Clap the kids for trying something even if it goes wrong.

[Woodwardfan]

Hope you agree my quote below is worthy of a new thread. We are not looking for world beaters necessarily. We have let go too many good solid pros who have done well for other clubs and made a good living. Bournemouth's captain is one and he plays alongside three other defenders who could still be third tier players under different circumstances.

Like it or not and none of us like the fact that if a Premier League club want to sign a League1 player and help him realise his ambition to play in the top tier and increase his salary to a multiple of 4 then the club has nowhere to go. Not until any club is established in the top half of the Premier League can it resist bids from the top clubs.A League 1 club holding out for £10m is unrealsitic. MKD only got £5m for the exceptional Deli Alli but managed to keep him for an extra half a season in which they got promoted. Deli Alli would not have tolerated MKD holding out for £10m which might have taken another year or more. What's he on now £50k a week or more? Seriously a sell-on clause can be a good outcome. Even Maguire is on £14k a week and he's not in the first team of a Championship club. Jordan Slew is at Chesterfield on a short term contract but he's had a few years at maybe £10k a week. Our intended full wage budget is probably less than £4m in total.

We've spent 5 years in League 1 with an approach of signing experience and as much 'quality' as our budget allowed. We started with some good players and the quality has dwindled seriously over the 5 years as the third tier lower income streams have taken their toll and we've been losing £1m a month at times.

Something has to change from the 'same ow'd' way of signing experienced non-achieving journeymen. We even failed with some expensive recruits so logic says cheaper choices will fare no better. Developing Academy players and young recruits from elsewhere ( like Barnsley are doing) will make it harder to succeed in the short term as there will be inconsistency but surely it's better to man your squad with players who are grateful for the opportunity to be here rather than disappointed things didn't turn out better elsewhere.

IMO it's not about the big stars we produce because they'll only be with us a short while anyway, it's about say 70% of our 24 man squad and there's no reason why we can't produce our own or prise them away from smaller clubs further down the food chain. There'll be a few stars in amongst those as well. For the past 5 years that 70% of the squad has been costing us an arm and a leg for absolutely no return in quality and sometimes even effort.

Save our money for the players we need to complement the youngsters. It's a better way forward.

Some posters on here seem to delight in ridiculing young hopefuls. Let's change our mindset. We need the kids to succeed so let's encourage them to express themselves.

 

[Jim Chimmerney]

I don't think there's anyone who particularly 'ridicules young hopefuls'. They may comment that they don't think they are good enough, we've seen a bit of that with DCL recently but fans are generally far more forgiving of home grown players than the likes of Hammond, Basham etc. I know he's not a youngster anymore but by his own admission, Billy has missed plenty of decent chances this season yet it seems to be universally accepted that he's had a great season.

I'm not sure if you believe that it's the fans attitude that has meant we have lost these players in the past ?

 

[mattbianco1]

I think this is always the case to be fair. I have noticed people applaud an attempted pass by Louis Reed but would be boo and grunt if Hammond or Coutts did the same.

Quite ridiculous really.

 

[Woodwardfan]

I don't think there's anyone who particularly 'ridicules young hopefuls'. They may comment that they don't think they are good enough, we've seen a bit of that with DCL recently but fans are generally far more forgiving of home grown players than the likes of Hammond, Basham etc. I know he's not a youngster anymore but by his own admission, Billy has missed plenty of decent chances this season yet it seems to be universally accepted that he's had a great season.

I'm not sure if you believe that it's the fans attitude that has meant we have lost these players in the past ?

I'm not sure I mean that either, maybe it's complex and the fact that our club and fans' expectations of us being a bigger club than we actually are creates certain pressures. Our own managers and opposition managers talk about the pressures on the home side at Bramall Lane and that obviously affects young players all the more.

As for not ridiculing players on here, I'm afraid numerous posters do. Have a look at threads on Long and Reed over the past 6 months and they are two of our better youngsters.

 

[Woodwardfan]

I don't think there's anyone who particularly 'ridicules young hopefuls'. They may comment that they don't think they are good enough, we've seen a bit of that with DCL recently but fans are generally far more forgiving of home grown players than the likes of Hammond, Basham etc. I know he's not a youngster anymore but by his own admission, Billy has missed plenty of decent chances this season yet it seems to be universally accepted that he's had a great season.

I'm not sure if you believe that it's the fans attitude that has meant we have lost these players in the past ?

