Burton Analysis

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You are right then Foulksey.

There's you and then there's everyone else.

:-)

Well it got one like so there's two of us, at least.

Point being plenty of posts use this "The Fans".

Can't see it's ever justified. Isn't it just being a self-appointed spokesperson?

Someone else posted something recently about binary thinking. It's all absolutes.

I reckon do a Find and Replace "the fans" with "some fans" and the rhetoric loses some force but gains some accuracy and proportion.
 



So put "most fans", or perhaps more accurately "a lot of fans".

I think it's reasonable to adopt a Not In My Name stance.

I strongly disagree with much of what's been posted after Tuesday.

The rest of the post is largely more Straw Man stuff.
Your refusal to answer questions after intimating that you knew more than others about football and its ethics says loads. And Yes I will push the issue on one of the main footballing ethic which was so stark on Tuesday
(at least to those who have been trained) AND to most who have not because it has been one of the biggest points raised. So come on WHF give us, or at least try to give us some of the taught ethics that ALL FA affiliated football clubs academies teach.
You first with the answers as I answered mine "the Fans" in my last post to you when I pointed out that different opinions are available.
 
Totally agree. Having watched a couple of games since Tuesday night, I keep getting recurring nightmares of that first ten minutes when it dawned on me we were playing an ultra defensive 3-5-2 with the wing backs withdrawn deep and Edgar in midfield. Not only that, it was like we were playing a team from Mars who had 10 Ronaldos ready to tear us apart.

Our caution was extreme. Our tempo with the ball was as slow as I can ever remember a home team at Bramall Lane.

Deadbat is right. So many players, a majority in fact, were "going through the motions". Now this can be construed as playing under orders, a tight, cagey game, waiting for the opposition to lose their way and run out of ideas or get overconfident. In fairness Burton did not lose their edge, they continued playing functional, grinding football which got them a goal in the fullness of time and could have got them a couple more. Only briefly in extra time was there a hint of a half chance for us.

Body language, player interactions, emotions, 'being on their toes', tempers, taking exception, fouling, 'running around!', 'ruffling a few feathers', encouraging each other etc. etc. - all things that show a team means to win. I reckon 7 of our players played with no adrenalin last Tuesday.

Look last night how West Ham set about beating Spurs - they ran them off their game, never gave them a minute. Liverpool too, bossed Man City. Everything about their body language showed they cared.

On Tuesday, when Whiteman had been on about ten minutes my wife said " at least that lad looks up for it and look at him clapping and encouraging his team-mates", that was because he was the exception. On Tuesday even Sharp eventually lost that side of his game and is there any wonder when he's playing with so many silent, emotionless, characterless, colourless colleagues. My above nightmare can still see Coutts, Edgar and Cuvelier in that central midfield. At least Done showed some effort but maybe didn't play within the 'plan' but Brayford was a ghost of his true self until he switched to the left and woke up.

We were playing Burton Albion who were top of the league but not on a particularly strong run of form. We handed them a comfortable away win without really 'ruffling their feathers' in any way whatsoever.

Talk sysems and change systems for ever and a day. Any system needs some application and some hard work and passion.

Top quality post. Passionately perceptive.

As regards Ben Whiteman, I noticed that too. Really ought to be utterly shaming to his teammates for a 19 year old debutant to stand out for his vocal encouragement of others & for visibly trying to impose a bit of organisation. But it won't be.
 
Your refusal to answer questions after intimating that you knew more than others about football and its ethics says loads. And Yes I will push the issue on one of the main footballing ethic which was so stark on Tuesday
(at least to those who have been trained) AND to most who have not because it has been one of the biggest points raised. So come on WHF give us, or at least try to give us some of the taught ethics that ALL FA affiliated football clubs academies teach.
You first with the answers as I answered mine "the Fans" in my last post to you when I pointed out that different opinions are available.

This "know more" stuff is just nonsense.

The rest I genuinely have no idea what it means.

Is there is question in there? If so what is it? Plain English please.
 
As I saw the line up last night I was encouraged, thinking we'd line up like this:

Long

Brayford Edgar Collins McEveley

Coutts
Basham - - - Cuvelier
Done - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Adams
Sharp
This is Clough's favoured formation with one holding player in midfield and two box to box players. Experience at the back, pace and movement in the forward three. With that set up I was hopeful we'd match them man for man and maybe our players' pedigree and being at home would edge it in our favour.

