Bramall Lane

[nopigfansintown]

It's worth noting that United announced plans to remove the kop posts if we stayed in the Prem for one more season. There's an insight into the clubs thinking for you if you want one.They were also looking at a new youth facility before further ground expansion (beyond the posts). Whether that's been put on hold or abandoned due to the best part of 2m being spent on the pitches up there remains to be seen.

If you are looking plainly on ROI as justification for ground expansion you'd do the South before even contemplating the Kop. Side stand seats go for more money, as do the associated hospitality offerings which can be offered to home and away fans or for other events. We've seen what the Lane looks like at a gig - that's your main gig stand £. The seats also regularly fill up at matches and are in demand. The build is also much easier due to the volume of land there - you could do something really special without much bother. Liverpool are doing Anfield Road(their BL end) as a bit of vanity thing, the Main Stand was built first and brought in the real £.

The Kop has egress problems that may one day force the clubs hand. It also has a large number of useless/ semi useless seats. The facilities are a joke for 2022. None of this bothers me, but people are deluding themselves if they think there isn't a constituency of people that this does make or break match day attendance for. We are in a different age to when football was purely working class , white males, who didn't really give a damn.The last few weeks should've underlined this!

I don't really agree you need x years in the Prem argument. If McCabe had that belief we'd have had a lot of Blades locked out. We wouldn't have built Shirecliffe. If you remember the first game in the prem under his Chairmanship, by the way, we gave Liverpool both tiers thinking that all Blades would be ok in the rest of the ground. Weeks before the game it was obvious we'd badly miscalculated.

 

[nopigfansintown]

A massive factor regards PL football is the "floating/ neutral" fan.
When we were in the PL I personally know 4 people who had little interest in football, actually tell me they fancy going to see a live match at Bramall Lane.
They weren't on our database and just wanted to pay for a ticket without jumping through hoops.
So they failed to attend any of our matches matches, meaning LOST revenue and LOSS of a potential future fan.

I know that Leicester City always allowed season tickets holders to purchase extra tickets using their card.
Not sure why United don't do the same instead of asking every single fan to register and in some cases pay an additional membership fee.

Have several similar stories.

 

[SwissBlade]

Football isn’t just about playing games in the biggest sanitised stadia. It’s about getting the sport out to towns and cities and bringing through new generations of fans.

I’m not really fussed about the womens game, haven’t watched a game for years and i watched last nights game as I was at my sisters and they had it on.

The atmosphere sounded terrific and the ground was full of kids, It looked like it was mostly women which is in contrast to Blades games. So not only did it bring a new generation it brought a different demographic.

I’m pretty sure that Chelsea, Man City, Arsenal and Liverpool will all have decent fanbases for their womens teams.

But if the Womens Euros being held at the lane and at Rotherham brings new fans to support the womens teams of those clubs or gets more girls playing football, then good for them.

A reported 9.3million watched on TV and saw a modern but historic ground, filled with noisy fans partying at the final whistle and not an ounce of trouble.

That’s surely more important than holding a game at a big stadium - whether it is full or not.

It also sends a message to police forces that clampdown and insist on fans being segregated or to so called fans that go to games and cause bother… football isn’t the problem, the social problems and treatment of fans are.

 

[Sean Thornton]

I can't believe anybody ever found them intimidating quite frankly

View attachment 140364

Give me a star jumper any day of the week!

 

[Bladeloyal]

They have had new floodlights installed for this coming season.

Gas or pedal power

 

[Rodley]

Safe standing on the Kop, another tier on the South Stand is the route to 40,000. If you’re a corporate entity, you don’t want to be behind one goal, you want to be in the stand with the better view and use of all the existing facilities. Makes sense to consolidate the corporate offer on South Stand and build on the critical mass that is already there. Plus add more seats at the higher price bracket in an additional tier. The Kop is then a cheap fix of converting to safe standing and delivering moderate improvements to toilets and concession stalls. The latter could be done as a Phase 1.

 

[Katzenjammer]

Give me a star jumper any day of the week!

A Sheffield Star jumper with 'Shield 10' emblazoned on the back

 

[JJBlade]

Yeah weird innit. Almost as if attendances fluctuate according to on-field success and have fuck all to do with marketing aimed at day trippers.