Thinking about it further I think the problem has been mainly with the incumbent managers who have not had the bottle to give youngsters the playing time every young player needs. Perhaps short term pressures are too great at a 'big club'. All the more reason to give Adkins ( or Wider!!) a minimum of two years to establish a new way of doing things.

 

[pommpey]

I'm not sure I mean that either, maybe it's complex and the fact that our club and fans' expectations of us being a bigger club than we actually are creates certain pressures.

What? The pressures of us being a Premier League club ten years ago with a 30k stadium and two thirds of it being full every other weekend?

Our own managers and opposition managers talk about the pressures on the home side at Bramall Lane and that obviously affects young players all the more.

Tubby boo hoo. Tell me how young Rashford copes with sixty thousand Man U fans expecting him to score. Its a big mans game. You are either up for it or aren't. Only expect sympathy from your manager and team and adulation from the fans if you are doing well. Don't forget, the fans pay your wages. You are indirectly employed by them.

As for not ridiculing players on here, I'm afraid numerous posters do. Have a look at threads on Long and Reed over the past 6 months and they are two of our better youngsters.

Long has had four years in and out of the squad now so can hardly be termed a 'youngster'. He can turn it on, and has in bucketloads. But he shouldn't expect the fans to hold his gloved hand when he fucks up. Petr Czech fucks up. He gets up, shakes his head and does better. I'm sure we expect Long to do the same. Reed shows potential, but he is naive and raw. That is reflective of people around him more than his ability and certainly nowt to do with the fans. If Reed had Micheal Brown or Stuard McCall playing in the same midfield instead of Basham, Hammond or Coutts, I'm sure he'd be turning it on consistently.

pommpey

 

[Jim Chimmerney]

I'm not sure I mean that either, maybe it's complex and the fact that our club and fans' expectations of us being a bigger club than we actually are creates certain pressures. Our own managers and opposition managers talk about the pressures on the home side at Bramall Lane and that obviously affects young players all the more.

As for not ridiculing players on here, I'm afraid numerous posters do. Have a look at threads on Long and Reed over the past 6 months and they are two of our better youngsters.

Adkins has commented plenty of times recently about the need for players who can cope with 18,000 fans and the expectations at this club and he's right. BDTBL is probably not the place to have your apprenticeship and I'm all for loaning them out for a season just to get used to playing regularly away from the obvious pressures. There's still the same pressure when they return but at least they've had chance (hopefully) to get some game time in the professional arena and come back more likely to succeed (we hope !).

I don't worry too much about 'keyboard warriors', I'm not sure this translates to the terraces when it really matters

 

[BushBlade]

The reality is, most young players are inconsistent. Even Rashford who Pommpey mentioned has had a couple of quieter games since he burst on the scene. Managers tend to prefer more senior players as they are less likely to make mistakes and more likely to be consistent.
It's always difficult bringing young players through when your first priority is promotion. We can't afford to build a team over two or three years, like, for example, Walsall have done.
Getting the balance between seriously challenging for promotion and bringing young players through is always difficult, almost conflicting.

 

[sitwell]

So should we have kept cheering Joe Ironside ,MacFadzean and Ian Ross all the way to the conference ? What a load of crap ,you have to happy clap a pro footballer because hes in his early 20s even though hes rubbish. What is the age when we can become unsure whether a player is good enough. Btw George long is 22 and our longest serving player ,are we still supposed to clap when he throws one in ,cant we have an opinion away from the pitch ?? I don't advocate booing or having a go at any player at a game but how will they learn if they get clapped everytime they fuck up ? These guys play football every day for a living and will have been coached for the last 10 years at least ,if they don't like criticism ,don't read message boards ,or revolutionary as it is... play better.

 

[nowtfancy]

Could put some of these up round the pitch too




And have a raffle to pay for the ref

 

[Tyler Durden]

The knives have come out for DCL and Reed already on here, yet Hammond is a misunderstood genius in the eyes of some. Strange mentality.

 

[alcoblade]

The knives have come out for DCL and Reed already on here, yet Hammond is a misunderstood genius in the eyes of some. Strange mentality.

And none of them look good enough in the eyes of others.

UTB

 

[The Crab]

Could put some of these up round the pitch too

View attachment 16557


And have a raffle to pay for the ref

Pity that a lot of the time, none of the above are adhered to on a Sunday morning.

