Clough poll - End of 15/16 season

[Barney]

Mmmm, having had it pointed out that two Blades' forums are in agreement, that's not enough. You then throw a figure of 18000 into the mix as if there's an underlying reason supporting this? Could you enlighten me as to what this reason is, or what point you were struggling to make?

Not trying to make any point? Just to clarify my stance on clough is that i believe he should be here for next season, but not if we don't get promotion.
With the 18,000, just trying to say that nobody knows how these fans feel, but can't be that bad given theres been no protests. So, i am largely neutral towards clough at this moment.

 

[itsinyerblood]

Not trying to make any point? Just to clarify my stance on clough is that i believe he should be here for next season, but not if we don't get promotion.
With the 18,000, just trying to say that nobody knows how these fans feel, but can't be that bad given theres been no protests. So, i am largely neutral towards clough at this moment.

Which is how I imagine many Blades feel. Can't blame them for that. At the end of the season I felt underwhelmed by everything that went on, but my passion for the Blades didn't turn sour, unpleasant, and as intent on removing him as a rabid pack of wolves.

Yes, we could have done better. And a realistic view of today's game should tell all of us that next season is the moment when Clough needs to deliver by way of securing promotion. I really hope NC manages to do what we appointed him to do. I dare say that there would be certain posters so lost for words that their own damning comments about Clough will have left them little room to wriggle, so expect stubbornness on a scale rarely before seen on this forum. No one can predict what will happen next season, but like everyone of us, I'm looking forward to the first game. I hope your neutrality changes to something far more positive mate.

 

[Rodley]

I just want to see a home game when we have more than 2 shots, have a decent 1st half and press the opposition. I don't want to see 4-5-1 trying to hold out for a win from the 60th min, I want to see us go out, dominate and win convincingly.

 

[Barney]

Which is how I imagine many Blades feel. Can't blame them for that. At the end of the season I felt underwhelmed by everything that went on, but my passion for the Blades didn't turn sour, unpleasant, and as intent on removing him as a rabid pack of wolves.

Yes, we could have done better. And a realistic view of today's game should tell all of us that next season is the moment when Clough needs to deliver by way of securing promotion. I really hope NC manages to do what we appointed him to do. I dare say that there would be certain posters so lost for words that their own damning comments about Clough will have left them little room to wriggle, so expect stubbornness on a scale rarely before seen on this forum. No one can predict what will happen next season, but like everyone of us, I'm looking forward to the first game. I hope your neutrality changes to something far more positive mate.

Fair post, agree with all of that and i hope it becomes more positive as well, and hope at last we can get out of this horrible league. But you can probably understand many blades fans frustrations, even if they are the minority. Just as a matter of interest, if worst comes to worst next season, and we didn't get promotion, would you change your view on Clough?

 

[Pinchy]

I must be a SAD pro Clough then. Happy , Satisfied , Content , No not at all . Just very bemused .

Next season , is the season when the honeymoon is over .

Yes i will be very Sad if we don't make it season , or the season after that . Perhaps we are all deluded and actually have found our level - mediocrity .

No doubt Clough will sort it - hope he does .

UTB

The final sentence was not directed at you, nor did I have you in mind! Sometimes, in responding to an individual, one is tempted to make points of general application.

 

[Pinchy]

I just want to see a home game when we have more than 2 shots, have a decent 1st half and press the opposition. I don't want to see 4-5-1 trying to hold out for a win from the 60th min, I want to see us go out, dominate and win convincingly.

Agree entirely. Pretty sure that's not all down to NC though. These sorts of problems have occurred under a number of managers. The players are let off too lightly as well. Professionals should be able to think and adapt during a 95 minute game. There is plenty of evidence of Clough urging the team forward and not getting much response.

 

[Rodley]

Agree entirely. Pretty sure that's not all down to NC though. These sorts of problems have occurred under a number of managers. The players are let off too lightly as well. Professionals should be able to think and adapt during a 95 minute game. There is plenty of evidence of Clough urging the team forward and not getting much response.

