FAO Those who want Wilder out

[Robboblade1889]

The plan ceases to be live when landmarks are missed and targets not hit.

I'm sure getting relegated was planned for and there are contingency plans in place. However, they cease to be relevant if our £100m investments have bombed, our current assets have aged beyond being fit for purpose and there is a disenfranchised customer base...

Like I say, a lot will depend on the behind the scenes conversations but I can't see us being in a position where we want to be paying for x2 managers and starting the project all over again.

That will happen if we decide to sack wilder. This is why most of us want him to stay, we don’t want to get on the managerial merry go round.

 

[IdLiketoRogerMoore]

That will happen if we decide to sack wilder. This is why most of us want him to stay, we don’t want to get on the managerial merry go round.

Absolutely. And if the new manager tanks next season and we have to sack him, then we'll be paying x3 managers this time next year...

As bad as we think things are right now, they can still spiral downwards if we a wrong decision now..

 

[FMBlade1]

Of course you were saying all these things last season (signing Osborn and other English players, sticking with 3-5-2 and having the same coaches) when United were on the brink of Europe? Weren’t you?

Not quite sure why you're making this about me but since you mention it:

Tactically outdone | S24SU Forum | Sheffield United Community Post made August 2019

Scouting infrastructure problems | Page 3 | S24SU Forum | Sheffield United Community Post made August 2017

These were issues I recognized could affect us long term and sadly I've been proven right.

Last season we had momentum and our system caught people out and we were underestimated, still a great achievement.

Sadly it's outlifted it's usefulness and Wilder needs to adapt accordingly.

I don't see much evidence of Wilder willing to adapt or change unfortunately, I can only hope he does.

 

[Chris53153]

Cant disagree with much in this thread but perspective is needed with regards to the squad that wilder has assembled. He tried to sign so many players only to be beaten on wages or fees because he simply wasn't backed like his peers. I get the wage structure argument but if you don't adapt it you can only progress for so long. Then covid came and wiped out any benefit to us of the second season in the prem due to the loss of income. I'm still sure this total capitulation wouldn't have happened with the lane full. The saddest thing for me is we never got to cheer them round the ground on the last home game after last season. They deserved it.

 

[Iffy Onuora's Shiny Head]

The two big areas where our current plight has stemmed from is all in recruitment since promotion. I understand the intention of gambling on some younger players to help move our aging squad to a Fresh exciting premier league team but it has completely failed.

Second that with the "pros" we have brought in - they are no where near the standard required even for back up, and we have paid players wages like rodwell who are never going to play for us, and given long contracts to aging players such as Steven's and Norwood.

I really do fear that we have now acquired dead wood who's hearts wont be in it for a championship promotion push.

In hindsight we should have taken the gambles on a slightly lower calibre of player - such as Ivan Toney or the Arsenal youth player, and spent the 100m on Berge, Mcburnie, Brewster and Ramsdale on Pros that we knew could step up (like those found in Burnleys squad) and have some options to play different ways, such as with pacey wingers or a CAM that could pick up the ball and drive us forward.

 

[Deleted member 23679]

The two big areas where our current plight has stemmed from is all in recruitment since promotion. I understand the intention of gambling on some younger players to help move our aging squad to a Fresh exciting premier league team but it has completely failed.

Second that with the "pros" we have brought in - they are no where near the standard required even for back up, and we have paid players wages like rodwell who are never going to play for us, and given long contracts to aging players such as Steven's and Norwood.

I really do fear that we have now acquired dead wood who's hearts wont be in it for a championship promotion push.

In hindsight we should have taken the gambles on a slightly lower calibre of player - such as Ivan Toney or the Arsenal youth player, and spent the 100m on Berge, Mcburnie, Brewster and Ramsdale on Pros that we knew could step up (like those found in Burnleys squad) and have some options to play different ways, such as with pacey wingers or a CAM that could pick up the ball and drive us forward.

Ageing players, Stevens was 29 when he got his new contract and in the form of his life, and Norwood is still in his 20s.

 

[A Storm of Blades]

Of course you were saying all these things last season (signing Osborn and other English players, sticking with 3-5-2 and having the same coaches) when United were on the brink of Europe? Weren’t you?

You’re making a very basic argument here. I think some of us are arguing for flexibility and adaptability. To change and tinker with a team that’s doing well is equally as bonkers as sticking with a formation and team that clearly isn’t working.

 

[Mercedes]

Having thought through this carefully and sombrely, this is how I see it:

1. He will not resign. Doing so will be taking responsibility for this mess making it harder to take a new job , whilst losing the rest of his contract which he will need for his family in these tough economic times and make him look like a pathetic coward quitter. Completely understandable that he doesn't resign, even though if he had done an Ian Holloway (resigned at Crystal Palace) earlier we might have had a better chance.

2. He will not get sacked. The Prince has said so and there is no reason not to believe him. He will understandably believe that there is no one else out there who could get us out of the Championship. The only one I can think of as an alternative would be Slavan Bilic and there are no guarantees of success there.

It is difficult, believe me, to come to terms with relegation and international sporting humiliation which we may have to put up with for a hundred years (Lucky Loughborough!), though points 1 and 2 will not change even if we go down with less than 10 points.