 

[1danewhitehouse]

Hope you agree my quote below is worthy of a new thread. We are not looking for world beaters necessarily. We have let go too many good solid pros who have done well for other clubs and made a good living. Bournemouth's captain is one and he plays alongside three other defenders who could still be third tier players under different circumstances.





Some posters on here seem to delight in ridiculing young hopefuls. Let's change our mindset. We need the kids to succeed so let's encourage them to express themselves.

Not until any club is established in the top half of the Premier League can it resist bids from the top clubs-


Don’t entirely agree with this. We held firm on not selling Jags and got promoted as a result. The only time we’ve really done it in the last 15-20 years as I recall.


A League 1 club holding out for £10m is unrealistic-


Didn’t Southampton get that sort of money for Walcott, Oxlade-Chamberlain and Bale?


What's he on now £50k a week or more?-


I read that he was on £25k a week when he signed but they were thinking of offering him a new contract (thought to be £40-50k per week) because he had made such an impressive impact.



For the past 5 years that 70% of the squad has been costing us an arm and a leg for absolutely no return in quality and sometimes even effort.Save our money for the players we need to complement the youngsters. It's a better way forward.


This I agree with. If we’re going to spend money on the academy, it makes sense that a significant chunk of our squad is made up of the players it produces. Many have not been significantly worse than the players we’ve paid to bring in and using them instead would have saved enough money that we might have been able to bring in better quality to support them.


As for the post title, I agree with the sentiment but it’s probably a bit unrealistic. Many fans groan and curse before they realize who has committed the offence. Many are just nasty bastards that get on the backs of the likes of Adams and Reed regularly anyway (couple of morons behind me on the kop). At best, I think we can hope the presence of youth might discourage chants of “you’re not fit to wear the shirt” and “we’re fucking shit”.

 

[Woodwardfan]

Not until any club is established in the top half of the Premier League can it resist bids from the top clubs-


Don’t entirely agree with this. We held firm on not selling Jags and got promoted as a result. The only time we’ve really done it in the last 15-20 years as I recall.


A League 1 club holding out for £10m is unrealistic-


Didn’t Southampton get that sort of money for Walcott, Oxlade-Chamberlain and Bale?


What's he on now £50k a week or more?-


I read that he was on £25k a week when he signed but they were thinking of offering him a new contract (thought to be £40-50k per week) because he had made such an impressive impact.



For the past 5 years that 70% of the squad has been costing us an arm and a leg for absolutely no return in quality and sometimes even effort.Save our money for the players we need to complement the youngsters. It's a better way forward.


This I agree with. If we’re going to spend money on the academy, it makes sense that a significant chunk of our squad is made up of the players it produces. Many have not been significantly worse than the players we’ve paid to bring in and using them instead would have saved enough money that we might have been able to bring in better quality to support them.


As for the post title, I agree with the sentiment but it’s probably a bit unrealistic. Many fans groan and curse before they realize who has committed the offence. Many are just nasty bastards that get on the backs of the likes of Adams and Reed regularly anyway (couple of morons behind me on the kop). At best, I think we can hope the presence of youth might discourage chants of “you’re not fit to wear the shirt” and “we’re fucking shit”.

Did not intend to be taken too literally when I dashed the O.P. out, but just for interest:

Walcott 2006 to Arsenal £5m. Bale 2007 "eventual £7m" 2007 Chamberlain £12m 2011 . Southampton went up to the Championship in 2011 and the Prem in 2012. If we do produce a Walcott or a Bale I concede we might get near to £10m thougheven in League 1.

Jags was an age ago and weren't we in the Championship. Did we resist bids anyway? Even in the Championship and just down from the Premier League we sold him for £4m that's all. I know it was a sale clause in his contract but smaller clubs are at players' mercy when the big league comes knocking and that's one of my main points.

 

[Woodwardfan]

The knives have come out for DCL and Reed already on here, yet Hammond is a misunderstood genius in the eyes of some. Strange mentality.

Long is treated better on here these days but a thread at the beginning of the season was disgusting.

Also one character declared he should learn to become a florist after he played his first return game back to the team and he got 'likes' and support on the thread. .

 

[1danewhitehouse]

Did not intend to be taken too literally when I dashed the O.P. out, but just for interest:

Walcott 2006 to Arsenal £5m. Bale 2007 "eventual £7m" 2007 Chamberlain £12m 2011 . Southampton went up to the Championship in 2011 and the Prem in 2012. If we do produce a Walcott or a Bale I concede we might get near to £10m thougheven in League 1.

