Fate? Media? Fans? Club?

[Gingerblade]

It's all relative Dunc. Football has indeed moved on but it's SUFC that have been left behind. I can't think of any other team that 'enjoys' as bad a reputation as us for playing turgid, mind- numbing hoof. It's not as though it's even effective any more. Wimbledon are deceased; Dinosaur Dave is extinct. It's a self-serving misrepresentation to suggest that everyone wallows in the same mediocrity as we do. The vast majority of teams attempt to pass the ball and many do it to very good effect. We lap up Sunday League punts and laud nonentities like Kozluk and Montgomery. So called lesser teams run rings round us week-in:week-out. It's embarrassing but slightly less so than admitting that we actually enjoy this tripe. I'm ashamed to read the outpouring of drivel generated by a change of manager and a home draw against 10 man Donny.

Just in case anyone with any sanity is reading this: We are not all Neanderthals, they don't speak for me!

Try moving into the 20th century, eh?

I take ur point, call me old fasioned or what not, but i just luv to see us in peoples faces, showing some passion, getting a good tackle in.

Right now, its exactly what we need, tippy tappy can wait until next season!

PS, big Sam has been lauded for England, and he is hardly an advocote of passing football.

 

[Pinchy]

I don't Jim. I was there and got excited myself. It's the notion that such excitement can only be generated by 'direct football' of the most basic kind.

As an intelligent Blade you must realise that people are actually saying (and, even more incredibly, with approval and enthusiasm) that:

1. SUFC are not fit to play any sort of football that requires more than the most basic ability.
2. That state of affairs is not a sorry one; it is to be welcomed.
3. Fans of other clubs are allowed to see attractive, skill-based play - we are not. That is a good thing.
4. There is no point in us recruiting or retaining talented players. We don't want that sort of thing here.
5. Trevor Birch is wrong to want to change our style.
6. John Pemberton is wholly misguided in seeking to develop talented players who can control, retain and use a football creatively. He must cease such nonsense immediately. His job is to churn out a succession of Montgomery clones. He must alter his ways or we risk introducing proper football into the first team in due course. If he refuses to repent he must be sacked.

Do you wonder that I despair. I really don't want to support the same team as those promulgating the present drivel but, sadly for them, I'm staying (and not quietly!)

Sorry Mr. Messi, no place for you here; We prefer Mr. Messy.

---------- Post added at 09:21 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:12 PM ----------

You can always go and watch Donny Rovers, just like the 1971 side-won sod all.

But we support United! For over 50 years in my case. Why on earth would we want to go and watch any other team?

Why should we not want better for and from our own club?

I wish people would stop using this line of argument. It lacks any logic and is actually quite insulting.

 

[muttsnuts]

I don't Jim. I was there and got excited myself. It's the notion that such excitement can only be generated by 'direct football' of the most basic kind.

As an intelligent Blade you must realise that people are actually saying (and, even more incredibly, with approval and enthusiasm) that:

1. SUFC are not fit to play any sort of football that requires more than the most basic ability.
2. That state of affairs is not a sorry one; it is to be welcomed.
3. Fans of other clubs are allowed to see attractive, skill-based play - we are not. That is a good thing.
4. There is no point in us recruiting or retaining talented players. We don't want that sort of thing here.
5. Trevor Birch is wrong to want to change our style.
6. John Pemberton is wholly misguided in seeking to develop talented players who can control, retain and use a football creatively. He must cease such nonsense immediately. His job is to churn out a succession of Montgomery clones. He must alter his ways or we risk introducing proper football into the first team in due course. If he refuses to repent he must be sacked.

Do you wonder that I despair. I really don't want to support the same team as those promulgating the present drivel but, sadly for them, I'm staying (and not quietly!)

Sorry Mr. Messi, no place for you here; We prefer Mr. Messy.

---------- Post added at 09:21 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:12 PM ----------



But we support United! For over 50 years in my case. Why on earth would we want to go and watch any other team?

Why should we not want better for and from our own club?

I wish people would stop using this line of argument. It lacks any logic and is actually quite insulting.

