Blades Against Racism

[Linz]

I haven't read the full thread but getting back to the initial point, I think one of the issues is around stewarding of football.

If clubs want to tackle problems in the stands, this is where investment can and would make a difference. Rather than some students on minimum wage who turn a blind eye because they won't get paid overtime for the paperwork, there ought to be properly paid (and dare I say it) more "handy" security staff who will wade into a crowd and pluck out the undesirables.

The Kick it Out app works (as Foxy mentioned earlier in the thread) but retrospectively. A more proactive approach would be every Club having a text number so that issues can be reported there and then. They could have plain clothes staff dispatched to catch people bang to rights then the perpetrators issued with a hefty ban.

You're never going to change a person's mind if they are racist. But you can make it clear that football grounds aren't to be used as a platform for their hatred.

 

[metalblade]

The way forward

 

[Ball_Sup (Phil)]

I don't think anyone is "raging & frothing about Black Lives Matter". There are plenty of worthy causes in the UK and anti racism is certainly one of them. But, it seems, we can't have an intelligent debate about whether taking the knee before every game, getting rid of names on shirts in favour of the phrase, "Black Lives Matter" etc etc is perhaps a little disproportionate.




Your attempt to depict this debate as an "us and them" scenario is divisive. It implies that we either wholeheartedly support taking the knee, getting rid of names on shirts etc, or we oppose BLM and are thus "part of the problem" (in other words we support the racists).

Seriously, neither JOC or any other player is going to refuse to take the knee or object to his name being removed from his shirt to make a point of principle on gesture politics that is unrelated to racism. In the current climate, he would risk being accused of not supporting Black Lives Matter and crucified on social media. It would be akin to not wearing the poppy.

The BLM "manifesto" is quite radical and doesn't only deal with racism, which is an important point. But more than that, it's the idea that supporting worthy causes (in this case anti racism) should have such a visible impact on our game, week after week, and no one is seemingly allowed to question it all.

I'll take that Dkc I understand why you feel some of my arguments appear divisive. I understand why you feel I might be accusing people of being part of the problem. I even understand why you feel I might be suggesting people support the Racists. I understand that. It's tricky. I've tried to be very careful, but blunt. I haven't used those part of the problem, you're a racist phrases. But, I understand where you're coming from. I didn't start this, the players did, I support the players (on this stance). I'm sorry. I apologise. I'm not pointing and shouting racist. And, by saying I support the players wearing the Logo, I don't take accusations that I must be a Marxist all that seriously.

 

[ChrisBlade]

So to give an interim summary of the drift of the discussion: We all started from the common position that racism sucks and needs being tackled and we all agreed that now is a good moment to discuss how we go about it. Only to then quickly find that racism as such may involve tons of potentially tricky grey areas where some or all of us may well have to question themselves rather than just "the racist" scum?

Before seeing the whole thing quickly polarized into - excuse my pun - a convenient black and white view of useless leftist gesturing of sinister Marxist movement versus no movement or sentiment is ever defined by its lunatic fringe by inter alia Pommpey's famously colourful (but in this context possibly unhelpful?) verbal stylings?

Good going.

 

[Dkc]

BTW this "philosophical" debate is touching on what might be described as "politics" so I would urge everyone to play nice, and not resort to name calling, personal insults, or pushing political agendas. Remember that the mods have asked us not to discuss politics on here because such discussions often degenerate quickly.

I do think such questions as "does racisim exist at the Lane?" and "should we get rid of names of our players on shirts for a popular cause?" are relevant to our club and can in theory be debated intelligently

 

[pommpey]

You're never going to change a person's mind if they are racist. But you can make it clear that football grounds aren't to be used as a platform for their hatred.

Amen.

Our sport is a place where everyone comes together on the pitch regardless of ethnic background and displays how the true nature of diversity works. Unity in diversity.

A brilliant oxymoron, and one which is relevant in every part of our lives.

As you say, the paradigm shift is getting (normally pissed up) individuals out of the stands and out of the ground and stopping the passing lanes they use on the internet.

The final act is actively pursuing and dismantling of the groups and collectives who promote this stain on human behaviour.

pommpey

 

[Ball_Sup (Phil)]

The BLM movement supports tearing down statues.

I get it. We're not far apart. Jack O'Connell wears a BLM logo. You claim the BLM Movement supports tearing down statues. Neither you nor I believe Jack O'Connell will tear down a statue himself. The Logo & the Statues are a big jump for me.

 

[pommpey]

Pommpey's famously colourful (but in this context possibly unhelpful?) verbal stylings?

In what way 'unhelpful'? I have stated my position, and hopefully explained why. I haven't arrived at this state of understanding apropos of nothing and by default. I have looked at all sides of the case, which I do with General and Local elections, Brexit and other potentially paradigm-shifting issues.

I don't know how more helpful I can be.

pommpey

 

[Nicolaus_Copernicus]

I spotted that study. I wasn't sure that it demonstrated subconscious racism on the part of commentators and whether it demonstrated any relevance to the perceived lack of black managers in the top divisions. I thought maybe commentators were describing certain players as being pacy and powerful because they are.

