Clegg or Kenny??

[Mad Mick]

cancelled post

 

[Mad Mick]

It really does take two to tango. A dodgy loan needs a borrower just as much as it needs a lender.

On the face of it m8, that statement would seem to be right. But I'm afraid in most cases's it's not. Most borrowers don't know the rules and rely on the banks etc to properly advise them. For instance last night I was talking to an old lady who had been sold a cash ISA of £5,100 in March 2010. The bank then sold her a stocks and shares ISA in the same month for £10,200. When her daughter questioned this with the adviser at the bank he said this was correct. I'm sure you know that the maximum you can place in an ISA per tax year is £10,200. So why did the banking adviser do this? Greed and targets!!!
How many more customers are being sold products against HMRC rules? Bloody disgrace. The banks are a shambles.
And it's us that pays the consequences.

 

[lenners]

It's a tricky one but I think overall it has to be Clegg.
The first of many likely stupid decisions by the unholy alliance. Forgemasters, new technology, a niche industry the UK wants to make a mark in, it's a loan... so the numpties, including Tory boy Clegg, decided it's important to knock it back.
Never, ever trust anyone who'd sell his soul to get in bed with them. This is what you get.

 

[Mad Mick]

How many vulnerable people were targeted by the banks or misadvised?
Many m8 I can assure you.
There is always a case for buyer beware of course, but many customers don't even begin to understand finance.

 

[JJ Sefton]

On the face of it m8, that statement would seem to be right. But I'm afraid in most cases's it's not. Most borrowers don't know the rules and rely on the banks etc to properly advise them. For instance last night I was talking to an old lady who had been sold a cash ISA of £5,100 in March 2010. The bank then sold her a stocks and shares ISA in the same month for £10,200. When her daughter questioned this with the adviser at the bank he said this was correct. I'm sure you know that the maximum you can place in an ISA per tax year is £10,200. So why did the banking adviser do this? Greed and targets!!!
How many more customers are being sold products against HMRC rules? Bloody disgrace. The banks are a shambles.
And it's us that pays the consequences.

Im sorry, but you cant put the boom in consumer debt down to evil bankers tricking little old ladies, it topped out at £1.4 trillion! Spending on holidays doubled, spending on entertainment went up by 76% and the number of credit cards in circulation rose from 36 to 71 million.

 

[lenners]

Because civil servants are primarily funded by tax raised by the private sector. The private sector has to fund pensions, job security and now higher salaries for the public sector. None of these privileges are lavished on themselves, yet they have to provide it for others. The private sector has been hit hard, the public sector has bloated beyond belief. This situation can't go on, it's simply not fair - and my wife is currently a beneficiary of a gold plated, public sector pension - but that doesn't alter the unfairness of it all.

UTB

Bit of a simplistic argument. People working in the public sector, staffing our schools, our hospitals, emptying the bins (if they've not been hived off) are among the people who buy houses, cars, food, clothes, luxury goods etc, etc which tends to make some folk in the private sector very rich individuals. I do believe they also pay taxes.

 

[JJ Sefton]

Forgemasters, new technology, a niche industry the UK wants to make a mark in, it's a loan...

Shouldnt have any difficulty attracting private capital then.

 

[JJ Sefton]

Bit of a simplistic argument. People working in the public sector, staffing our schools, our hospitals, emptying the bins (if they've not been hived off) are among the people who buy houses, cars, food, clothes, luxury goods etc, etc which tends to make some folk in the private sector very rich individuals. I do believe they also pay taxes.

Well theres simplicity...We must tax to be able to support a massive public sector so that they can, er, pay tax. The source of wealth in a country and of economic growth is rising productivity. The public sector isnt productive. To grow it beyond a certain level, as we have, drags the economy down.

 

[Mad Mick]

Im sorry, but you cant put the boom in consumer debt down to evil bankers tricking little old ladies, it topped out at £1.4 trillion! Spending on holidays doubled, spending on entertainment went up by 76% and the number of credit cards in circulation rose from 36 to 71 million.

The reason we are in the mess we are in is not down to spending on holidays either. It's down to banks lending money to clients to buy properties with dubious credit histories or dubious incomes. If you remember the shit first hit the fan in the USA. The debts had been parcelled up and sold on, trouble is no one could tell the bad debt from the good. Who devised those instruments? Well it was the banks of course. Like I've already mentioned there is a hint of buyer beware, but many people are gullible, especially if they are on low incomes and have poor credit scores. Now it doesn't take long to hit your billions if you include mortgages does it.?