Your attitude to Casual fans is stupid. And about typical of what I'd expect on this messageboard.

The thousands that don't go are key to future stadium expansion, not the ones that do.

By your standards everyone going to the games now, who didn't watch us play in front of 6,900 fans in the 80's is a casual fan. The additional 10,000 from our League One days are therefore casual fans, and they should all fuck off.

There are lots of people who genuinely support United, but don't go, for whatever reason, They could be sick, old and don't feel catered for, living away, too young to go alone and parents not interested, pissed off about something, or don't see it as value for money to sit behind a wall or a pole.

Whatever the reason, there is an entire city and region where we have an extremely healthy "casual support"

Casual by the fact that they don't go, but not casual really. Many would go if a genuine Premier League club and facilities where they don't have an inch of piss swimming around their shoes when they go to the toilet can be given to them

 

[Jinxy1966]

Gas or pedal power

Powered by the limitless supply of hot air & baseless guff

 

[Katzenjammer]

Your attitude to Casual fans is stupid. And about typical of what I'd expect on this messageboard.

The thousands that don't go are key to future stadium expansion, not the ones that do.

By your standards everyone going to the games now, who didn't watch us play in front of 6,900 fans in the 80's is a casual fan. The additional 10,000 from our League One days are therefore casual fans, and they should all fuck off.

There are lots of people who genuinely support United, but don't go, for whatever reason, They could be sick, old and don't feel catered for, living away, too young to go alone and parents not interested, pissed off about something, or don't see it as value for money to sit behind a wall or a pole.

Whatever the reason, there is an entire city and region where we have an extremely healthy "casual support"

Casual by the fact that they don't go, but not casual really. Many would go if a genuine Premier League club and facilities where they don't have an inch of piss swimming around their shoes when they go to the toilet can be given to them

Well of course, the thing that was truly keeping the "casual" fans away in the 1980's wasn't being in the 4th division and getting battered at Altrincham, it was the lack of aesthetically pleasing shithouses.

What you really mean is that the club should pander to flakey, fickle, bastards by turning all sterile and Fulhamised. In which case I refer you to my earlier post.

 

[FATTYFOULKE]

The old girl looks great

It's doesn't really need expanding as it is already big enough for us at the minute.

Arguably it isn’t. We have had too many sellouts for home fans in recent years (apart from restricted view and isolated seats) to say that.
Why not plan ahead and have the extra capacity for when it’s needed going forward, instead of waiting and missing out on potential income and prestigious games like last night?

 

[derfblade.3]

 

[JJBlade]

Well of course, the thing that was truly keeping the "casual" fans away in the 1980's wasn't being in the 4th division and getting battered at Altrincham, it was the lack of aesthetically pleasing shithouses.

What you really mean is that the club should pander to flakey, fickle, bastards by turning all sterile and Fulhamised. In which case I refer you to my earlier post.

Well there you go then
You can't have it both ways

Those that stayed away during our crap days are obviously not the loyal, diehard, go through anything type of fan that qualifies as a proper Blade in your eyes.

So by your judgement they are our equivalents of the glory hunters that you seem to hate

It might be a small glory hunt, but it's a glory hunt nonetheless

 

[Katzenjammer]

Well there you go then
You can't have it both ways

Those that stayed away during our crap days are obviously not the loyal, diehard, go through anything type of fan that qualifies as a proper Blade in your eyes.

So by your judgement they are our equivalents of the glory hunters that you seem to hate

It might be a small glory hunt, but it's a glory hunt nonetheless

Correct.

And why you think that this demographic deserves the red carpet treatment ahead of those who actually put the time in is beyond me.

Unless your reasons for staying away are due to personal circumstances, you have no right to breeze in and out every few years when the going is good and start making demands.

 

[Tuns25]

Sunderland. Leicester, Brighton off the top- sure there are others - who arguably built stadia not justified by their crowds in many seasons - but they seemed to have an attitude of actively trying to attract floating and new fans.
We have this bizarre approach of trying to keep them out. Countless stories just from own circle of people fancying going to a game and being put off by the ticketing policy often for games when there was no chance away fans would be buying tickets in our end.