What is insulting is telling people what sort of football they should be watching.

 

[GRUMPY BLADE]

Both Ginger and Jim sum things up quite well, it's what the club needs at this moment in time. We all need to fall in love again with our Blades.

 

[Jostein Flo]

There's quite a bit of 2 + 2 = 3'490'567 in this thread... Why does it have to be black or white, hoofball or flowing football? Free flowing football is not the exlusive reserve of other teams and the use of direct tactics to suit the players we have at the moment doesn't mean that we need to scrap the academy and recruit Vinnie Jones and John Fashanu.

Don't get me wrong I'd love to watch us take teams apart with couter attacking football and it's something for us and every football club to aspire to. But... it's not a style that suits our current set of players and it's not style that will get us results at the moment. For all the plaudits that Donny and SO'D have had from the media for their style of football they've won nothing, been a mid-table Championship side and for the last few seasons all the Donny fans at work have only complained about them getting taken apart by big physical teams.

Get the squad playing with passion and confidence again, get the fans back onside and most importantly get the results. Then we can start worrying about whether we're Arsenal or The Crazy Gang.

 

[bricktop]

It's all well and good playing pretty football, but it looks fucking shit when your fighting at the bottom of the table for your life and need points fast.

I don't see why we should play pretty football just for the sake of it, i think a bigger priority is to make the side hard to beat at first, and then start thinking about playing the attractive stuff

 

[Pinchy]

I'm told that Micky's Port Vale team played good passing football. Do they have better players than us? Robbie Savage said he insisted on possession play at Brighton - did they have better players than us?

Of course passing football doesn't suit non-footballers like Mongomery, Quinn and Kozluk - that's axiomatic. I suspect Leon Britton and Lee Williamson would be in their element. Add 2 or 3 more who can play (get rid of the three amigos to finance it) and we're on our way.

 

[alcoblade]

I'm told that Micky's Port Vale team played good passing football. Do they have better players than us? Robbie Savage said he insisted on possession play at Brighton - did they have better players than us?

Of course passing football doesn't suit non-footballers like Mongomery, Quinn and Kozluk - that's axiomatic. I suspect Leon Britton and Lee Williamson would be in their element. Add 2 or 3 more who can play (get rid of the three amigos to finance it) and we're on our way.

For the respective divisions, they probably had better players than us. And he perhaps had more time to bring about his style, whatever it is. Right now, the priority is avoiding relegation. I think you'll agree that on a short timescale and with the players we have, the best odds of that are with uglier football?

UTB

 

[DuncDisorderly]

It's a self-serving misrepresentation to suggest that everyone wallows in the same mediocrity as we do. The vast majority of teams attempt to pass the ball and many do it to very good effect.

I really think you are overstating the case for the prosecution and ignoring the case for the defence Pinchy. Even the mighty Doncaster with their silky football is really just pass it around the back four then look for a channel ball. IMO We are not an abomination as you seem to think. We mix it up a bit and I've seen us 'play nice triangles and move into space' but I've also seen a lot of long ball to the topmost hair of the strikers head.

We've had (arguably) four seasons and a half now of a team playing without spirit and confidence as we've seemingly said one thing about style, but lost our nerve when got to the changing room. Negative formations full of players either playing out of position or to a game plan they didnt seem to understand. What I think has caused the excitement from the Donny game is not the style or pattern of play, but that in the middle of a bad run, in a disappointing season, we snatched a deserved point from 2-0 down and 5 mins to play. Yes it was exciting. No, I dont want to see it every week. I want us to be beating teams 3-0 and playing them off the park.

It simply indicates that we have some spirit and fight and determination to get out of the self inflicted mire we are in, and we seem to have a clue in the manager how to play to the strengths of what we have. Adams will change it over time, but this is a big step forwards. You are just going to have to be patient before we see a team capable of quick, flowing, attacking football. He has only had two games I believe..?

 

[Revolution]

I can't think of any other team that 'enjoys' as bad a reputation as us for playing turgid, mind- numbing hoof.

Bolton and Stoke both carry that reputation, fair or not. I haven't seen either this season but it was certainly justified last year in the case of Stoke.