However our starting line up was:


Long

Basham Collins McEveley
Brayford - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Done
Coutts Edgar Cuvelier

Sharp Adams

I was surprised to learn that Edgar was in midfield, a bit deeper than Coutts and Cuvelier. I don't think Coutts should be considered for such a demanding role as the right sided one in a midfield three. With Edgar not the most mobile either, our main weakness this season, covering ground in midfield, looked to still be in place.

What happened was that our wing backs were being occupied by two busy opposition wingers, meaning they effectively played as full backs. This meant we became back-heavy with a deep back five and a struggling trio in midfield, where two of them weren't great at covering ground, closing down, etc. When Cuvelier tried he had a long distance to run before he came close to an opponent, and was easily bypassed.

I think Adkins referred to Coutts in his post match interview. I think Adkins, for some reason, still expects Coutts to run up and down and play as a creative, all-action box to box midfielder, making runs beyond the strikers. He's clearly not able to do it. Instead he came short, as is his natural game, get on the ball and play neat passes.

The result of this was that we had a deep back five, a centre half playing as a protecting anchor, and Coutts also coming deep to distribute. This is 7 defensive or holding players! Burton had few problems sussing out our remaining three, Sharp, Adams and Cuvelier when we attacked.

A couple of still photos (I wish there was less zoom) of Coutts coming deep, rather than trying to find an attacking position. With Burton getting ten players behind the ball, we have two or three in front of it. This happened too often.

View attachment 16324
View attachment 16325



After 26 minutes Adkins changed it to a 4-2-3-1:


Long

Brayford Edgar Collins McEveley

Coutts Basham

Cuvelier
Done - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Adams
Sharp

This is pretty close to what I wanted. But not quite. I think the tweak in midfield, the inversion of the triangle, was unfortunate. Again we became too weak in midfield.

With Done and Adams inside forwards, encouraged to push forward and support Sharp, and Cuvelier also defending in front of the two other midfielders, we are effectively left with a two man midfield, with one of them unable/unwilling to run and chase. Basham in that position usually ends up doing very little, being two deep to chase and harry (his strength). Instead he just tries to prevent the opposition running straight through us.

So although we had some talent going forward we were unable to get the ball to them in good positions.

Credit to Burton they are very good at what we are poor at. They sprint to cover ground defensively, they gegenpress and generally work so hard for each other.

Here's a situation that looked promising for a second after we strung a couple of passes together:

View attachment 16323
* Cuvelier finally in some space, but a split second later they are all over him like hyenas. He ended up giving them a throw in.

In the second half we conceded the goal and then tried 4-2-4. This gave us more players in advanced positions, but again we had little idea of how to get the ball to them and we just couldn't find any space.


I understand that people are getting fed up with the players, but we haven't established what our playing style is, what this team is going to be good at. We are still asking players to do roles that don't suit them and we struggle to get the balance right and this leads to poor performances.

Have you heard Adkins comments about (paraphrasing) one player refusing, due to ego, to carry out team orders?

If so, who do you think it is?

My money is on Coutts - but that's based on what I think his personality is, rather than any close observation of the game.
 
Bergen Blade whilst I always appreciate your analysis, I think Adkins had a point in his post match interviews about winning individual battles and having that desire to be better than your counterpart. The failure to do that throughout the game was the biggest difference in my opinion.

He has made that point before.

And you can lose your 1v1 for lots of reasons. One is effort. Others include ability, physicality (Akins? their giant left mid?), organisation, fear, etc.
 
Have you heard Adkins comments about (paraphrasing) one player refusing, due to ego, to carry out team orders?

If so, who do you think it is?

My money is on Coutts - but that's based on what I think his personality is, rather than any close observation of the game.
He said in his post he thinks it is Coutts that was being referred to. :)
 
As I saw the line up last night I was encouraged, thinking we'd line up like this:

Long

Brayford Edgar Collins McEveley

Coutts
Basham - - - Cuvelier
Done - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Adams
Sharp
This is Clough's favoured formation with one holding player in midfield and two box to box players. Experience at the back, pace and movement in the forward three. With that set up I was hopeful we'd match them man for man and maybe our players' pedigree and being at home would edge it in our favour.