I disagree, to a degree at least. The team selections haven't lent themselves to the preferred formation and have led to stale and static performances. Substitutions have been too late and too conservative.

Good luck to NC next year though. Hope he does it.

 

[Pinchy]

Not trying to make any point? Just to clarify my stance on clough is that i believe he should be here for next season, but not if we don't get promotion.
With the 18,000, just trying to say that nobody knows how these fans feel, but can't be that bad given theres been no protests. So, i am largely neutral towards clough at this moment.

You make your point well. NC is no fool. He will know what's expected next season and the consequences if he doesn't achieve it.

The Anti-Clough Agenda Group, though, hugely overstate their case. They wilfully refuse to believe they are not in an overwhelming majority (in one case actually saying pro-Clough views are pointless because he doesn't agree with them!). They fail to recognise the progress NC has made (I accept it stuttered last season) or to acknowledge the fairly uncontentious proposition that it takes time to build a club (he's had ONE full season) and worst of all, contrive disingenuous and absurd opportunities to take a cheap shot at the manager.

I suggest that it is becoming counter-productive now and fair-minded Blades would appreciate a period of calm.

 

[itsinyerblood]

Fair post, agree with all of that and i hope it becomes more positive as well, and hope at last we can get out of this horrible league. But you can probably understand many blades fans frustrations, even if they are the minority. Just as a matter of interest, if worst comes to worst next season, and we didn't get promotion, would you change your view on Clough?

The problem is, a question like that supposes so much. Hypothetically, if Clough is plagued by injuries and key players are unavailable, would I hold him responsible for something he shouldn't receive flak for? Of course not, but I can imagine certain posters would see it as an opportunity to declare open war on Clough, simply because their blood-lust wasn't sated at the end of last season.

So what I'm saying is that predicting, especially on something as fundamental as sacking a man, shouldn't be left to something as pointless as pre-season speculation, without having evidence and information to offer an informed overview.

 

[Pinchy]

I disagree, to a degree at least. The team selections haven't lent themselves to the preferred formation and have led to stale and static performances. Substitutions have been too late and too conservative.

Good luck to NC next year though. Hope he does it.

I agree entirely with you; you disagree with me! That's a new one, even in weird and wonderful S2

Seriously it's just emphasis. All I was saying is that it's not ALL down to the manager. The other factors are valid I suggest? I'm certainly not saying that NC covered himself with glory last season. That would be absurd. Still, such considerations don't deter those at the other end of the argument, so why not?....

 

[Patrick Suffaux]

I've gone on record as saying he deserves another season and I stand by that. That season must however deliver promotion in my view. If it doesn't then it will absolutely be time for a change.

 

[bladeinspaceandtime]

How on earth does your personal view make it pointless??

You have no idea why individuals voted as they did. In the only case I can speak definitively of, my own, you are wholly and completely wrong.

Dear.....oh dear......or dear.....it just gets dafter and dafter.

Carry on Up the Agenda.

You must be very insecure to come out with all the myopic bullshit you do. As I said, I found it pointless, you didn't. Get over it.

 

[Pinchy]

You must be very insecure to come out with all the myopic bullshit you do. As I said, I found it pointless, you didn't. Get over it.

No you didn't. You said it WAS pointless and spouted bollocks about what other misguided people must have been thinking. You added (in my view) but that's entirely superfluous. It's a pretty good bet that when someone proffers a view, it's their own! In short, it was pointless because it didn't match your own views. That's what you said; that's what you meant. Would it have been pointless had it been bang on the Agenda?

I'm very secure indeed, thank you. That's why my jobs on here are to expose uncomfortable truths, challenge knee-jerk absurdities and confront hypocrites.

The general election result was (in my view) pointless.

 

[Silent Blade]

Fair post, agree with all of that and i hope it becomes more positive as well, and hope at last we can get out of this horrible league. But you can probably understand many blades fans frustrations, even if they are the minority. Just as a matter of interest, if worst comes to worst next season, and we didn't get promotion, would you change your view on Clough?