You can play the most aesthetically pleasing football since Holland circa 1974 and no one will care (or watch) if you're getting thrashed out of sight every week. I want to stay up, because that's best for the club, and I don't care how we do it.

And I am sick of hearing that what Doncaster do is the "right way to play". If you can't get enjoyment out of a long ball team that uses wingers, effectively plays 4-2-4 and scores bucketloads of goals, you didn't like Bassett's back to back promotion sides. Plus whilst I enjoyed the early Kendall era and the football that was played, the turgid caution that came in away from home post Boxing Day 1996 (worst example - the play off final) was as bad as anything we saw from Blackwell. Indeed, one vivid memory from the Kendall era is watching United at Luton in early 1996 passing the ball like I'd never seen. It was a masterclass in ball retention - and we lost 1-0, as we never had a shot. We were too busy passing. I suspect there's a lot of that at Doncaster when Sharp isn't playing.

As for the Academy and the first team being incompatible, I don't buy it. If they are good enough, they'll fit into any system. Michael Tonge was hardly the sort of player that Warnock would go out and sign but he was a mainstay of Warnock's side for 5 years because he brought value to the table. There are players who can fit into one system and not others (Paul Shaw, possibly Cotterill, though that's more managerial stupidity than incompatability) but they are few and far between.

 

[beechblade]

Right now we are fighting for our lives, and BDTBL has lost its soul and atmosphere, it was nice to see some of that soul being brought back with the team showing desire to get something out that game, we could have quite easily dropped our heads at 2-0 down and just rode the game out, but we didn't.

I have to say Monday wasn't a game of just hoof, for us, we played some good quick direct football, on the ground that was able to create us the space required to get good crosses in, our one main bit of total hoof came from Simmo when he punted the ball forward and Donny misjugded the ball and it allowed Ched to get in. For most of the time we played some good football across the middle to get the ball out to our wings, one thing I noticed is when we got it to the wings we played some earlier crosses, instead of trying to beat everyman and their dog in defence. We created more problems this way and it can be seen in the total number of chances created, for once firmly in double figures. The thing we saw and the thing that made me happy was the desire and passion to get something out of the game and maybe this came from being a little more direct in our approach. Had we played free flowing suppossed football that Donny play, we may not have chased the ball down as much, we may have just sat off and watched the Yorkshire Brazilian side pass it across their back four. What good would that have done on Monday?

As for Doncaster and total football they hardly played this tactic, they made a few nice moves, all of which came from Coppinger being involved and the rest they played it across the back four with a nice boot forward into space for Sharp and Hayter to chase down and bring their midfield into play, it was hardly fluent football as one report called it. Right now we need passion and desire to gain something out of nothing, I'll worry about our 'Style' next season when MA has a chance to build his squad.

 

[Jim Chimmerney]

Plenty of good posts and I think everyone's basically in agreement

Get the passion back, get the fans excited again and the rest will take it's course.

 

[SBSP]

Fuck fancy football, all I want is players of our own that are willing to fight for the club with a bit of passion to get me excited about going to football again.

This does not mean I want pointless hoofball, there are times to try and keep possession and there are times when you just need to get it in to the box and make something happen - it doesn't just have to be one or the other!

 

[Pinchy]

I really think you are overstating the case for the prosecution and ignoring the case for the defence Pinchy. Even the mighty Doncaster with their silky football is really just pass it around the back four then look for a channel ball. IMO We are not an abomination as you seem to think. We mix it up a bit and I've seen us 'play nice triangles and move into space' but I've also seen a lot of long ball to the topmost hair of the strikers head.

We've had (arguably) four seasons and a half now of a team playing without spirit and confidence as we've seemingly said one thing about style, but lost our nerve when got to the changing room. Negative formations full of players either playing out of position or to a game plan they didnt seem to understand. What I think has caused the excitement from the Donny game is not the style or pattern of play, but that in the middle of a bad run, in a disappointing season, we snatched a deserved point from 2-0 down and 5 mins to play. Yes it was exciting. No, I dont want to see it every week. I want us to be beating teams 3-0 and playing them off the park.