 

[lenners]

Well theres simplicity...We must tax to be able to support a massive public sector so that they can, er, pay tax. The source of wealth in a country and of economic growth is rising productivity. The public sector isnt productive. To grow it beyond a certain level, as we have, drags the economy down.

No, I simply pointed out that people in the public sector do pay tax. And keeping people in jobs helps demand, helps growth, increases productivity and so on.
As for Forgemasters, I thought they'd already secured some private backing but needed a top up?
We were supposed to be looking to create cutting edge businesses but it'll now end up somewhere else, probably where a government does provide public backing.
The private sector definitely does not always know best and it'll be a long time before we'll be convinced otherwise after our friends, the bankers, outright stupidity.

 

[Deleted member 2102]

Bit of a simplistic argument. People working in the public sector, staffing our schools, our hospitals, emptying the bins (if they've not been hived off) are among the people who buy houses, cars, food, clothes, luxury goods etc, etc which tends to make some folk in the private sector very rich individuals. I do believe they also pay taxes.

Yep they are also less productive than those in the private sector. Infact the NHS manages to have negative labour productivity, now that takes some doing.

 

[BornOnShorehamStreet]

The banks didnt get us in this mess the Labour government did.

It didn't help that the Great British Public were stupid enough to accept offers from the banks that allowed them to borrow 125% against the values of the homes they were buying.

 

[Micalijo]

Shouldnt have any difficulty attracting private capital then.

As far as private investment in nuclear power, there has to be for me a certainty that government policy will support that industry. No way would HSBC for example loan £80m to FM without 100% certainty that the industry was entrenched in government policy. Investment in nuclear power has to be initiated by the government. Secondary loans from the private sector could follow but the initial wedge has to come from government for me.

 

[alcoblade]

Bit of a simplistic argument. People working in the public sector, staffing our schools, our hospitals, emptying the bins (if they've not been hived off) are among the people who buy houses, cars, food, clothes, luxury goods etc, etc which tends to make some folk in the private sector very rich individuals. I do believe they also pay taxes.

Which bit of my statement is simplistic? The money is initialy generated in the private sector. Without it, there'd be no way of paying for a public sector (who subsequently pay tax from private sector revenue).

Gold plated pensions, job security and higher wages - all paid for by the private sector, non of it lavished on the private sector. I'd like to hear a case where it was justified, but I know you wont be able to do it.

UTB

 

[lenners]

Which bit of my statement is simplistic? The money is initialy generated in the private sector. Without it, there'd be no way of paying for a public sector (who subsequently pay tax from private sector revenue).

Gold plated pensions, job security and higher wages - all paid for by the private sector, non of it lavished on the private sector. I'd like to hear a case where it was justified, but I know you wont be able to do it.

UTB

Public investment supports the private sector, stimulates demand, ensures cohesion in society, generally makes the world a better place and reminds everyone that existence is not solely predicated on greed and selfishness.
We're so selfless, we even saved the private banking system from itself. And we even do it despite the fact that the blessed private sector often finds ways to avoid paying tax while of course benefiting from all our public services at the same time.

 

[BornOnShorehamStreet]

Public investment supports the private sector, stimulates demand, ensures cohesion in society, generally makes the world a better place and reminds everyone that existence is not solely predicated on greed and selfishness.
We're so selfless, we even saved the private banking system from itself. And we even do it despite the fact that the blessed private sector often finds ways to avoid paying tax while of course benefiting from all our public services at the same time.

And where does that money come from, Len?

 

[Tickhillblade]

Blader, the CURRENT government is making these drastic cuts as a result of the policies of the LAST government, who were in power for 13 years, had unprecedented levels of tax revenues to hand yet left us with the largest deficit since the war. I would suggest responsibility for your Uncles predicament lies with the last government but if the project is as good as is suggested, private investment should be forthcoming. Which should have been the way Forgemasters should have gone in the first place, as a private company.

Don't forget Gordons golden rule, not to borrow more then 40% of GDP throughout an economic cycle.

Oh I almost forgot a cycle consists of both growth and contraction - someone should have told our worst chancellor that. He stole from pensioners, sold our gold at rock bottom prices ( telling the market beforehand so the traders could borrow the governments gold sell it and then buy it back at depressed levels ( short selling) and returning it back to the govt)

The mess we are in is down to one man - Gordon the incompetant.

 

[Jon Bon]

Which bit of my statement is simplistic? The money is initialy generated in the private sector. Without it, there'd be no way of paying for a public sector (who subsequently pay tax from private sector revenue).

Gold plated pensions, job security and higher wages - all paid for by the private sector, non of it lavished on the private sector. I'd like to hear a case where it was justified, but I know you wont be able to do it.