If we dont get promotion then the club will not offer Clough a new contract. His contract expries in 2016 so this thread is pointless

 

[Woodwardfan]

If we dont get promotion then the club will not offer Clough a new contract. His contract expries in 2016 so this thread is pointless

I think he would resign well before the end of the season. He's a sensitive and proud man.

Clough has more to lose than anybody, job-wise and reputation-wise. In football generally Clough has respect for the jobs he did at Derby and Burton, with allowance made for the finances available to him at Derby in particular.

If he fails with us at this level with the funds he has had at his disposal, then his reputation and future employment prospects will be lessened. I suspect he would only get a job in lower divisions; plenty of clubs would still be respectful of his family name and still regard him as a "safe pair of hands"; he'd be in the Adams, Wilson category I suppose.

Having watched him and read a bit about his past career, in particular his comments about his father's life and career and his own family values, do you know, I'm not so sure he'd be so disappointed with his lot. I certainly believe he puts his family first, for example part of his explanation for staying with Burton so long was the opportunity to have his family anchored in to their home town and not disturbed by moves away.

As a bloke who moved his family a fair bit for career opportunities, his comments had some resonance with me. I put the hours in as well and at times was working away from home . I don't think Clough would do that. Though his kids will have grown up by now i still guess that work has it's place in his life and is less important than his home life. He'll not be short of a bob or two either.

 

[Lord Bos of Eckington.]

I disagree, to a degree at least. The team selections haven't lent themselves to the preferred formation and have led to stale and static performances. Substitutions have been too late and too conservative.

Good luck to NC next year though. Hope he does it.

What we have to overcome ( and it doesn't matter how much game preparation you do ) , is the factor of the mediocre league 1 teams coming to BDTBL , and individual players raising there game by a big percentage . Average , non descript opposition players become - Why don't we buy him , he's having a right game .

This has happened on many occasion since we have been in league 1 , especially noted last season. Opposing teams and managers do see it as a" big game : , due to the facilities , which will be apparent as soon as they pull up outside the ground on the team bus.

Ok , history tells us as a team , we are championship class , but we are in league 1 , with premiership facilities . This can help but also be a hinderance .

It is a situation we have to overcome , and the new pitch , if like a bowling green , will be another factor to overcome. Its a disadvantage , we have to turn into a advantage , with the crowd playing a part in being hostile to the opposition , not the blades players on the pitch .

Bit of a catch twenty two scenario , as last season some of the performances were dire , and lacking ideas , not helped with the opposition playing out of there skin , and looking world beaters , for this league level .

I have always said there is one team only , that can beat the blades in this league , - and thats the blades.

This improvement , will bag a load of points at home , which will help the league position and fans watching.

Its the old nutshell of player mentality . Opposition players . Shit we are at Yeovil on saturday , great / fantastic , we are at SUFC on Tuesday , brilliant ground and facilities . Hot water even comes out of the showers , at high pressure , cant wait to go to the lane , but dreading theYeovil game.

UTB

 

[Lord Bos of Eckington.]

I think he would resign well before the end of the season. He's a sensitive and proud man.

Clough has more to lose than anybody, job-wise and reputation-wise. In football generally Clough has respect for the jobs he did at Derby and Burton, with allowance made for the finances available to him at Derby in particular.

If he fails with us at this level with the funds he has had at his disposal, then his reputation and future employment prospects will be lessened. I suspect he would only get a job in lower divisions; plenty of clubs would still be respectful of his family name and still regard him as a "safe pair of hands"; he'd be in the Adams, Wilson category I suppose.

Having watched him and read a bit about his past career, in particular his comments about his father's life and career and his own family values, do you know, I'm not so sure he'd be so disappointed with his lot. I certainly believe he puts his family first, for example part of his explanation for staying with Burton so long was the opportunity to have his family anchored in to their home town and not disturbed by moves away.

As a bloke who moved his family a fair bit for career opportunities, his comments had some resonance with me. I put the hours in as well and at times was working away from home . I don't think Clough would do that. Though his kids will have grown up by now i still guess that work has it's place in his life and is less important than his home life. He'll not be short of a bob or two either.

