Clap the kids for trying something even if it goes wrong.

[Sean Thornton]

If I'd put millions into a business I'd want to know exactly what was going on, where it was being spent etc.

It seems pretty obvious they knew exactly how much they were spending but just assumed we would go up and therefore it didn't matter. There seems to be no consideration of what may happen when we don't.

Exactly. Seems to me just a ploy to get fans onside by blaming Clough whilst expecting us to just disregard all the earlier cock ups they've made by having sympathy. Like Jim counting cup receipts etcetera as "investment". Another PR disaster which just shows how they see the fan base.

 

[BushBlade]

See also - the supporters who turn up to watch the game.

They are entitled to know how much has been spent on player 'x'.

The way they keep that from the fanbase makes my piss fizz.

pommpey

Not my biggest concern tbh. I'd be happy to be kept in the dark over transfer fees if we were punching our weight and KM didn't keep banging on about how much he's lost.
Here's a thought Kev, run your business properly and employ some people who know how to run a club instead of your mates and your son.

 

[1danewhitehouse]

I was referring to the fees. I've known Kyle W's dad for years and I wouldn't disagree with what you've posted above.

Ah fair enough, I thought you meant him not engineering the move. The fee is just what was widely reported as what Radio Sheff and the Stir ‘believed it to be’.

 

[longinthe toothblade]

Hope you agree my quote below is worthy of a new thread. We are not looking for world beaters necessarily. We have let go too many good solid pros who have done well for other clubs and made a good living. Bournemouth's captain is one and he plays alongside three other defenders who could still be third tier players under different circumstances.





Some posters on here seem to delight in ridiculing young hopefuls. Let's change our mindset. We need the kids to succeed so let's encourage them to express themselves.

Yes, if they are good enough - period.

 

[Woodwardfan]

Yes, if they are good enough - period.

How good is good enough, period?

How good does a young lad have to be to break into our first team in League 1 and grow with the club right into the Prem?

When Simon Francis left United nobody hardly noticed and in any case any football squad is made up out of players of all sorts of abilities and qualities. A team of 11 Messi's would be bottom half League 2.

 

[GRUMPY BLADE]

Just checked Wiki and it says

Walcott- £5million potentially rising to £12million- Settled at £9.1million (2006)

Bale- £5million potentially rising to £10million- Settled at £7million. (2007)

Ox- £12million potentially rising to £15 million (2011).

So for the 3 players, they received between £28-31 million.

We'd have caved in for £12M max.

 

[1danewhitehouse]

How good is good enough, period?

How good does a young lad have to be to break into our first team in League 1 and grow with the club right into the Prem?

When Simon Francis left United nobody hardly noticed and in any case any football squad is made up out of players of all sorts of abilities and qualities. A team of 11 Messi's would be bottom half League 2.

I disagree about the last part. Despite the obvious shortcomings that team would have I'd say it would be significantly higher.

Francis is a bit different. By his own admission, he had his head up his arse as a youngster. Same as Kyle McFadzean. It's a shame neither are with the club but both probably needed to nearly lose their careers to focus their minds and make the climb back up.

 

[longinthe toothblade]

How good is good enough, period?

How good does a young lad have to be to break into our first team in League 1 and grow with the club right into the Prem?

When Simon Francis left United nobody hardly noticed and in any case any football squad is made up out of players of all sorts of abilities and qualities. A team of 11 Messi's would be bottom half League 2.

Know all that, but I think you know what I mean.

 

[Woodwardfan]

Know all that, but I think you know what I mean.

Yes but do you know what I mean if we are looking to have a majority of home grown or young recruits in our squad.

What I'm getting at is the fact that we have let go so many players who were in fact good enough to play for us for years. Not super stars, more good pros that do a job, honest committed, sound and fairly average but reliable players who play to plan and for the team. Every squad needs players who do the spadework which enables the match winners to put the icing on the cake.

For example Reed, Wallace, Long, Whiteman, Lewin, Kelly do not have to be world- beaters at this stage of their career but they need game time here not just on loan away from S2 and the pressures here. Jags was not that great in his first 30 games which he played in midfield from memory. Not everybody thought 'wow' this lad's going to play hundreds of games in the Premier League and that's Jags a class act. I'm talking about more bread and butter players who don't have to look so great as yet. So when you say "good enough, period" that's what I would mean by that.

Any squad needs a blend of players and doesn't need more than a few match winners in a squad of 24.

 

[1danewhitehouse]

Yes but do you know what I mean if we are looking to have a majority of home grown or young recruits in our squad.

What I'm getting at is the fact that we have let go so many players who were in fact good enough to play for us for years. Not super stars, more good pros that do a job, honest committed, sound and fairly average but reliable players who play to plan and for the team. Every squad needs players who do the spadework which enables the match winners to put the icing on the cake.