This reminds me of the film 'The Day After Tomorrow' where the storm is about to hit. Had something been done before then the disaster might have been mitigated or even averted, but it's too late now for us to reach 12 points let alone battle to survive regardless of who is in charge. So all we can do is bunker down and ride out these torturous few months and hope come the summer we can move on and recover.

This is because the team that Wilder has assembled is actually so atrocious nothing can be done now. He's managed us so badly since lockdown that he's made us unsalvageable for the PL. (If he had done his job a bit better to make us salvageable for someone else I'd want him gone asap)

He has failed, in summary:

Recruitment: Signing Forest rejects and relying on them. Huge wastes on unproven PL talent and refusing to look beyond Dover for players.
Formation: Reluctance to change an out of date system
Coaching: Keeping it stale with no coaches who have Premier League experience.

It is absolutely fair enough that he has criticism (though abuse is not acceptable) and to those who want Wilder to stay it is perfectly reasonable to think, even if you don't agree, that Wilder's time is up at SUFC.

It's very sad to come to terms with

What Chris Wilder has done for our club is behold belief
If and it looks like the inevitable relegation he has to be given the opportunity to bring us back up
But Chris and I'm like a stuck record his recruitment team is wrong he has to get people in who are willing to put the hard yards in and go and have a look people who will challenge him it's the only industry where you get people having an opinion and an input at the top level regarding players coming in who cannot do and have not done it that is madness

 

[FMBlade1]

What Chris Wilder has done for our club is behold belief
If and it looks like the inevitable relegation he has to be given the opportunity to bring us back up
But Chris and I'm like a stuck record his recruitment team is wrong he has to get people in who are willing to put the hard yards in and go and have a look people who will challenge him it's the only industry where you get people having an opinion and an input at the top level regarding players coming in who cannot do and have not done it that is madness

Completely agree:

We need a new coach | S24SU Forum | Sheffield United Community

'They also will be able to offer something different and perhaps fresh ideas to our set up. And yes it would be good if they could challenge Wilder on occasion.'

 

[Greenblades]

My issue with the recruitment is what we aimed at.( granted we only know what we are told)

We went for Cash, Watkins, Brewster and Ramsdale as the big ones.

We got 2 from 4 and Villa also wanted Ramsdale so we must have been competitive on that one. The buy back clause was the only reason others backed off Brewster not salary I believe.

However non of these are the real answer. Our midfield is woeful. Surely Berge was not the only player we needed?

Chris and money at this level for me are a dangerous recipe.

We need 2 - 3 new midfield players or next season will be poor as well.

so the question is with over £100m spent would you give him more money.

My heart says yes but my head says it’s time to say thanks and move on.

 

[FMBlade1]

My issue with the recruitment is what we aimed at.( granted we only know what we are told)

We went for Cash, Watkins, Brewster and Ramsdale as the big ones.

We got 2 from 4 and Villa also wanted Ramsdale so we must have been competitive on that one. The buy back clause was the only reason others backed off Brewster not salary I believe.

However non of these are the real answer. Our midfield is woeful. Surely Berge was not the only player we needed?

Chris and money at this level for me are a dangerous recipe.

We need 2 - 3 new midfield players or next season will be poor as well.

so the question is with over £100m spent would you give him more money.

My heart says yes but my head says it’s time to say thanks and move on.

He won't get much money in the championship and has shown himself to be good with transfers in the Football League.

If we go up to the PL for 2022-2023 then that's a nice problem to have and yes he'll need to do much better

 

[FMBlade1]

You thought carefully and sombrely, and you’ve got your crayons out and assembled a piece of work that is inaccurate, doesn’t look at the bigger picture of Wilder has achieved during his 4 and a half years at the club, doesn’t take in to account any other circumstances that has had a bearing on this season and is tantamount to a character assassination of the best manager this club has had in 25 years.

1. Which part is inaccurate in the OP?
2. Where did I not look at the bigger picture? I said that based on before most likely to be best for us in FL
3. Everyone has had tough circumstances
4. Criticism is not character assassination. I've never been abusive towards him.
5. So what that he was better than Weir Clough etc?

 

[stringer]

You’re making a very basic argument here. I think some of us are arguing for flexibility and adaptability. To change and tinker with a team that’s doing well is equally as bonkers as sticking with a formation and team that clearly isn’t working.

It’s a basic game that’s over-complicated by many. The point is that many of the things being held up as issues this year, actually helped the club to their best finish in decades a few months ago. So maybe the reasons lay elsewhere?

 

[Deleted member 23679]

1. Which part is inaccurate in the OP?
2. Where did I not look at the bigger picture? I said that based on before most likely to be best for us in FL
3. Everyone has had tough circumstances
4. Criticism is not character assassination. I've never been abusive towards him.
5. So what that he was better than Weir Clough etc?