However our starting line up was:


Long

Basham Collins McEveley
Brayford - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Done
Coutts Edgar Cuvelier

Sharp Adams

I was surprised to learn that Edgar was in midfield, a bit deeper than Coutts and Cuvelier. I don't think Coutts should be considered for such a demanding role as the right sided one in a midfield three. With Edgar not the most mobile either, our main weakness this season, covering ground in midfield, looked to still be in place.

What happened was that our wing backs were being occupied by two busy opposition wingers, meaning they effectively played as full backs. This meant we became back-heavy with a deep back five and a struggling trio in midfield, where two of them weren't great at covering ground, closing down, etc. When Cuvelier tried he had a long distance to run before he came close to an opponent, and was easily bypassed.

I think Adkins referred to Coutts in his post match interview. I think Adkins, for some reason, still expects Coutts to run up and down and play as a creative, all-action box to box midfielder, making runs beyond the strikers. He's clearly not able to do it. Instead he came short, as is his natural game, get on the ball and play neat passes.

The result of this was that we had a deep back five, a centre half playing as a protecting anchor, and Coutts also coming deep to distribute. This is 7 defensive or holding players! Burton had few problems sussing out our remaining three, Sharp, Adams and Cuvelier when we attacked.

A couple of still photos (I wish there was less zoom) of Coutts coming deep, rather than trying to find an attacking position. With Burton getting ten players behind the ball, we have two or three in front of it. This happened too often.

View attachment 16324
View attachment 16325



After 26 minutes Adkins changed it to a 4-2-3-1:


Long

Brayford Edgar Collins McEveley

Coutts Basham

Cuvelier
Done - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Adams
Sharp

This is pretty close to what I wanted. But not quite. I think the tweak in midfield, the inversion of the triangle, was unfortunate. Again we became too weak in midfield.

With Done and Adams inside forwards, encouraged to push forward and support Sharp, and Cuvelier also defending in front of the two other midfielders, we are effectively left with a two man midfield, with one of them unable/unwilling to run and chase. Basham in that position usually ends up doing very little, being two deep to chase and harry (his strength). Instead he just tries to prevent the opposition running straight through us.

So although we had some talent going forward we were unable to get the ball to them in good positions.

Credit to Burton they are very good at what we are poor at. They sprint to cover ground defensively, they gegenpress and generally work so hard for each other.

Here's a situation that looked promising for a second after we strung a couple of passes together:

View attachment 16323
* Cuvelier finally in some space, but a split second later they are all over him like hyenas. He ended up giving them a throw in.

In the second half we conceded the goal and then tried 4-2-4. This gave us more players in advanced positions, but again we had little idea of how to get the ball to them and we just couldn't find any space.


I understand that people are getting fed up with the players, but we haven't established what our playing style is, what this team is going to be good at. We are still asking players to do roles that don't suit them and we struggle to get the balance right and this leads to poor performances.
Have you heard Adkins comments about (paraphrasing) one player refusing, due to ego, to carry out team orders?

If so, who do you think it is?

My money is on Coutts - but that's based on what I think his personality is, rather than any close observation of the game.[/QUOTE. Best system IMO is a 2 5 3.
 
I enjoy your analysis and you always make some excellent points.

I do think too much analysis (not yours by the way) is made of tactics, players positions and also systems.

This United team would get some level of respect simply by running around, winning tackles, tracking runners and leaving everything on the pitch. That means it does not matter who plays where, that is basics of giving everything and putting in maximum effort.

Last night I saw many players just going through the motions. Jogging around when they could have sprinted. Standing off instead of pressing, harrying or tackling and not making a run when we had the ball thus making it impossible to us to move forward as everyone was so static.

In my opinion we have quite a few problems and the result of these are players appearing lazy/disinterested. I think we do have some players that are rather poor at certain aspects of the game (running, for example), and feel it's a bigger problem that they are unable to run than that they are not bothered to run. Especially when these are given roles where running is essential.