Jags was an age ago and weren't we in the Championship. Did we resist bids anyway? Even in the Championship and just down from the Premier League we sold him for £4m that's all. I know it was a sale clause in his contract but smaller clubs are at players' mercy when the big league comes knocking and that's one of my main points.

Oh I thought Walcott and Bale went for more than that. We did produce Kyle Walker and let him go for pittance only for him to be linked with a £20million move to Real Madrid a few years on.

We rejected an offer from then PL Wigan and I think West Ham in our promotion season. Jags said he was happy to stay because the club was showing ambition at the time.

 

[Treeton Blade]

Think of it like this....

 

[Woodwardfan]

Oh I thought Walcott and Bale went for more than that. We did produce Kyle Walker and let him go for pittance only for him to be linked with a £20million move to Real Madrid a few years on.

We rejected an offer from then PL Wigan and I think West Ham in our promotion season. Jags said he was happy to stay because the club was showing ambition at the time.

Wasn't it Naughton £5m and Walker £3m and bear in mind we were a Championship club then. It does make a difference when a lad is playing in League 1 in a relatively unsuccessful team and a Premier League club come knocking, it's like a 'Get out of Jail' card and winning the lottery all at once!!

The club can't realistically say 'stick with us lad, we are the future, yes we know you might get a career threatening injury and never get the chance to earn that big salary , but stick with us. No we can't guarantee that we will spend big to ensure promotion and no we won't even guarantee you a first team place, that's the manager's decision and we change them every year. Pay rise, 4x your wages? You're having a laugh, we can't afford loan deals at present"

 

[Alfreton14Blade]

I think this is always the case to be fair. I have noticed people applaud an attempted pass by Louis Reed but would be boo and grunt if Hammond or Coutts did the same.

Quite ridiculous really.

Well, just consider the stick that Coutts gets when he's coming on as a sub...

 

[1danewhitehouse]

Wasn't it Naughton £5m and Walker £3m and bear in mind we were a Championship club then. It does make a difference when a lad is playing in League 1 in a relatively unsuccessful team and a Premier League club come knocking, it's like a 'Get out of Jail' card and winning the lottery all at once!!

The club can't realistically say 'stick with us lad, we are the future, yes we know you might get a career threatening injury and never get the chance to earn that big salary , but stick with us. No we can't guarantee that we will spend big to ensure promotion and no we won't even guarantee you a first team place, that's the manager's decision and we change them every year. Pay rise, 4x your wages? You're having a laugh, we can't afford loan deals at present"

Walker was I think £2million potentially rising to £3million and Naughton something like £5 million potentially rising to £7million.


What they can do though is say "you signed a 3 year deal 6 months ago and we are under no obligation to sell you right now. If a club offer huge money, we'll consider it but unless that happens you will stay and honour your contract" or at least make them honour another year retaining the option to sell when they have 12-18 months left but again, we shouldn't need to do that even then if we have "game-changing" investment which means we "no longer need to sell our best young players". We fans didn't come up with those words.

 

[1danewhitehouse]

Wasn't it Naughton £5m and Walker £3m and bear in mind we were a Championship club then. It does make a difference when a lad is playing in League 1 in a relatively unsuccessful team and a Premier League club come knocking, it's like a 'Get out of Jail' card and winning the lottery all at once!!

The club can't realistically say 'stick with us lad, we are the future, yes we know you might get a career threatening injury and never get the chance to earn that big salary , but stick with us. No we can't guarantee that we will spend big to ensure promotion and no we won't even guarantee you a first team place, that's the manager's decision and we change them every year. Pay rise, 4x your wages? You're having a laugh, we can't afford loan deals at present"

And let's not forget, Walker didn't even express a wish to leave. We just chucked him into the deal to get a few more quid into the coffers and then even ballsed up the loan agreement.

 

[1danewhitehouse]

Did not intend to be taken too literally when I dashed the O.P. out, but just for interest:

Walcott 2006 to Arsenal £5m. Bale 2007 "eventual £7m" 2007 Chamberlain £12m 2011 . Southampton went up to the Championship in 2011 and the Prem in 2012. If we do produce a Walcott or a Bale I concede we might get near to £10m thougheven in League 1.