 

[ShropsBlade]

I have been saying the same for years it is always the last few thousand seats that are hardest to sell, netted off seats for segregation, restricted views, only single seats left all make them harder to sell. 90% full is about all we can do if away fans don't travel in numbers. Oh and then there are stupid decisions to give away fans the BLUT. We should aim to hold 40k in the lane it would encourage attendances of 35-40k if we were doing well even at Championship level.

We haven’t got a big enough fan base to get 35-40k

 

[metalblade]

We haven’t got a big enough fan base to get 35-40k

Load o bollocks, small minded thinking like that will see us forever in the lower divisions.

 

[Inter_blade83]

We haven’t got a big enough fan base to get 35-40k

That's not true is it. During both our PL seasons we'd have easily sold 35k HOME tickets for the big 6.

Even when relegated we average 25k+ with the odd sell out at this level, showing we need more seats for bums!

 

[BushBlade]

JP bigging up the Lane during the Germany v France commentary.

 

[SUFCScorecard]

Load o bollocks, small minded thinking like that will see us forever in the lower divisions.

What is important here is the urban area rather than the City boundaries that creates the catchment area for potential fans. See below the urban areas in the UK, and you can see why it is such a challenge to contemplate a much bigger stadium.

The comparison urban areas to Sheffield are Bristol, Leicester, Nottingham and Newcastle. The total capacity of football stadiums in those urban areas are 39,000 (Bristol), 32,000 (Leicester), 51,000 (Nottingham), 52,000 (Newcastle), and 71,000 (Sheffield).

By that standard Sheffield is doing pretty well. With our split city, attempting to go much above 35k would be naive and could result in a diminished atmosphere. Bramall lane is one of the country's very best stadiums right now for fan experience. We should be proud of that, and move very cautiously if we attempt to make changes to it.

1. London – 11,120,000
2. Manchester – 2,747,000
3. Birmingham-Wolverhampton – 2,624,000
4. Leeds-Bradford – 1,903,000
5. Glasgow – 1,264,000
6. Southampton-Portsmouth – 932,000
7. Liverpool – 910,000
8. Newcastle – 820,000
9. Nottingham – 791,000
10. Sheffield – 735,000
11. Bristol – 687,000
12. Belfast – 639,000
13. Leicester – 555,000
14. Edinburgh – 536,000

 

[SUFCScorecard]

..Following on...


The Sheffield area is the home of football and has a unique footballing culture with lots of teams vying for local support. Unfortunately over the years that has meant the region hasn't been able to deliver an elite football team. Compared to peer metro areas, we have significantly more opportunities to go and see professional football. Its unlikely that we would be able to sustain over 35k without consistently being in business end of the PL, and becoming a national team that is supported outside of our region.

The below table has slightly different numbers for population due to a different method, but I was able to identify the clubs in region to illustrate the point.

Metro Area	Clubs	Population (ref)	Total Stadia Capacity	Population/seat
Leeds-Bradford	Leeds, Bradford, Huddersfield, Halifax	2,302,000​	101,000.00	22.79
Liverpool/Birkenhead	Liverpool, Everton, Wigan, Tranmere	2,241,000​	135,000.00	16.60
Tyne and Wear	Newcastle, Sunderland	1,599,000​	101,000.00	15.83
Sheffield	SUFC, SWFC, Rotherham, Donny, Chesterfield, Barnsley	1,569,000​	133,000.00	11.80
Portsmouth/Southampton	Portsmouth Southampton	1,547,000​	53,000.00	29.19
Nottingham/Derby	Forest, Notts County, Derby, Mansfield	1,534,000​	94,000.00	16.32
Cardiff	Cardiff, Newport	1,097,000​	45,000.00	24.38
Bristol	Bristol City, Bristol rovers	1,041,000​	39,000.00	26.69

side note - Leeds really isn't a proper football city (more like Bristol and Cardiff than Sheffield/Newcastle/Liverpool), and don't let their fans tell you it is.

 

[Sheffsteel]

This ^^^^^, the fly in the ointment being the McCabe owned corners, but yeah do it right = do it once, a few years in the Premier league needed rather than a quick fix bodge job knock the bugger down and do it right concourses under cover, the lot.