UTB

Where do people get this fucking stupid idea from that ALL public sector wages are higher than the private sector? If you want to have a pop at the departmental heads and CEO's then fair enough but don't tar all public sector workers with the same brush. Many earn far less than people doing comparative jobs in private enterprise, Just over 7 years ago I left the private sector, which I'd worked in for 15 years, to work in the public sector and took a 10-12k cut in salary to do so. Obviously money wasn't and isn't my driving force and certainly means far less to me than my happiness and state of well being. Having slowly worked my way up a few rungs, I'm still earning nowhere near what I was when I left the private sector and certainly way off what I would have been earning now if 1.) I'd stuck it out and 2.) If I'd still been alive. Having said that, I don't for one moment regret doing what I did and would do the same a hundred times out of a hundred if I had the chance to go back. My decision, my choice and I'm happy with it.

I certainly don't see anyone where I work in the public sector enjoying fully expensed, brand new company cars, regular £1500 monthly bonuses lavished around for doing not much, being taken out for slap up meals on the company on a regular basis and the like, all of which was common place to me before. I'm not saying that sort of thing or similar doesn't happen in the upper echelons of the civil service or NHS for example, but to say that public sector wages are higher per-Se is totally wrong.

 

[Mad Mick]

Good point m8. I think in the public sector wages are subject to market forces, where'as in the private sector that is not always the case. I wish I had a private sector pension for instance.

 

[alcoblade]

Good point m8. I think in the public sector wages are subject to market forces, where'as in the private sector that is not always the case. I wish I had a private sector pension for instance.

Surely you're mixing your "public" with your "private" there?

UTB

 

[alcoblade]

Where do people get this fucking stupid idea from that ALL public sector wages are higher than the private sector?

Did anyone state such a thing? Clearly ( or clealy not ) my point was talking about "averages" - as there's lots of evidence to suggest the historical norms, where lower public sector pay was the price for job security, have been reversed.

UTB

 

[JJ Sefton]

Like I've already mentioned there is a hint of buyer beware, but many people are gullible, especially if they are on low incomes and have poor credit scores.

Read that back to yourself.

 

[Mad Mick]

The definition of gullible is easily taken in or tricked.
The definition of hint is a barely perceptive amount.
Perhaps you envisaged different definitions, sorry if I confused you.
Just to be safe
Envisaged:To conceive an image or a picture of, especially as a future possibility.

 

[lenners]

And where does that money come from, Len?

Taxes. Which everyone in the public sector pays and which everyone in the public sector contributes to by buying goods from companies that make profits which are, in turn, taxed.
I remember Saint Vince telling us that the government needed to stop the likes of Tesco spiriting away their profits from tax but a bit like his pal Clegg I expect those principles to be long gone now.
I find the whole notion of a put upon private sector a bit disingenuous to say the least.

 

[Jon Bon]

Did anyone state such a thing? Clearly ( or clealy not ) my point was talking about "averages" - as there's lots of evidence to suggest the historical norms, where lower public sector pay was the price for job security, have been reversed.

Well, such sweeping statements always give that impression. Even talking about averages, you're still way off the mark if you think that the average public sector wage is higher the equivalent in the private sector.

 

[alcoblade]

The definition of gullible is easily taken in or tricked.
The definition of hint is a barely perceptive amount.
Perhaps you envisaged different definitions, sorry if I confused you.
Just to be safe
Envisaged:To conceive an image or a picture of, especially as a future possibility.

I'm sure you know what you mean!



UTB

 

[alcoblade]

Taxes. Which everyone in the public sector pays and which everyone in the public sector contributes to by buying goods from companies that make profits which are, in turn, taxed.
I remember Saint Vince telling us that the government needed to stop the likes of Tesco spiriting away their profits from tax but a bit like his pal Clegg I expect those principles to be long gone now.
I find the whole notion of a put upon private sector a bit disingenuous to say the least.

Same old Len with his inability to answer a straight question.

I wont ask you one, I'll just state the facts for you to digest. The tax paid by public sector workers is on wages paid for by private sector revenue.

It's not rocket science.....

UTB

 

[alcoblade]

Well, such sweeping statements always give that impression. Even talking about averages, you're still way off the mark if you think that the average public sector wage is higher the equivalent in the private sector.

A one for one comparison of several million people was beyond me - sorry......

UTB

 

[Marvin]

Hi this is my first post but thought I'd jump in having read this thread with interest.