1. You said he wouldn't resign because he doesn't want to look like a coward. He won't resign because when we do go back down he wants to be the man to take us back up
2. You didn't mention that we had been through a global pandemic that has caused the club to lose a lot of money, and had a knock on effect on the players who look like they need a decent break which they didn't get in the summer
3. Thats true, but as the club with the smallest squad and one of the lowest incomes, it is going to hit us harder than 15 other clubs in the PL
4. Accusing him of not resigning because he doesn't want to look like a coward and needs the contract is a character assisination
5. He is far and away better than any other manager we have had for the last 25 years. One bad season doesn't change that.

 

[FMBlade1]

1. You said he wouldn't resign because he doesn't want to look like a coward. He won't resign because when we do go back down he wants to be the man to take us back up
2. You didn't mention that we had been through a global pandemic that has caused the club to lose a lot of money, and had a knock on effect on the players who look like they need a decent break which they didn't get in the summer
3. Thats true, but as the club with the smallest squad and one of the lowest incomes, it is going to hit us harder than 15 other clubs in the PL
4. Accusing him of not resigning because he doesn't want to look like a coward and needs the contract is a character assisination
5. He is far and away better than any other manager we have had for the last 25 years. One bad season doesn't change that.

1. It was amongst other reasons I listed, and I don't think he does want to look like a coward ?
2. I have mentioned this before on another thread, saying how our fitness fell to pieces more than other teams.
3. Yes, but there are 5 other clubs as you say in similar circumstances and we are no-where near them and are sadly doing appallingly.
4. As I said, those reasons are valid and understandable and there are other reasons also
5. True, completely agree, never said otherwise?

 

[Badger Blade]

As far as recruitment goes, the difference between League one and the Championship Vs Championship and Premier League is far smaller. We signed from lower leagues mainly because we had to but with Wilder being knowledgeable about those levels of football, he knew exactly who was playing beneath themselves and picked them up for next to nothing.

The biggest area of weakness is his signing of quality attacking players. Billy Sharp was already here and besides McGoldrick and Clarke in League One/first Championship season, who have we signed who plays any further forward than Fleck who has put the ball in the net regularly?

Washington, Hogan, Madine, Wilson, Hanson, Donaldson, McBurnie, Mousset, Brewster all with barely 20 goals between them.

 

[Webding]

No, we signed from the lower leagues because that’s all we can afford. Wilder went after a number of players who are now performing pretty well in other Premier League teams; they didn’t come here because we couldn’t offer the wages they wanted and are now getting elsewhere.

Yes, he’s spunked a lot of money, but all on unproven gambles from ‘lesser’ leagues, because that’s all he can get. Most of it was understandable too - Ramsdale is a fair enough signing for what he cost in real terms, Berge is the greatest talent in the world according to the stats brigade, and the striker situation is a weird one. They cost a premium anyway, but I’m not sure many are cut out for the system we play. I’d say this is the only area where he has panicked, but given the importance (we had no options in a key position) and availability, even this is slightly understandable.

I admit there’s still a huge question mark over his recruitment, but that alone is no reason to get rid, and surely he has til at least this time next year to reaffirm the faith we (should) have in him?

 

[Danny Blade]

No, we signed from the lower leagues because that’s all we can afford. Wilder went after a number of players who are now performing pretty well in other Premier League teams; they didn’t come here because we couldn’t offer the wages they wanted and are now getting elsewhere.

Yes, he’s spunked a lot of money, but all on unproven gambles from ‘lesser’ leagues, because that’s all he can get. Most of it was understandable too - Ramsdale is a fair enough signing for what he cost in real terms, Berge is the greatest talent in the world according to the stats brigade, and the striker situation is a weird one. They cost a premium anyway, but I’m not sure many are cut out for the system we play. I’d say this is the only area where he has panicked, but given the importance (we had no options in a key position) and availability, even this is slightly understandable.

I admit there’s still a huge question mark over his recruitment, but that alone is no reason to get rid, and surely he has til at least this time next year to reaffirm the faith we (should) have in him?

I think what you've said is the horrible truth - but that is the predicament we're in.

As a club we're at the stage of trying to establish ourselves at this level. We stayed up comfortably in season one, but that is obviously not happening now in season two. West Brom are a similar size club to what we are but have generally been a yo-yo club for donkeys years, that's how hard it can be unfortunately especially as both clubs aren't that particularly wealthy.

But for me if Wilder is to remain manager this season and in the coming year or two, I want him to take responsibility and learn from the horrid experience we are going through at the moment as fully as possible.

If PA can't or won't either sell us on to a much wealthier owner or find another party to come in and help invest then as a club we have to try and be on the cutting edge at forming scouting networks in the overseas market, excellent at negotiating transfers, digital marketing on social media and basically everything else.

Even if it means investing to make all this happen by bringing onboard the personnel who are among the best in their fields. This would have to be if/when we return to this level as I can't see us spending that type of money now that we're heading back to the Championship.

 

[SHOREHAMST.com]

I’m sure CW has never been through as big a learning curve as what he is right now. It will shape him and improve him and make him an even better manager than he was 12 months ago.

That said, losing every week will bring untold pressure and have consequences out of his control. Players will be consciously thinking other players are at fault, stuff like that. The longer it goes on the more the problems add up. It’s a horrible situation we’re in.

I’ve never wanted relegation to happen so much so that we can fast forward to next season.