When our shape is wrong (back-heavy and weak midfield vs Burton) and we have some liabilities we lose our shape and it gets difficult for those in the team that actually are able and willing to run.

A little clip that shows us struggling with poor tempo and movement on the attack and get hit on the break. We recover (already had many players behind the ball), but then show our midfield's inability to restrict them when they use a bit of width involving their full backs:



With our wing backs occupied by their wingers it is hard to say, who was going to close down their full backs in those situations. That meant we had a problem with our shape and our players' ability to cover ground, not primarily a lack of effort.
 
Bergen Blade whilst I always appreciate your analysis, I think Adkins had a point in his post match interviews about winning individual battles and having that desire to be better than your counterpart. The failure to do that throughout the game was the biggest difference in my opinion.

Meaning he was happy with our shape and organisation (despite his changes during the game)?
 
He has made that point before.

And you can lose your 1v1 for lots of reasons. One is effort. Others include ability, physicality (Akins? their giant left mid?), organisation, fear, etc.


The left midfielder had a 'field day' against 3-5-2, 4-2-3-1 if that's what it was, against any formation.

Fact is Brayford and Coutts were on that side and he had yards of space. Can't remember us decking him, can't remember us pressing him hard and fast, can't remember him being under any pressure, good job he wasn't that good! Can't remember a change of tactics until the 80th minute when we apparently moved over Brayford of all people to snuff out Duffy as it were. "Snuff out Duffy" - Aikens had been the bigger danger with licence to kill us, given the room and space - for example the goal!!
 
In my opinion we have quite a few problems and the result of these are players appearing lazy/disinterested. I think we do have some players that are rather poor at certain aspects of the game (running, for example), and feel it's a bigger problem that they are unable to run than that they are not bothered to run. Especially when these are given roles where running is essential.

When our shape is wrong (back-heavy and weak midfield vs Burton) and we have some liabilities we lose our shape and it gets difficult for those in the team that actually are able and willing to run.

A little clip that shows us struggling with poor tempo and movement on the attack and get hit on the break. We recover (already had many players behind the ball), but then show our midfield's inability to restrict them when they use a bit of width involving their full backs:



With our wing backs occupied by their wingers it is hard to say, who was going to close down their full backs in those situations. That meant we had a problem with our shape and our players' ability to cover ground, not primarily a lack of effort.



What a quote " " I do think we have some players that are poor at certain aspects of the game ( running for example) and feel it's a bigger problem that they are unable to run than....."

Is this a wind-up? No it isn't, it's too bloody true and it includes most of our midfield players. Actually, let's not exaggerate, only one of our midfielders can't actualy run, the others just can't run as fast and as far as the opposition.

Now if there's anything a midfield player ( indeed any footballer) has to be able to do IT IS RUN !! Even kicking the ball straight is secondary; a footballer has to be able to run, even a keeper!!
 
The left midfielder had a 'field day' against 3-5-2, 4-2-3-1 if that's what it was, against any formation.

Fact is Brayford and Coutts were on that side and he had yards of space. Can't remember us decking him, can't remember us pressing him hard and fast, can't remember him being under any pressure, good job he wasn't that good! Can't remember a change of tactics until the 80th minute when we apparently moved over Brayford of all people to snuff out Duffy as it were. "Snuff out Duffy" - Aikens had been the bigger danger with licence to kill us, given the room and space - for example the goal!!

I think one bright note was Baptiste's willingness to take on this challenge.

Vaguely remember him winning a header, all 5'11 of him, and getting a cheer for it.

Next time I think he should bring his studs though. Couldn't stand up most of the game.
 
He said in his post he thinks it is Coutts that was being referred to. :)


Maybe so. I still think it's Done for that reason too and for the reason he is being played way out of his best position, indeed the position in which he made his name and for which we signed him - and in which he does score goals.

Done seems to have a rebellious streak and is often at odds with the bench and his colleagues.
 



Great post as always.

A question though Bergs; do our players lack the attributes to play a high tempo pressing game? We've spent the last 4 years dropping off teams. Is this because we simply lack pace and mobility?

