finals, of which they have won one, the League Cup. And all it took was a massive influx of cash from a very wealthy idiot. And look at the lofty heights Boro have achieved. They are in the second tier, and have just sacked their manager. Haven't they done well!

 

[shorehamview]

Shoreham - how many other Prem clubs have won more than one League Cup in last 15 years? Leicester might have, Blackburn have won one, Villa one is it? It aint easy, whatever the investment. Liverpool have won a few, Spurs, even Man Utd have been trying recently - should Boro be up there with them? You try attracting players to Boro.

You and Alco really are clearly welcome to pick any argument you want with Len's original point but you have got it so badly wrong this time that it is, in my opinion, rapidly turning into a major humiliation akin to United's at Blackpool.

Nothing to do with managerial appointments, nothing to do with level of debt. McCabe has years to go until he achieves a smidgeon of what Gibson has done for Boro - Gibson has maximised potential of that club in my eyes and their sensible fans will surely forgive a couple of relegations. His success in establishing them as a Prem Club has also led to much of the current problems he has.

We support a football club not a balance sheet and I'm guessing from your comments you would rather have no debt as opposed to some silverware and a UEFA Cup final to look back on?

My main point is that Boro are hardly the example we should be following. All they have done is launch a massive amount of cash at the club, and for an estimated £200 million I'd be heartily fucked off if all there was to show for it was one League Cup and a place in the second tier of English football.

I'm not saying that McCabe is better than Gibson, it's just that the ability to chuck cash around like it's going out of fashion doesn't equate with strong leadership.

 

[lenners]

My thinking has, last time I looked, got bugger-all to do with Sheffield United reaching their potential. All I do provide is my support, and around four or five hundred quid a year, and I can't see that being essential to their success or not. I'm not the chairman, so whether I run around all day every day screaming United's name has got fuck-all to do with achieving our potential. Nor has your opinion, or that of any member on here, unless one is McCabe in secret.

Boro have had four finals, of which they have won one, the League Cup. And all it took was a massive influx of cash from a very wealthy idiot. And look at the lofty heights Boro have achieved. They are in the second tier, and have just sacked their manager. Haven't they done well!

That's about the most banal argument I've ever read.
What have Newcastle won with significantly more money from more 'idiots' over the same period?
Man City? Spurs? Aston Villa? Everton? Leeds?
And the fans' views have a major impact on the club, they've even been known to lead to the removal of managers.

 

[shorehamview]

That's about the most banal argument I've ever read.
What have Newcastle won with significantly more money from more 'idiots' over the same period?
Man City? Spurs? Aston Villa? Everton? Leeds?
And the fans' views have a major impact on the club, they've even been known to lead to the removal of managers.

I didn't mention any of those clubs. You started it with the statement about Gibson's "genuine leadership". Newcastle being shite and Gibson slinging money around are totally unrelated. I just happen to think that if you want a decent chairman then perhaps Steve Gibson shouldn't be top of the list. Given around £200 million any of us should be capable of getting a side to win a League Cup.

Yes, Newcastle have been run by idiots, but just because they are possibly one of the worst run clubs in the universe it doesn't make Steve Gibson the best thing since sliced bread.

 

[Darren]

I didn't mention any of those clubs. You started it with the statement about Gibson's "genuine leadership". Newcastle being shite and Gibson slinging money around are totally unrelated. I just happen to think that if you want a decent chairman then perhaps Steve Gibson shouldn't be top of the list. Given around £200 million any of us should be capable of getting a side to win a League Cup.

Yes, Newcastle have been run by idiots, but just because they are possibly one of the worst run clubs in the universe it doesn't make Steve Gibson the best thing since sliced bread.

Len's argument is highly relevant. Over the past 15 years, outside the big 4, you would be hard put to find a club more successful than Middlesbrough

To reiterate, Boro have had 13 years in the PL, won the League Cup been in 3 domestic cup finals and a European Final. compare that to Everton, Spurs, Villa. Man City and Newcastle in that period:

Everton: 15 years in the PL. 1 FA cup win (1995) 1 FA cup final
Spurs: 15 years in the PL, 2 league cup wins, 2 league cup finals
Villa: 15 years in the PL 1 league cup win, 1 FA cup final
Newcastle 14 years in the PL, 2 league runners up 2 FA cup finals
Man City 10 years in the PL, no trophies or finals.

All of those 5 clubs would traditionally been seen as bigger than Boro and all, I rather suspect have had a similar amount of money thrown at them over the last 15 years, yet Boro's record is comparable to theirs.

You are very much on a losing wicket trying to defend your "shite" comment about Boro.

 

[alcoblade]

You and Alco really are clearly welcome to pick any argument you want with Len's original point but you have got it so badly wrong this time that it is, in my opinion, rapidly turning into a major humiliation akin to United's at Blackpool.

It's you who can't grasp the simplicity of what I'm saying, which is;

I think Robson, McClaren and Southgate were poor appointments. I have no opinion about anything else that Boro have done in those 15 years, other than I agree, I'd swap.