The cost of the bank bailout to our government was estimated at £850 billion in December and is the cause of the UK's financial problems not loans like the one to Forgemasters but as the Conservatives are friends of the city and corporations the real reasons are being dropped off the radar and its all about blaming the public sector and a few potential investments announced by the outgoing government. The lack of economic development in the north and the public sector job cuts that are coming (and I'll bet are minimised in Whitehall) will ultimately cost the provinces and places like Sheffield leaving the south east and City virtually unharmed. The regional disparities will grow whilst the poor places will be blamed for their own downfall as seems to be starting to happen.

The country needs to address the massive debt and the public sector needs to take its share but it seems the governments policy is to just produce negative after negative about the public sector so mud will stick and ultimately hoping enough people will believe the lazy and overpaid public sector workers have brought the problems on themselves. There's no doubt some public sector pensions need to be changed, there needs to be a pay freeze and possible recruitment halt but I get the feeling there will be massive redundancies that will hit the provinces hard. Alcopop if you have a private sector business here it will effect you in some way as spend and investment in our city go down.

One of the misleading statement is places like Sheffield get more than our fair share of public spending. The big items of public expenditure are interest payments on the debt, education, health, welfare and defence. The only one where we may get more may be in welfare as we have more non working people but hospitals and schools in Sheffield don't get more per head than they do in London. In terms of capital investment I reckon overall we don't do as well as London and the South East. I read somewhere spending on transport schemes per head of the population is 3 times greater in London than Sheffield. They get things like Crossrail and S Yorks can't get a link road to our only airport. A major source of economic development money for Sheffield has come from Yorkshire Forward but the government wants to shut them down. Reading up on them they have to cover physical development, business support, inward invetsment, skills training, tourism and major events and if they go the budget for Yorkshire will go with them. London also has a development agency and this is being saved and put under Boris Johnsons control and they also get many other things like the olympics. The olympics has a budget of £9.3bn Yorkshire Forward has had around an average of £250m a year, so the olympics could keep it going for 40 years. Reading around Yorkshire Forward have supported many things that have helped Sheffield in the last 10 years, they led the response to the floods enabling loans to businesses before they could get insurance payouts, helping laid off Corus staff to try and find new jobs, developing a new high tech park on the old Orgreave colliery, helping get most of the new development in the city centre, helping the council keep the world snooker. No doubt they've done similar stuff across Yorkshire but thats going and we aren't get much other investment if Forgemasters is an example. The argument Walthamstow says is public money is drip fed to S Yorks is not true though it is true a lot of people comparativelyin Sheffield work in the public sector (work not toss it off some may but that's not exclusive to the public sector) and if those people are sacked then we'll have higher unemployment and more issues in Sheffield inbcluding making harder for the private sector here to to make money.

Other misleading arguments are ther public sector doesn't generate wealth. It can the utilities were a good idea before sold off and now in control of big business and that if the market won't invest something isn't worth doing. China is a classic example of how a statist approach can see strong economic growth. Building a nuclear press probably is too log term for private investors but as it's for future energy is probably a good long term bet and if Sheffield gets established for it will allow other spin off companies in the city to grow and create jobs and wealth. It was a loan and certainly wasn't the cause of the problems we now have but the way its been treated as an excess and a cause of the country's debt problems is just showing what Sheffield means to the new government. Its amazing leading up to a budget how dealing with the banking system has gone quiet but stuff like Forgemasters and public sector excess are coming out every day.

Sorry if this is a bit of a rant and rambling for a first post I'll try and get the hang of it. Better mention the Blades being minted Kevin McCabe will probably do ok out of the budget so you never know we might sign one or two later next week.

 

[alcoblade]

The country needs to address the massive debt and the public sector needs to take its share but it seems the governments policy is to just produce negative after negative about the public sector so mud will stick and ultimately hoping enough people will believe the lazy and overpaid public sector workers have brought the problems on themselves. There's no doubt some public sector pensions need to be changed, there needs to be a pay freeze and possible recruitment halt but I get the feeling there will be massive redundancies that will hit the provinces hard. Alcopop if you have a private sector business here it will effect you in some way as spend and investment in our city go down.
.

Marvin - I know the cuts will affect me - they will affect everybody. What's more, my wife works in the public sector. I've no doubt gained from they way it has become over bloated. But I've never formed my opinions out of self interest. My wife gets a gold plated public sector pension that will do me very well - but that doesn't make them fair.

We will all have a price to pay - but my point is that the public sector will have to bear the brunt of the cuts - because up to now it has remained largely unscathed, creating unfairness (ref pensions etc) which has to be addressed.

The banks should be screwed for their part - but we need to find a way of doing it which doesn't drive them away and subsequently generate less revenue. That's the sticky bit with a global system. Either way, screwing the banks wont in itself address the enormous defecit we've built up.

UTB