With our original squad of 40+ players I think there were only a handful of combinations that could allow us to play a high tempo pressing game. Maybe you can get away with one of Coutts, Baxter and Hammond, but we've often tried to fit them all into the same team. At other times I think it's our shape, organisation and tactics that has held us back. As mentioned I was quite keen on seeing the first team I listed, but disappointed when I learned that wasn't the way we were set up.
 
Have you heard Adkins comments about (paraphrasing) one player refusing, due to ego, to carry out team orders?

If so, who do you think it is?

My money is on Coutts - but that's based on what I think his personality is, rather than any close observation of the game.

Yes, I also think it was Coutts. Making off the ball runs, getting up and down the pitch, closing down is vital for the role he was given. Coutts kept dropping deep to playmake. After 27 minutes Adkins gave up on him, put him in his favoured role, then subbed him for a youngster after 58 minutes, while also mentioning him post match for his part in us conceding the goal.
 
If you have players who are going through the motions (two-fingering the club and, by the looks of it, trying to get you the sack in the hope of getting a contract out of a new manager) it doesn't really matter what system you play. Its becoming clearer and clearer that there is a toxic problem amongst the playing staff (that was the danger of handing the whole shooting match to Clough - not only do you have to get rid of him, his gobby mate, his brother, Wilkin's brother, but also his players and start from scratch again - not the way forward) and I'm guessing Adkins has shipped some of the players responsible out but I suspect he is still stuck with a number of them as he has to fulfill the league programme and at least look like he is trying to keep in touch with the play-offs. Hopeless, thankless task - season over. Gerrem out, gerrem all out - they insult the club.
 
If you have players who are going through the motions (two-fingering the club and, by the looks of it, trying to get you the sack in the hope of getting a contract out of a new manager) it doesn't really matter what system you play. Its becoming clearer and clearer that there is a toxic problem amongst the playing staff (that was the danger of handing the whole shooting match to Clough - not only do you have to get rid of him, his gobby mate, his brother, Wilkin's brother, but also his players and start from scratch again - not the way forward) and I'm guessing Adkins has shipped some of the players responsible out but I suspect he is still stuck with a number of them as he has to fulfill the league programme and at least look like he is trying to keep in touch with the play-offs. Hopeless, thankless task - season over. Gerrem out, gerrem all out - they insult the club.

I agree that this is a factor probably affecting performances. Adkins surely referred to it when he had to insist "look, it's in the interest of everybody to get this club promoted" (even the ones who'll be gone in a few months). Yes, but...
 
This "know more" stuff is just nonsense.

The rest I genuinely have no idea what it means.

Is there is question in there? If so what is it? Plain English please.
well then stop pretending you do know more.
so you know nothing of the ethics of football then?
 
well then stop pretending you do know more.
so you know nothing of the ethics of football then?

This is just bizarre.

Do you have a question?

Is your question: "Do you know nothing of the ethics of football?" If it is I think the answer would be, "I don't really understand the question" - which should provoke a response, possibly about moral turpitude. :)

If it's not, then what is it?

I ask bc I think I'm being accused (among other things) of failing to answer a question - but it's hard to tell. :confused:
 
Maybe so. I still think it's Done for that reason too and for the reason he is being played way out of his best position, indeed the position in which he made his name and for which we signed him - and in which he does score goals.

Done seems to have a rebellious streak and is often at odds with the bench and his colleagues.

I've often posted against Done (even when he was injured earlier in the season - such are the depths of my depravity), and I'd agree about his randomness, but he really worked his socks off on Tuesday.
 
This is just bizarre.

Do you have a question?

Is your question: "Do you know nothing of the ethics of football?" If it is I think the answer would be, "I don't really understand the question" - which should provoke a response, possibly about moral turpitude. :)

If it's not, then what is it?

I ask bc I think I'm being accused (among other things) of failing to answer a question - but it's hard to tell. :confused:
your attemt to claim you do not understand leads me to believe you have a lack of education or something. I have asked the same question in so many easy to understand ways and you just avoid it or have the above.
I feel sorry for you so we'll leave it there.
 
your attemt to claim you do not understand leads me to believe you have a lack of education or something.

Lack of education. Lack of morals. Lack of understanding.

I have asked the same question in so many easy to understand ways and you just avoid it or have the above.

Really can't parse stuff like this. Sorry. o_O

UTMB
 



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