For example Reed, Wallace, Long, Whiteman, Lewin, Kelly do not have to be world- beaters at this stage of their career but they need game time here not just on loan away from S2 and the pressures here. Jags was not that great in his first 30 games which he played in midfield from memory. Not everybody thought 'wow' this lad's going to play hundreds of games in the Premier League and that's Jags a class act. I'm talking about more bread and butter players who don't have to look so great as yet. So when you say "good enough, period" that's what I would mean by that.

Any squad needs a blend of players and doesn't need more than a few match winners in a squad of 24.

Not entirely disagreeing with you here but out of interest, who would you say these 'so many' players are?

 

[William Henry Foulkes]

A team of 11 Messi's would be bottom half League 2.

I'd fancy our chances at set pieces.

 

[Deleted member 875]

I'd fancy our chances at set pieces.

Brown sauce or Tomato Ketchup.

You always strike me as being a man who would prefer Brown sauce, can you let me know what your preference is as I have always wondered, and if nowt else it will set my mind at rest.

 

[Sean Thornton]

Brown sauce or Tomato Ketchup.

You always strike me as being a man who would prefer Brown sauce, can you let me know what your preference is as I have always wondered, and if nowt else it will set my mind at rest.

Gentlemens Relish!

 

[William Henry Foulkes]

Not entirely disagreeing with you here but out of interest, who would you say these 'so many' players are?

Was just about to post this almost word for word.

Related - it's not always about individuals.

I wonder if at some point transfers will develop and teams will sign combinations of players. Maybe they do already.

For us Brayford and Coutts work better as a pair than either does individually. Well, maybe.

From a different part of the footballing spectrum I think we'd benefit from signing the modern equivalent of Gullit, Rijkaard, and van Basten.

The whole is greater than the sum of the parts.
Albert Einstein

;-)

 

[Deleted member 875]

Was just about to post this almost word for word.

Related - it's not always about individuals.

I wonder if at some point transfers will develop and teams will sign combinations of players. Maybe they do already.

For us Brayford and Coutts work better as a pair than either does individually. Well, maybe.

From a different part of the footballing spectrum I think we'd benefit from signing the modern equivalent of Gullit, Rijkaard, and van Basten.

The whole is greater than the sum of the parts.
Albert Einstein

;-)

Albert Einstein once said "The only source of knowledge is experience", do you think this forms some of the basis of the continued selection.

I'd like to hear what you think to this theorem, and then maybe we both partake in a stimulating debate about philosophical and footballing matters.

As it happens I see a lot of parralels in the musings of Neitzsche and the ongoing hardships suffered by Diego De Girolamo, but that, like a lot of philosophy is merely subjective

 

[1danewhitehouse]

Brown sauce or Tomato Ketchup.

You always strike me as being a man who would prefer Brown sauce, can you let me know what your preference is as I have always wondered, and if nowt else it will set my mind at rest.

Brown sauce with bacon sarnies, ketchup with sausage sarnies.

 

[Woodwardfan]

I'd fancy our chances at set pieces.

Defensively??!!

 

[Sean Thornton]

Who said :

• 
  
• 
  
• "We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."

Clue , it's not Kevin McCabe!

 

[Lord Bos of Eckington.]

Who said :

• 
  
• 
  
• "We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."

Clue , it's not Kevin McCabe!

It was Albert again , and not Tatlock .

UTB

 

[Woodwardfan]

I'll compile a list of players tomorrow but the one I always think of is Chris Marsden who played just 16 games for us in the late 80's. He looked a proper footballer but was booed by our home crowd a few times. He was transferred to Huddersfield for about £10k and had a great career with them, going on to the Premier League with Southampton. Always looked a good player but he was small and bald and never really looked the part.

P.S. He played in the Prem for Coventry and over 100 games for Southamton. Captained Southampton in the 2003 F.A.Cup Final.

 

[BushBlade]

Who said :

• 
  
• 
  
• "We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."

Clue , it's not Kevin McCabe!

Ched's lawyer?

 

[Woodwardfan]

My list is not as long as I thought it would be so I withdraw the "many players" I thought it was and now say "few", I'm in shock!! I've not included players for whom we got a respectable fee.

Billy Sharp ( we did get £1m the second time though, nowhere near enough anyway, but we only took £100k first time was ridiculous )
Chris Marsden
Simon Francis
Jonathan Forte
Nicky Law
Kevin Hurst
Kyle McFadzean
Kyel Reid
Mark Foran

Evan Horwood has earned a living at lower levels but I've not included him.
I would include Elliott Whitehouse because I think he will do well but he hasn't yet.

I will have missed a couple so I'd be grateful if anybody can add names to the list. I need help!