Not sure you understand.
If all we need is massive concourse, with numerous toilets, bars ALL under cover then that exactly matches the McCabe plan.
There is plenty of room behind the Kop and that is where all the modern facilities would be.

If you prefer to remove the hill and build a stand on flat land then there would be more space than we need.
Surely you're not suggesting more banqueting, executive, conference facilities?

Why would we need to more than quadruple our facilities?
Remember the South stand would be almost tripling our facilities.
Also on a practical level, the South stand would have an underground car park where as the Kop wouldn't have parking facilities.

Another massive facts is COST.
McCabe explained that his plan meant the Kop would remain open and have a slightly reduced capacity for just ONE season.
Your plan is to close the Kop fully for 2 seasons.

It's a dangerous plan to tell season tickets holders they need to stop attending for 2 seasons.
Once they find other things to do, it breaks the habit.....would they return after being away from football for so long?

 

[Inter_blade83]

Not sure you understand.
If all we need is massive concourse, with numerous toilets, bars ALL under cover then that exactly matches the McCabe plan.
There is plenty of room behind the Kop and that is where all the modern facilities would be.

If you prefer to remove the hill and build a stand on flat land then there would be more space than we need.
Surely you're not suggesting more banqueting, executive, conference facilities?

Why would we need to more than quadruple our facilities?
Remember the South stand would be almost tripling our facilities.
Also on a practical level, the South stand would have an underground car park where as the Kop wouldn't have parking facilities.

Another massive facts is COST.
McCabe explained that his plan meant the Kop would remain open and have a slightly reduced capacity for just ONE season.
Your plan is to close the Kop fully for 2 seasons.

It's a dangerous plan to tell season tickets holders they need to stop attending for 2 seasons.
Once they find other things to do, it breaks the habit.....would they return after being away from football for so long?

You can easily fit all ST holders from the kop in the BL end. Move the away fans to the shit corner bit. Use the excuse that it's impossible to offer more tickets than the 900 in there (works for other clubs).

 

[metalblade]

Not sure you understand.
If all we need is massive concourse, with numerous toilets, bars ALL under cover then that exactly matches the McCabe plan.
There is plenty of room behind the Kop and that is where all the modern facilities would be.

If you prefer to remove the hill and build a stand on flat land then there would be more space than we need.
Surely you're not suggesting more banqueting, executive, conference facilities?

Why would we need to more than quadruple our facilities?
Remember the South stand would be almost tripling our facilities.
Also on a practical level, the South stand would have an underground car park where as the Kop wouldn't have parking facilities.

Another massive facts is COST.
McCabe explained that his plan meant the Kop would remain open and have a slightly reduced capacity for just ONE season.
Your plan is to close the Kop fully for 2 seasons.

It's a dangerous plan to tell season tickets holders they need to stop attending for 2 seasons.
Once they find other things to do, it breaks the habit.....would they return after being away from football for so long?

You are letting your imagination run away with you pal........
I never said more executive, banqueting or conference facilities
I never mentioned reducing car parking
I never said close the kop for two seasons

WTF are you on about????

 

[Sheffsteel]

Casual fans are casual fans, if it is difficult to do something that they only have a passing interest in, they won't do it.

I'm not sure where the next generation of fans are going to come from, and how many of today's fans would have ever become fans if they had the restrictions and hoops to jump through that a young kid who's never been before has today.

The one ticket per member bullshit has to stop, it restricts future new memberships and future attendance rather than encouraging it

Really agree with this.

If I want to bring 3 guests to a match.
Surely I should be able to use my season ticket to pay for 3 tickets.
If my 3 guests cause trouble the CCTV will identify their seat and trace it back to me.
I think this is the situation at most clubs....so why are we different?

In the PL there is a massive factor regards floating/ neutral support.
I honestly believe we can pull in 10K casuals per match.....sounds far fetched until you consider
that Fulham had a 6000 capacity stand for neutrals. Also West Ham sell 1000's of season tickets to neutrals ( as they are very cheap).

People underestimate how big the PL is.
When we return to the PL we need to tap into how we can fill a 40K week in week out. Making it easier for casual supporters would be a start.

 

[SouthStandGBlock]

It does need expanding how do you grow as a club if your capacity has reduced over the last 10 years…. Clubs that have expanded and or moved stadiums have ALL increased their attendances.