If you think those managers are good managers, you're welcome to disagree and we can debate it. Stop attaching all the other points to me. I'm not making them. The only thing that seems humiliating to me is that you can't grasp such and incredibly simple point, and separate what I am saying from what I'm not.

UTB

 

[Micalijo]

It's you who can't grasp the simplicity of what I'm saying, which is;

I think Robson, McClaren and Southgate were poor appointments. I have no opinion about anything else that Boro have done in those 15 years, other than I agree, I'd swap.

If you think those managers are good managers, you're welcome to disagree and we can debate it. Stop attaching all the other points to me. I'm not making them. The only thing that seems humiliating to me is that you can't grasp such and incredibly simple point, and separate what I am saying from what I'm not.

UTB

I still don't know what you expect any manager of Boro to achieve, even with £200m - and that is fair enough question to ask you I think in this context because you think they have under-achieved as you said earlier.

Win multiple FA Cups when big 4 have virtually monopolised it. Qualify for Champions League?

No I don't think Robson is a good manager, McClaren did a decent job in my opinion and Southgate was a strange one yes.

 

[alcoblade]

I still don't know what you expect any manager of Boro to achieve, even with £200m - and that is fair enough question to ask you I think in this context because you think they have under-achieved as you said earlier.

Win multiple FA Cups when big 4 have virtually monopolised it. Qualify for Champions League?

No I don't think Robson is a good manager, McClaren did a decent job in my opinion and Southgate was a strange one yes.

I don't expect anything and have no strong opinions, but yes as a club they did well. I think however well they did was down to investment on the pitch, not the management of the players. You've conceded 2 out of 3 were poor. So it's only McClaren up for debate. I think he too is a poor manager who exploited the ManUre link to the full.

UTB

 

[LoughboroBlade]

How did that work out for them?
You can actually say that when we apparently haven't even got one single young player good enough to fill a place on our bench despite us being crap most of the season and playing in a crap league?
Jeez.

I'm not sure why the fact I've dared to suggest Gibson doesn't have particularly good judgement in his past managerial decisions (which in the case of Robson and Southgate seems to be something that you don't need a degree in rocket science to see was clearly lacking) turns into a criticism on our own youth system.

I'm sure if we played a team full of youth players, we'd get relegated too, though you could at least take solace in the fact that we did it with a team littered with academy players.

Tell me, did it work out well for them? They were 13th the season before last, so presumably it was a mid-table finish at the very least?

 

[GRUMPY BLADE]

I reckon that there are many United fans who have put a higher percentage of their money into United than McCabe has.

Once McC has got the Tezez money he will have invested very little. He loaned it!!!!!!

 

[lenners]

I'm not sure why the fact I've dared to suggest Gibson doesn't have particularly good judgement in his past managerial decisions (which in the case of Robson and Southgate seems to be something that you don't need a degree in rocket science to see was clearly lacking) turns into a criticism on our own youth system.

I'm sure if we played a team full of youth players, we'd get relegated too, though you could at least take solace in the fact that we did it with a team littered with academy players.

Tell me, did it work out well for them? They were 13th the season before last, so presumably it was a mid-table finish at the very least?

Dunno, how much have they raised in player sales from their academy? How many have played for England? How many seasons did they spend in the Prem with a number of players from their academy either in the first team or squad?
Yup, I'd say it worked out pretty well for them.
As for Robson and Southgate, remind me what record Robson had at Middlesbrough?
As for Southgate, following a manager who had taken the club to a Euro final was a tough act to follow but he did ok up until last year.
Neither were particularly good managers but they clearly weren't useless either.

 

[LoughboroBlade]

remind me what record Robson had at Middlesbrough?

You really want me to cut and paste my 'why Bryan Robson's moderate success was purely down to money' post from summer 2007? I can unearth it if need be.

Following a manager that has done reasonably well is a tough job. Judging that they're out of their depth (i.e. the chairman's job) is much easier to do, especially after seeing their ability for a full season.

Johnson and Wheater apart, which current Boro players from their academy have you been particularly impressed with?

 

[Revolution]

No, just an opinion. As relevant as yours is.

Normally, I'd agree with that, but not in this case. You "opinion" is comparing two club's records over a 15 year period, one vastly better than the other on any objective measure, and saying they are the same. That is nonsense. And it looks like I'm not alone in this view.

 

[shorehamview]

No, just an opinion. As relevant as yours is.

Normally, I'd agree with that, but not in this case. You "opinion" is comparing two club's records over a 15 year period, one vastly better than the other on any objective measure, and saying they are the same. That is nonsense. And it looks like I'm not alone in this view.

My opinion isn't relevant? Thanks for deciding that. I'm really glad we have members such as you, self-appointed arbiters of what is and what isn't a relevant opinion. Thanks very much for letting us know who can and who can't post. Hurray for you.

My main argument is that given the vast differences between the money spent by Boro and United over the period that Gibson has been chairman I would have expected slightly better than one League Cup to be the total of trophies won. And in the end Gibson's "strong" leadership has led Middlesbrough to the dizzy heights of fourth in the second tier of English football - a mighty six points clear of us.