Both the Clough brothers appear to be very orientated , as family men , which is a credit to both of them . Thats why when we got Clough as manager , it finally seemed like a marriage made in heaven , as we take pride in being known as a family club . A phrase Jim Phipps has used on many occasion.

Clough is a very proud man , and if SUFC do not reach there goal of promotion next season , i think he will resign , even on principle .

Its time , i think we all reflect on what we want out of life , and what is important . To the vast majority of us , our lives resolve around family , and SUFC. With this in mind , we should give the guy some slack , get off his back , and give him support , not only to help us , but also to help him, to achieve promotion .

Clough gives everything to SUFC and home life. Like a lot of us.

Being hostile , to one of our own ( which he is ) , is counterproductive , and quite frankly , we finish getting what we deserve - nothing.

UTB

 

[Davie Blade]

I suspect many who ticked the "Clough in" box think that he will "learn from his mistakes"

You have no idea why individuals voted

Many are dissatisfied and bemused but there is no groundswell amongst non-Internet; non-football heaven fans for NC's head. Most want him to carry on

The Anti-Clough Agenda Group, though, hugely overstate their case. They wilfully refuse to believe they are not in an overwhelming majority

I agree entirely with you; you disagree with me! That's a new one, even in weird and wonderful S2

Dear.....oh dear......or dear.....it just gets dafter and dafter.

It's a fair cop

 

[HoodedClaw]

So if Clough achieves promotion you'd be happy to get rid of Clough? Wouldn't that be a case of taking us forward? Or does a decision of such absurd fundamentalism not concern itself with what's clearly a good thing for the club?

Yes I would.

IMO the only thing good for the club is getting to the PL, as this is the aim of the Prince when he came on board, not doing so I fear the prince will get bored and the funding will dry up, then what happens?
I've seen nothing in Clough to demonstrate that he is capable of delivering this, (we're already 12 months behind the plan and can you honestly say we've progressed/improved?)but if you have then please change my mind.

I can easily throw around hyperbole like you, but I feel it would be equally absurd to stick with someone who I don't feel can deliver what is required.

 

[HoodedClaw]

You jest?

Why?

Our goal is getting back to the PL I think, has he shown you something to demonstrate he is capable of this?

 

[Kazarre13]

OUT!

 

[Pinchy]

Why?

Our goal is getting back to the PL I think, has he shown you something to demonstrate he is capable of this?

Absolutely. Have you not noticed our results against Championship and Premiership clubs? We routinely out-think and outplay them. Even his daftest detractors usually acknowledge the undeniable.

 

[itsinyerblood]

Yes I would.

IMO the only thing good for the club is getting to the PL, as this is the aim of the Prince when he came on board, not doing so I fear the prince will get bored and the funding will dry up, then what happens?
I've seen nothing in Clough to demonstrate that he is capable of delivering this, (we're already 12 months behind the plan and can you honestly say we've progressed/improved?)but if you have then please change my mind.

I can easily throw around hyperbole like you, but I feel it would be equally absurd to stick with someone who I don't feel can deliver what is required.

So, just to ensure I've not misunderstood.....if Clough delivers promotion at the end of season 2015/16 you remain adamant and unmoveable? Regardless of achieving promotion? Intransigent seems to be your default position, even when you are given sound reasons for thinking otherwise. Any other club and it's supporters would be ecstatic if a manager delivered promotion, but not you. It has to be your idealised manager, suave, nonchalant, never puts a foot wrong, always manages to make decisions that no one will question, in effect, someone who is all things to all people....jeez Hooded, even Mandela never managed to achieve that last part of the equation, and he was pretty remarkable!

Re. The Prince, even with his best intentions, I suspect, under advisement from his employees on the board, he'll now appreciate that his initial declarations may have been a tad naive. It may well take longer to achieve entry to the Premiership, but as long as The Prince, and the board, realise that to build effectively it will take longer than they'd anticipated, then most of us should interpret that as progress...or is that not the case?