It simply indicates that we have some spirit and fight and determination to get out of the self inflicted mire we are in, and we seem to have a clue in the manager how to play to the strengths of what we have. Adams will change it over time, but this is a big step forwards. You are just going to have to be patient before we see a team capable of quick, flowing, attacking football. He has only had two games I believe..?

Insomnia or early shift?

I'm not having a go at the manager. My present state of despair is brought about by the 'We Love Hoofball' evangelists who are presently assaulting us with their utter drivel.

It's had it's time lads: been found out years ago. Everyone but the SUFC Dinosaur Society has moved on. Our style of hoofball makes Stoke look like Brazil '70.

 

[LSF]

I'm told that Micky's Port Vale team played good passing football. Do they have better players than us? Robbie Savage said he insisted on possession play at Brighton - did they have better players than us?

Of course passing football doesn't suit non-footballers like Mongomery, Quinn and Kozluk - that's axiomatic. I suspect Leon Britton and Lee Williamson would be in their element. Add 2 or 3 more who can play (get rid of the three amigos to finance it) and we're on our way.

Pinchy, do you actually think Lee Williamson is a 'good footballer' in the sense you imply here?
He's certainly got energy, likes a tackle, gets from box to box and times his arrival in the opponents box well. However, I don't think his passing and ball retention is particulary spectacular. He's maybe a slightly more refined version of your old favourite Mr Monty

 

[Pinchy]

I think he's a very good all-rounder LSF, certainly at Championship level. The way he has hit the ground running after such a long and serious lay-off is little short of remakable and does him enormous credit. I'd have expected you to be an admirer?

Contrary to popular belief I do not expect our team to play like Barcelona / Arsenal, though an occasional nod in their direction would do no harm. I can see your point. We'll have to agree to differ on the 'slightly' aspect!

I have consistently said that my ideal central midfield [I am a diehard 4-4-2 man] comprises of a ball player who can do a bit of the messy stuff as well and a more functional player who is probably bigger and tougher and does the 'hard yards' but can play a bit as well. In other words each can do a bit of the other's job. This is where you and I have long since agreed to differ about Sir Nick. I see Willo as the latter player: You would probably say Monty could do it as well. In our present squad the ideal pairing, by my criteria, would be Willo and Leon Britton.

 

[muttsnuts]

Insomnia or early shift?

I'm not having a go at the manager. My present state of despair is brought about by the 'We Love Hoofball' evangelists who are presently assaulting us with their utter drivel.

It's had it's time lads: been found out years ago. Everyone but the SUFC Dinosaur Society has moved on. Our style of hoofball makes Stoke look like Brazil '70.

Yawn.....zzzzzzz

 

[LSF]

I think he's a very good all-rounder LSF, certainly at Championship level. The way he has hit the ground running after such a long and serious lay-off is little short of remakable and does him enormous credit. I'd have expected you to be an admirer?

Contrary to popular belief I do not expect our team to play like Barcelona / Arsenal, though an occasional nod in their direction would do no harm. I can see your point. We'll have to agree to differ on the 'slightly' aspect!

I have consistently said that my ideal central midfield [I am a diehard 4-4-2 man] comprises of a ball player who can do a bit of the messy stuff as well and a more functional player who is probably bigger and tougher and does the 'hard yards' but can play a bit as well. In other words each can do a bit of the other's job. This is where you and I have long since agreed to differ about Sir Nick. I see Willo as the latter player: You would probably say Monty could do it as well. In our present squad the ideal pairing, by my criteria, would be Willo and Leon Britton.

Oh I am an admirer, very much so and i think we are a much better team with LW's presence within it and i agree with you that his recovery and contribution so soon after the injury and subsequent difficulties has to be commended (having had that same op twice, i know how difficult it is to recover!)
I like 442 but also if 451 is executed correctly with the right personnel it can be just as effective, however, the average British player is 442 engendered!
I've always advocated a mix and match style too and I think too many believe we just knock it aimlessly long because thats what they want to think.
I'm always interested in your views.