But you obviously have decided that my "opinion" isn't valid, and that everybody else posting on here agrees with you. Why don't we get Foxy to change the forum name to "Everyone Should Agree With Revolution And Lenners, Because They Hold The Only Points Of View That Are Valid, Because They Say So.com"?

 

[lenners]

But Shoreham this point in time isn't the end, is it? It's just a point in time and it makes no sense to judge Gibson's record on where they happen to be on October 23, 2009.

 

[lenners]

You really want me to cut and paste my 'why Bryan Robson's moderate success was purely down to money' post from summer 2007? I can unearth it if need be.

Following a manager that has done reasonably well is a tough job. Judging that they're out of their depth (i.e. the chairman's job) is much easier to do, especially after seeing their ability for a full season.

Johnson and Wheater apart, which current Boro players from their academy have you been particularly impressed with?

Didn't Cattermole and Downing come through their academy as well?
That's four high quality players that have come through in recent years.
It's an outstanding record.

 

[shorehamview]

But Shoreham this point in time isn't the end, is it? It's just a point in time and it makes no sense to judge Gibson's record on where they happen to be on October 23, 2009.

Firstly, it's shorehamview, cheers. Or possibly sv. Not Shoreham. Thanks.
And secondly, I didn't start with the Middlesborough comparisons. I just picked up the stick and chewed it a bit.

And by your reasoning it makes no sense to judge McCabe or Blackwell's record by where United happen to be on October 23, 2009. It isn't the end, is it? It's just a point in time.

 

[Darren]

My opinion isn't relevant? Thanks for deciding that. I'm really glad we have members such as you, self-appointed arbiters of what is and what isn't a relevant opinion. Thanks very much for letting us know who can and who can't post. Hurray for you.

My main argument is that given the vast differences between the money spent by Boro and United over the period that Gibson has been chairman I would have expected slightly better than one League Cup to be the total of trophies won. And in the end Gibson's "strong" leadership has led Middlesbrough to the dizzy heights of fourth in the second tier of English football - a mighty six points clear of us.

But you obviously have decided that my "opinion" isn't valid, and that everybody else posting on here agrees with you. Why don't we get Foxy to change the forum name to "Everyone Should Agree With Revolution And Lenners, Because They Hold The Only Points Of View That Are Valid, Because They Say So.com"?

This is a particular bugbear of mine - this idea (for which I blame postmodernisnm) that every opinion is as good or as relevant as any other.

This is clearly not true. There are standard rules of logic and evidence that we judge opinions by and if someone's opinion measures up less well to those rules than someone else's then, yes, their opinion is less good or relevant.

Measured by those rules, my view and Revolution's view and lots of other people's view is that your opinion is less valid on the whole Boro controversy. We have put forward reasons why we think that and have not resorted to indirect personal abuse in doing so.

 

[lenners]

Firstly, it's shorehamview, cheers. Or possibly sv. Not Shoreham. Thanks.
And secondly, I didn't start with the Middlesborough comparisons. I just picked up the stick and chewed it a bit.

And by your reasoning it makes no sense to judge McCabe or Blackwell's record by where United happen to be on October 23, 2009. It isn't the end, is it? It's just a point in time.

But you make my point shoreham.
You're the only one taking today as judgement day. Everyone else is looking at what Middlesbrough achieved over the last decade or so.

 

[shorehamview]

But you make my point shoreham.
You're the only one taking today as judgement day. Everyone else is looking at what Middlesbrough achieved over the last decade or so.

My point, le, was that Steve Gibson is not perhaps the best example of a modern chairman.

 

[shorehamview]

This is a particular bugbear of mine - this idea (for which I blame postmodernisnm) that every opinion is as good or as relevant as any other.

This is clearly not true. There are standard rules of logic and evidence that we judge opinions by and if someone's opinion measures up less well to those rules than someone else's then, yes, their opinion is less good or relevant.

Measured by those rules, my view and Revolution's view and lots of other people's view is that your opinion is less valid on the whole Boro controversy. We have put forward reasons why we think that and have not resorted to indirect personal abuse in doing so.

I'll not bother arguing with the Gospel According To You Two then. I didn't realise you were the arbiters of what is and isn't a valid opinion. It's great that you are here to tell us what is and what isn't valid. What next? Do we need your permission to merely post? Shall we put every post forward for your critique as to what is and what isn't a valid opinion? I might not agree with what you say, but I won't suggest that your opinion is less valid.

If this is the quality of the argument that Blades United used to attract then thank God it's dead. If you disagree with the likes of lenners and company then

your opinion is less valid

Thanks fellas, we'll all not bother having a differing opinion then, as you are correct in everything and nobody is allowed to disagree.

Freedom of speech. Just watch what you say.

 

[Linz]

Gentlemen.

As stated previously, the only people who can prevent others having their say is Foxy and myself.

Can we get back on topic please and stop getting personal? Frankly, I'm getting rather sick of all the bickering so will start stepping in. Consider this a final warning.

As far as the rules of the forum are concerned, everyone has a right to voice an opinion. We prefer that those opinions are discussed without resorting to childish "you can't say that" behaviour.

Foxy and myself are not prepared to pay for this board if this is the kind of thing that's going to become the norm.

Cut it out... that goes for you all.