Jags was an age ago and weren't we in the Championship. Did we resist bids anyway? Even in the Championship and just down from the Premier League we sold him for £4m that's all. I know it was a sale clause in his contract but smaller clubs are at players' mercy when the big league comes knocking and that's one of my main points.

Just checked Wiki and it says

Walcott- £5million potentially rising to £12million- Settled at £9.1million (2006)

Bale- £5million potentially rising to £10million- Settled at £7million. (2007)

Ox- £12million potentially rising to £15 million (2011).

So for the 3 players, they received between £28-31 million.

 

[Sean Thornton]

Adkins has commented plenty of times recently about the need for players who can cope with 18,000 fans and the expectations at this club and he's right. BDTBL is probably not the place to have your apprenticeship and I'm all for loaning them out for a season just to get used to playing regularly away from the obvious pressures. There's still the same pressure when they return but at least they've had chance (hopefully) to get some game time in the professional arena and come back more

And let's not forget, Walker didn't even express a wish to leave. We just chucked him into the deal to get a few more quid into the coffers and then even ballsed up the loan agreement.

All of which is pretty much supposition though turned to stone over the years. Better to concentrate on announcements coming from the boardroom more recently such as Clough running away with the budget seemingly unhindered by the owners.
Now if that's 100% true, you have to ask yourself what McCabe has done over the years to stop these disasters? Why hasn't it worked and is he now sure it's all stopped for the future.

If it was just Jim spinning again, then they are hardly in a position to be surprised at the losses and the money they have to put in to cover them.

 

[1danewhitehouse]

All of which is pretty much supposition though turned to stone over the years. Better to concentrate on announcements coming from the boardroom more recently such as Clough running away with the budget seemingly unhindered by the owners.
Now if that's 100% true, you have to ask yourself what McCabe has done over the years to stop these disasters? Why hasn't it worked and is he now sure it's all stopped for the future.

If it was just Jim spinning again, then they are hardly in a position to be surprised at the losses and the money they have to put in to cover them.

The Walker thing was ITK information. Apparently he had no hand in engineering the move (Naughton did want to go). He was apparently gutted at the loan recall in January when told to get off the team bus headed for Watford that night.

 

[Sean Thornton]

The Walker thing was ITK information. Apparently he had no hand in engineering the move (Naughton did want to go). He was apparently gutted at the loan recall in January when told to get off the team bus headed for Watford that night.

I was referring to the fees. I've known Kyle W's dad for years and I wouldn't disagree with what you've posted above.

 

[TonyAgana]

Well, just consider the stick that Coutts gets when he's coming on as a sub...

Really? Are you referring to the low, rumbling noise that is similar-sounding to whenever Wayne Allison, Keith Gillespie or Stefan Scougall entered the fray?

 

[pommpey]

All of which is pretty much supposition though turned to stone over the years. Better to concentrate on announcements coming from the boardroom more recently such as Clough running away with the budget seemingly unhindered by the owners.
Now if that's 100% true, you have to ask yourself what McCabe has done over the years to stop these disasters? Why hasn't it worked and is he now sure it's all stopped for the future.

If it was just Jim spinning again, then they are hardly in a position to be surprised at the losses and the money they have to put in to cover them.

Seems to me like it's the board farting it out of their arses, with Cluff sat happy as manager of Burton Albion at the top of the league with a fat silencing wedge in his skyrocket.

pommpey

 

[BushBlade]

All of which is pretty much supposition though turned to stone over the years. Better to concentrate on announcements coming from the boardroom more recently such as Clough running away with the budget seemingly unhindered by the owners.
Now if that's 100% true, you have to ask yourself what McCabe has done over the years to stop these disasters? Why hasn't it worked and is he now sure it's all stopped for the future.

If it was just Jim spinning again, then they are hardly in a position to be surprised at the losses and the money they have to put in to cover them.

If I'd put millions into a business I'd want to know exactly what was going on, where it was being spent etc.

It seems pretty obvious they knew exactly how much they were spending but just assumed we would go up and therefore it didn't matter. There seems to be no consideration of what may happen when we don't.

 

[pommpey]

If I'd put millions into a business I'd want to know exactly what was going on, where it was being spent etc.

See also - the supporters who turn up to watch the game.

They are entitled to know how much has been spent on player 'x'.

The way they keep that from the fanbase makes my piss fizz.

pommpey