 

[HoodedClaw]

Absolutely. Have you not noticed our results against Championship and Premiership clubs? We routinely out-think and outplay them. Even his daftest detractors usually acknowledge the undeniable.

Indeed he has, in one off cup matches, as I've said he's done nothing to convince me he's the man to take us to our ultimate goal.

If he's going to struggle in league one over a season why do you feel he will have more success in the higher leagues?

I'm up for my mind being changed, but saying to me that he's done it in cup matches so it will work in higher leagues is a flawed argument.

 

[HoodedClaw]

So, just to ensure I've not misunderstood.....if Clough delivers promotion at the end of season 2015/16 you remain adamant and unmoveable? Regardless of achieving promotion? Intransigent seems to be your default position, even when you are given sound reasons for thinking otherwise. Any other club and it's supporters would be ecstatic if a manager delivered promotion, but not you. It has to be your idealised manager, suave, nonchalant, never puts a foot wrong, always manages to make decisions that no one will question, in effect, someone who is all things to all people....jeez Hooded, even Mandela never managed to achieve that last part of the equation, and he was pretty remarkable!

Re. The Prince, even with his best intentions, I suspect, under advisement from his employees on the board, he'll now appreciate that his initial declarations may have been a tad naive. It may well take longer to achieve entry to the Premiership, but as long as The Prince, and the board, realise that to build effectively it will take longer than they'd anticipated, then most of us should interpret that as progress...or is that not the case?

Not at all, as I put in my post "... please change my mind", but getting a promotion doesn't automatically mean to me that he is capable of delivering our ultimate end goal, even if the Prince gives him an extended timescale.

Again as I asked in my post "please change my mind" , what "sound reasons" have you given me?

I never said I wouldn't be ecstatic if he delivered promotion, if you read my post I say he's demonstrated nothing to me that he is capable of delivering our ultimate goal. You seem to be trying to make arguments with assumptions and things I've not written.

WTF are you on about "It has to be my idealised manager, suave..." lost me with this as I mentioned nothing about any other managers???

I repeat for the hard of reading Clough has done nothing to demonstrate to me he is capable of delivering our ultimate aim.

Re the Prince, I'm sure he does realise it may well take longer than what was initially said. However I would imagine that he thought we would be doing it from the championship rather than still in league one given the money spent this season. Personally I don't think think finishing 2 places higher, accumulating 4 more points and winning one more game, in a weaker league than last season, is a sign of progress. Do you honestly feel we've progressed?

 

[itsinyerblood]

Not at all, as I put in my post "... please change my mind", but getting a promotion doesn't automatically mean to me that he is capable of delivering our ultimate end goal, even if the Prince gives him an extended timescale.

Again as I asked in my post "please change my mind" , what "sound reasons" have you given me?

I never said I wouldn't be ecstatic if he delivered promotion, if you read my post I say he's demonstrated nothing to me that he is capable of delivering our ultimate goal. You seem to be trying to make arguments with assumptions and things I've not written.

WTF are you on about "It has to be my idealised manager, suave..." lost me with this as I mentioned nothing about any other managers???

I repeat for the hard of reading Clough has done nothing to demonstrate to me he is capable of delivering our ultimate aim.

Re the Prince, I'm sure he does realise it may well take longer than what was initially said. However I would imagine that he thought we would be doing it from the championship rather than still in league one given the money spent this season. Personally I don't think think finishing 2 places higher, accumulating 4 more points and winning one more game, in a weaker league than last season, is a sign of progress. Do you honestly feel we've progressed?

By writing "...please change my mind" it's as if you present an absolute - no room for me to choose how I decide to reply, the only room you present me with is to answer on your terms. Personally I don't care whether you're persuaded or not. Like many posters on here the discussions often boil down to demands rather than something more amenable.

You're also employing a double negative - promotion isn't enough where Clough is concerned, and should that happen it's still not enough. From a managerial point of view that amounts to disincentivising on a grand scale. Clearly you believe in offering someone little scope to do their job to the best of their abilities, a curious take on what should be regarded as the main reason for being in the job. I guess I'll just have to accept that no matter what Clough does, your mind is made up and you refuse to see the world differently, as I said, intransigent.