 

[Jim Chimmerney]

Oh I am an admirer, very much so and i think we are a much better team with LW's presence within it and i agree with you that his recovery and contribution so soon after the injury and subsequent difficulties has to be commended (having had that same op twice, i know how difficult it is to recover!)
I like 442 but also if 451 is executed correctly with the right personnel it can be just as effective, however, the average British player is 442 engendered!
I've always advocated a mix and match style too and I think too many believe we just knock it aimlessly long because thats what they want to think.
I'm always interested in your views.

4-5-1 can easily be 4-3-3 as Blackpool have shown. The problem Blackwell had, and to a lesser extent Speed, is that we didn't have the players to carry it out.

I can see Willo and hopefully Reid fitting into that system really well with Britton doing the donkey work. Add Yeates and Wardy into the mix and it's a very fluid and attacking front 6. Maybe too attack minded but as I say, it didn't do Blackpool any harm.

 

[Highbury_Blade]

4-5-1 can easily be 4-3-3 as Blackpool have shown. The problem Blackwell had, and to a lesser extent Speed, is that we didn't have the players to carry it out.

I can see Willo and hopefully Reid fitting into that system really well with Britton doing the donkey work. Add Yeates and Wardy into the mix and it's a very fluid and attacking front 6. Maybe too attack minded but as I say, it didn't do Blackpool any harm.

I'd love that attacking lineup, but Adams will have to do some good work this transfer window to sort out the defence in order for us to be able to play like that.

 

[SESKU Blade]

I couldn't really care what type of football we play as long as we go out with a winning mentality and to attack teams. All too often we're set up not to lose rather than to go out and win. Essentially we seem to worry too much about the opposition rather than taking the game to them.

Even though Blackwell got us to play offs his style was too negative with awful aimless balls lumped forward time and time again, he got away with because we hadn't sold the defence off. Had he been more positive in a couple of games I think we would have clinched automatic promotion.

It's an old saying but attack is the best form of defence.

ATTACK.....ATTACK.....ATTACK,ATTACK,ATTACK

 

[Jim Chimmerney]

I'd love that attacking lineup, but Adams will have to do some good work this transfer window to sort out the defence in order for us to be able to play like that.

True, but if you look at Blackpool's defence, it's mainly the defence they came up from Div 1 with !

Short term Bartley is a must to keep fit but we definitely need an experienced CB to go alongside him and a LB if Jordan is struggling. We could probably get by with Calve, Lowton and Kozzy (can't believe I said that !!) and as others have said Nos at RB is much less of a worry but I think MA knows it's the defence 1st and foremost he needs to sort, particularly as that's the area he concentrates on in training.

 

[cooperblade]

I have consistently said that my ideal central midfield [I am a diehard 4-4-2 man] comprises of a ball player who can do a bit of the messy stuff as well and a more functional player who is probably bigger and tougher and does the 'hard yards' but can play a bit as well. In other words each can do a bit of the other's job. This is where you and I have long since agreed to differ about Sir Nick. I see Willo as the latter player: You would probably say Monty could do it as well. In our present squad the ideal pairing, by my criteria, would be Willo and Leon Britton.

Do you think Britton is good enough at the 'messy stuff' to play in a midfield 4?

He's a very willing runner and I've got no issue with his tracking back. However, I'm not sure he's very effective when he is in defensive situations. He's obviously going to struggle to win headers and I don't think his positioning is always great in defensive situations - Hull's winner was a great example, maybe he just couldn't get back quickly enough but he was alongside Monty rather than behind him meaning Stewart could beat both of them easily.

I see Britton as being a good asset in a 5 man midfield but a luxury we can't afford in a 4.

At the moment, my preferred central 2 would be Williamson (who I think is excellent at this level) and Monty. In an ideal world, we'd find someone with Monty's workrate, drive and willingness to get forward who was 6' 2", a bit more composed on the ball and a goal threat. Anyone fit the bill who is available for £50,000?!

 

[Pinchy]

I've never seen him play Coops so I can't adopt it as my own view but fans of St. Pats would say that David McAllister is just about the man you describe!

Let's hope so.