Leicester have stadium expansion plans to 40,000. In the eighties they got 19,000, now it's 32,000 every week. There definitely is an argument that a larger BL would push the attendances up.

I love BDTBL though, no way I want a new stadium. We have a modern stadium steeped in tradition, and I've yet to hear anyone who hasn't visited say anything other than compliments about the stadium. My friend works for one of the large international beer companies and travels the world attending sporting venues for work. First time he'd been to BDTBL last night, and he sent me a message to say how atmospheric it was and what a great stadium. Even the sausage rolls were top class !!!!! We should be really proud, the stadium is an absolute gem.

 

[ShropsBlade]

Load o bollocks, small minded thinking like that will see us forever in the lower divisions.

It’s not small minded thinking , it’s reality.We struggled to sell out games when sat top 6 in the premier league.We have a very respectable fan base for our clubs success level.We don’t have a fanbase to to sustain an average of 40k though if you like it or not.

I’d like to see the kop modernised but a big extension isn’t necessary.

 

[cahill]

..Following on...


The Sheffield area is the home of football and has a unique footballing culture with lots of teams vying for local support. Unfortunately over the years that has meant the region hasn't been able to deliver an elite football team. Compared to peer metro areas, we have significantly more opportunities to go and see professional football. Its unlikely that we would be able to sustain over 35k without consistently being in business end of the PL, and becoming a national team that is supported outside of our region.

The below table has slightly different numbers for population due to a different method, but I was able to identify the clubs in region to illustrate the point.

Metro Area	Clubs	Population (ref)	Total Stadia Capacity	Population/seat
Leeds-Bradford	Leeds, Bradford, Huddersfield, Halifax	2,302,000​	101,000.00	22.79
Liverpool/Birkenhead	Liverpool, Everton, Wigan, Tranmere	2,241,000​	135,000.00	16.60
Tyne and Wear	Newcastle, Sunderland	1,599,000​	101,000.00	15.83
Sheffield	SUFC, SWFC, Rotherham, Donny, Chesterfield, Barnsley	1,569,000​	133,000.00	11.80
Portsmouth/Southampton	Portsmouth Southampton	1,547,000​	53,000.00	29.19
Nottingham/Derby	Forest, Notts County, Derby, Mansfield	1,534,000​	94,000.00	16.32
Cardiff	Cardiff, Newport	1,097,000​	45,000.00	24.38
Bristol	Bristol City, Bristol rovers	1,041,000​	39,000.00	26.69

side note - Leeds really isn't a proper football city (more like Bristol and Cardiff than Sheffield/Newcastle/Liverpool), and don't let their fans tell you it is.

Good post, love this subject. A tiny observation, but I’d say Wigan is Greater Manchester

 

[ShropsBlade]

Really agree with this.

If I want to bring 3 guests to a match.
Surely I should be able to use my season ticket to pay for 3 tickets.
If my 3 guests cause trouble the CCTV will identify their seat and trace it back to me.
I think this is the situation at most clubs....so why are we different?

In the PL there is a massive factor regards floating/ neutral support.
I honestly believe we can pull in 10K casuals per match.....sounds far fetched until you consider
that Fulham had a 6000 capacity stand for neutrals. Also West Ham sell 1000's of season tickets to neutrals ( as they are very cheap).

People underestimate how big the PL is.
When we return to the PL we need to tap into how we can fill a 40K week in week out. Making it easier for casual supporters would be a start.

Simply not that easy.Man city win trophies every season and had a bigger fan base than us before the Middle Eastern money.Yet they still struggle to fill the ground up.

 

[SUFCScorecard]

Good post, love this subject. A tiny observation, but I’d say Wigan is Greater Manchester

I have a friend from Wigan who would agree (and is a Man utd fan), and we love winding him up that hes a scouser. Per (ref), however, wigan was included in the Liverpool metro. I don't think it changes the analysis though.

FWIW, Manchester is the only place (in Europe I suspect - Barcelona 35 seats per pop) that comes close, with 12 seats per population in the metro. But they also have 2 global footballing brands in their city.

Yet again - another reason Sheffield should stop dropping the ball make more of its footballing heritage.