What did strike me as I trawled through Wikipedia was the numbers of awful footballers we've had in our squads and yet the rarity of a home grown players getting shirt numbers below No. 20. In fact as a general rule only the well known players we have sold on have got a shirt number below say 20. Ben Whiteman will get a lower numbered shirt next season and that singles him out actually; he had a shirt number (30) last season but wasn't in the squad list at the start of this season for some reason. Reed is No. 22, Diego 24, Long 25!, Kennedy 26, Lewin 27, McFadzean 28, Adams 29, K.Wallace 30, DiMao 31, McGeahey 32. Only 'locals' Sharp and Willis (13) are below No.20.

If the U-18's and U 21's have squads of say 20 players each year then the numbers actually making their living at all from the game is really disappointing. The expense of the Academy ( £1m a year has been mentioned) can be covered for years by the sale of one star player who also contributes to the first team while he is here so there is no case against the Academy in the past financially but maybe the wish/ hope of homegrowing 50% of our squad is actually 'pie in the sky' and that doesn't sit easy with me for a League 1 club.

Under the appalling new categorisation system though it will be harder to find those stars and keep them with us so maybe the future of the Academy could be under review.

Otis Khan and Conor Dimao could well be added to the list in time. By releasing those two are we saying we believe they are not good enough to make a living at League 1 level, progressing to Championship in due course? Or are we saying we have other priorities and demands at present which mean we can't afford to wait to find out? Thankfully they are both good enough to find clubs and I wish them well.

Oh for the days when our youth players had a 'pathway' to the first team and we felt as though they were part of our family, we had watched them so long from 16 years old for years and years and know what? they were local and they were brilliant, plenty good enough and comprised more than 50% of the squad. Where are their modern equivalents now, not just the big stars but all the others?

 

[sheffielder]

I don't think there's anyone who particularly 'ridicules young hopefuls'. They may comment that they don't think they are good enough, we've seen a bit of that with DCL recently but fans are generally far more forgiving of home grown players than the likes of Hammond, Basham etc. I know he's not a youngster anymore but by his own admission, Billy has missed plenty of decent chances this season yet it seems to be universally accepted that he's had a great season.

I'm not sure if you believe that it's the fans attitude that has meant we have lost these players in the past ?

Pinchy

 

[William Henry Foulkes]

My list is not as long as I thought it would be so I withdraw the "many players" I thought it was and now say "few", I'm in shock!! I've not included players for whom we got a respectable fee.

Billy Sharp ( we did get £1m the second time though, nowhere near enough anyway, but we only took £100k first time was ridiculous )
Chris Marsden
Simon Francis
Jonathan Forte
Nicky Law
Kevin Hurst
Kyle McFadzean
Kyel Reid
Mark Foran

Evan Horwood has earned a living at lower levels but I've not included him.
I would include Elliott Whitehouse because I think he will do well but he hasn't yet.

I will have missed a couple so I'd be grateful if anybody can add names to the list. I need help!

What did strike me as I trawled through Wikipedia was the numbers of awful footballers we've had in our squads and yet the rarity of a home grown players getting shirt numbers below No. 20. In fact as a general rule only the well known players we have sold on have got a shirt number below say 20. Ben Whiteman will get a lower numbered shirt next season and that singles him out actually; he had a shirt number (30) last season but wasn't in the squad list at the start of this season for some reason. Reed is No. 22, Diego 24, Long 25!, Kennedy 26, Lewin 27, McFadzean 28, Adams 29, K.Wallace 30, DiMao 31, McGeahey 32. Only 'locals' Sharp and Willis (13) are below No.20.

If the U-18's and U 21's have squads of say 20 players each year then the numbers actually making their living at all from the game is really disappointing. The expense of the Academy ( £1m a year has been mentioned) can be covered for years by the sale of one star player who also contributes to the first team while he is here so there is no case against the Academy in the past financially but maybe the wish/ hope of homegrowing 50% of our squad is actually 'pie in the sky' and that doesn't sit easy with me for a League 1 club.

Under the appalling new categorisation system though it will be harder to find those stars and keep them with us so maybe the future of the Academy could be under review.

Otis Khan and Conor Dimao could well be added to the list in time. By releasing those two are we saying we believe they are not good enough to make a living at League 1 level, progressing to Championship in due course? Or are we saying we have other priorities and demands at present which mean we can't afford to wait to find out? Thankfully they are both good enough to find clubs and I wish them well.

Oh for the days when our youth players had a 'pathway' to the first team and we felt as though they were part of our family, we had watched them so long from 16 years old for years and years and know what? they were local and they were brilliant, plenty good enough and comprised more than 50% of the squad. Where are their modern equivalents now, not just the big stars but all the others?

Great post.

To pick up on the last part I wonder what Adkins' success rate with youngsters was at Scunthorpe.

Young players have featured much more prominently on the pitch and off it (in interviews) in recent weeks.

What he added yesterday was that with the right guidance, standards, and work ethic a relatively limited footballer can go a long way. He seems keen on getting the most out of the Academy players - this should be a good reason for them to stay, and for other youngsters to be attracted to the club - though not Ryan Kent just yet.