As for your final set of questions, as with my first paragraph, how you or I interpret moving forward is obviously at odds. There's no doubt Clough made mistakes last season. In previous posts I've written exactly the same, so I've no doubt Clough is aware of ensuring an improved performance next season. If he isn't then whatever consequences follow are Clough's to deal with. What I do know is that amidst poor performances we still managed to fight for a play-off place up until the last moment. Considering your discontent I see what I've described as a sign to be hopeful, especially if Clough manages to learn from everything that happened last season.

At the beginning of Clough's appointment there was a general consensus for managerial stability, with many posters emphasising that even with a few steps back we should still allow the incumbent to do their job without cutting them off at the knees. I've still to see an post where it's explained how a manager is meant to do their job if they're sacked within 18 months, someone else comes in, and the same weary merry-go-round begins again? So is 18 months the timescale we allow any manager? No mistakes in that time, no errors, just a faultless year and a half in which we achieve.......well that's where the managerial brick wall appears I'm afraid.

 

[HillmortonBlade]

Why?

Our goal is getting back to the PL I think, has he shown you something to demonstrate he is capable of this?

I am not disagreeing with you HC, but i think the idea that no matter how the season goes you would have NC out is a bit over the top. So, if we walk the division and the first team are on holiday in April, he would have to go?

I am not saying that I believe this will be the case, and I think the question marks are above the manager in a very big way given the farce of the last match. But a little less hyperbole would greatly strengthen your argument.

And yes, I believe our goal should be to return to the PL, though I am not sure how realistic that is in the short/medium term. And no, he has not demonstrated he is capable of this. But I think he might be capable of getting us to the Championship and hopefully maintaining our position there so the foundations are in place for the challenge to come not necessarily by him. But if he gets us promoted next season, he virtually guarantees himself that opportunity. Though that evidence diminishing...

 

[Flatulent_Bob]

Will we just keep getting more and more polls until there is one where the majority state they want Clough out?

 

[Sothall_Blade]

I think he would resign well before the end of the season. He's a sensitive and proud man.

Clough has more to lose than anybody, job-wise and reputation-wise. In football generally Clough has respect for the jobs he did at Derby and Burton, with allowance made for the finances available to him at Derby in particular.

If he fails with us at this level with the funds he has had at his disposal, then his reputation and future employment prospects will be lessened. I suspect he would only get a job in lower divisions; plenty of clubs would still be respectful of his family name and still regard him as a "safe pair of hands"; he'd be in the Adams, Wilson category I suppose.

Having watched him and read a bit about his past career, in particular his comments about his father's life and career and his own family values, do you know, I'm not so sure he'd be so disappointed with his lot. I certainly believe he puts his family first, for example part of his explanation for staying with Burton so long was the opportunity to have his family anchored in to their home town and not disturbed by moves away.

As a bloke who moved his family a fair bit for career opportunities, his comments had some resonance with me. I put the hours in as well and at times was working away from home . I don't think Clough would do that. Though his kids will have grown up by now i still guess that work has it's place in his life and is less important than his home life. He'll not be short of a bob or two either.

Fair comments but barring a total disaster next season, I don't think his reputation will be as severely damaged as you suggest.
I think that Chairmen would look at his record with us and see a manager with a 49% win record.
Taking over when we were 23rd in the League and finishing 7th and 5th (so far).
A manager who took a 3rd tier team to two Cup Semi Finals and a 5th Round (so far) beating 6 teams from higher leagues in the process.
Who funded all or at very least most of his transfer kitty himself with the sale of Maguire, increased attendances, play-off matches and cup revenue.
Who balanced the wage bill and operated within the FFP rules by offloading high wage earners and many other players.
I don't think he would struggle to get another job if he left us at this point. It remains to be seen what he will achieve next season.

 

[Blade56]

Not another poll

Dunno, we could do with a few foreign players