I keep losing track of the Academy status shenanigans, but dangling the carrot of first team football and player development will be attractive to some - even if fabulous riches/Parnassian bling are tempting others elsewhere.

We want players who want to play - again a consistent message.

Speaking of which, the oft mentioned "honest hardworking professional" might be what he sees as "a Sheffield United player". This sounds like it could just be functional, but given how he tried to include Baxter I think flair and creativity will have a place - but it has to come with discipline.

 

[BushBlade]

My list is not as long as I thought it would be so I withdraw the "many players" I thought it was and now say "few", I'm in shock!! I've not included players for whom we got a respectable fee.

Billy Sharp ( we did get £1m the second time though, nowhere near enough anyway, but we only took £100k first time was ridiculous )
Chris Marsden
Simon Francis
Jonathan Forte
Nicky Law
Kevin Hurst
Kyle McFadzean
Kyel Reid
Mark Foran

Evan Horwood has earned a living at lower levels but I've not included him.
I would include Elliott Whitehouse because I think he will do well but he hasn't yet.

I will have missed a couple so I'd be grateful if anybody can add names to the list. I need help!

What did strike me as I trawled through Wikipedia was the numbers of awful footballers we've had in our squads and yet the rarity of a home grown players getting shirt numbers below No. 20. In fact as a general rule only the well known players we have sold on have got a shirt number below say 20. Ben Whiteman will get a lower numbered shirt next season and that singles him out actually; he had a shirt number (30) last season but wasn't in the squad list at the start of this season for some reason. Reed is No. 22, Diego 24, Long 25!, Kennedy 26, Lewin 27, McFadzean 28, Adams 29, K.Wallace 30, DiMao 31, McGeahey 32. Only 'locals' Sharp and Willis (13) are below No.20.

If the U-18's and U 21's have squads of say 20 players each year then the numbers actually making their living at all from the game is really disappointing. The expense of the Academy ( £1m a year has been mentioned) can be covered for years by the sale of one star player who also contributes to the first team while he is here so there is no case against the Academy in the past financially but maybe the wish/ hope of homegrowing 50% of our squad is actually 'pie in the sky' and that doesn't sit easy with me for a League 1 club.

Under the appalling new categorisation system though it will be harder to find those stars and keep them with us so maybe the future of the Academy could be under review.

Otis Khan and Conor Dimao could well be added to the list in time. By releasing those two are we saying we believe they are not good enough to make a living at League 1 level, progressing to Championship in due course? Or are we saying we have other priorities and demands at present which mean we can't afford to wait to find out? Thankfully they are both good enough to find clubs and I wish them well.

Oh for the days when our youth players had a 'pathway' to the first team and we felt as though they were part of our family, we had watched them so long from 16 years old for years and years and know what? they were local and they were brilliant, plenty good enough and comprised more than 50% of the squad. Where are their modern equivalents now, not just the big stars but all the others?

I think Khan and Dimao were seen as players who will become decent lower league players given time but by the time they are, we should be in the championship. And that they needed game time to develop, which we weren't prepared to give them. The same as Coady may end up back in the PL but probably never at one of the top clubs, so Liverpool let him go.

 

[Woodwardfan]

I think Khan and Dimao were seen as players who will become decent lower league players given time but by the time they are, we should be in the championship. And that they needed game time to develop, which we weren't prepared to give them. The same as Coady may end up back in the PL but probably never at one of the top clubs, so Liverpool let him go.

Maybe that's a big decision and questionable approach when we have so many players on our books on high wages who are patently not good enough for League 1 at the height of their careers as so many of our players should be according to their wages and their ages. Something is wrong somewhere. Give me a home grown lad playing for his future anytime in front of an older mercenary who doesn't want to be with us anymore and so plays at 60% effort.

 

[Revolution]

I'll compile a list of players tomorrow but the one I always think of is Chris Marsden who played just 16 games for us in the late 80's. He looked a proper footballer but was booed by our home crowd a few times. He was transferred to Huddersfield for about £10k and had a great career with them, going on to the Premier League with Southampton. Always looked a good player but he was small and bald and never really looked the part.

P.S. He played in the Prem for Coventry and over 100 games for Southamton. Captained Southampton in the 2003 F.A.Cup Final.

Revisionist claptrap.

Like most of the 1987-8 team, Marsden played poorly. He had a couple of good years in the PL - 12 years after we sold him. In the interim he was a journeyman midfielder largely in the second and third tiers, at teams doing worse than United were at the time. He played a grand total of 7 PL games before he was 30. His career arc was one of the oddest I have ever seen, and no one could have predicted what he would become. He did not always look a good player because for the first 10 year he was an average player.

And I was there when he played for us. No one was booing Marsden. You have made that up.