It is obvious that we have lots of players in the PL whose origins are different. Apart from the obvious skin tone differences, there are other physical differences between players. Players with Asian origins, for example, tend not to be as tall and stocky as Scandinavian players, who tend to be tall and strong. Spanish and Italian players tend to be slightly shorter and less stocky. There are exceptions, but it is a fact that people of different origins tend to have physical differences.

Sportsmen with origins in West Africa - Nigeria, Ivory Coast, Cameroon, Ghana etc - are often tall, strong and fast. It's a fact. Think Pogba, Antonio, Balotelli, Drogba. However, such traits cannot and are not applied to all "black" players. If a player's origins are from East Africa, they are often physically shorter and not as stocky. They are thus less likely to be described as "powerful" or "aggressive".

A lot of British and French players with origins in West Africa are playing in our top divisions, as well as players from West Africa itself. And most who become pros do tend to be tall and stocky, with pace and power. Saying this isn't racism, it's a fact. Obviously it doesn't apply to all players with origins in W Africa, but the fastest, toughest players will be in demand regardless of skin tone, as such traits are condusive to being a good footballer

Certainly, not all white players are "intelligent" or are described that way. If a player makes an intelligent pass it is described as such regardless of his skin tone. And if a player is fast and powerful, that's how he is described.

The fact is that we have many black players in the English leagues that are tall and powerful. Should they not be described as such if they are?

I read the article at the time, and felt that the area of research had perhaps missed a trick.

It appeared to note words and phrases used purely in relation to skin colour, and I would've been interested to have learned about the possible presence of racial bias (whether conscious or sub conscious) regarding players of the same physical characteristics, playing positions & skill sets, but of different skin colour (such as comparison of Billy Sharp and Jermaine Defoe), same skin colour, different physical characteristics and skill sets, but the same playing positions (such as Billy Sharp and McBurnie) & same skin colour, and same physical characteristics, different playing position & different skill sets (such as Billy Sharp and David Silva).

I should add 'roughly the same' for all classifications.

 

[Flatulent_Bob]

I haven't read the full thread but getting back to the initial point, I think one of the issues is around stewarding of football.

If clubs want to tackle problems in the stands, this is where investment can and would make a difference. Rather than some students on minimum wage who turn a blind eye because they won't get paid overtime for the paperwork, there ought to be properly paid (and dare I say it) more "handy" security staff who will wade into a crowd and pluck out the undesirables.

The Kick it Out app works (as Foxy mentioned earlier in the thread) but retrospectively. A more proactive approach would be every Club having a text number so that issues can be reported there and then. They could have plain clothes staff dispatched to catch people bang to rights then the perpetrators issued with a hefty ban.

You're never going to change a person's mind if they are racist. But you can make it clear that football grounds aren't to be used as a platform for their hatred.

I get that it’s extra dev work, but the club should also develop a members app anyway that links with your membership account. It would be a handy tool especially if you can order tickets through it, view social media stuff etc but I digress. If it’s liked to your membership it knows where you are sat from your ticket even if you’re not a ST holder, so If it had a tab for BAR/Kick it out you could just select it and a steward could position themselves in the area as you suggest. It could have all sorts of other data on there allowing you to write a report when away from the match or any other such things to help the club weed it out. Because it knows your location it will allow them to increase stewarding where it’s needed and it relatively easy to do.

 

[pommpey]

I get it. We're not far apart. Jack O'Connell wears a BLM logo. You claim the BLM Movement supports tearing down statues. Neither you nor I believe Jack O'Connell will tear down a statue himself. The Logo & the Statues are a big jump for me.

Which is why it is wrong he wears the badge and takes the knee.

As said (and no one has replied) if the English Defence League or National Front said they supported Cancer Research, would you stand erect, click your heels and smash out a Nazi salute? Would you expect O'Connell to wear their insignia on the kit?

No. I would be fucking appalled and disappointed and support another cancer charity and god forbid, another football team, one which doesn't want a tyrannical right wing regime hand in glove with a trojan hose of medical treatment.

pommpey

 

[Dkc]

I'll take that Dkc I didn't start this, the players did

I don't think you can say that "the players" started it as such. Troy Deeney was a big advocate, and as captain of Watford he was present at a meeting of PL club captains where they agreed to adopt the policy. Not sure how many, if any club captains were against it, but each club was represented at the meeting by a single player.

 

[raul]

Sorry, have I logged into Blades For racism by mistake??

 

[de g.]

The BLM "manifesto" is quite radical and doesn't only deal with racism, which is an important point. But more than that, it's the idea that supporting worthy causes (in this case anti racism) should have such a visible impact on our game, week after week, and no one is seemingly allowed to question it all.

As it applies in the UK, there is no Black Lives Matter 'manifesto' beyond 'Fuck this shit, something needs to be done', on which there is broad agreement.

Frankly, and this will I'm sure make me no fans - most of the anti-BLM sentiment expressed on here and elsewhere is, in and of itself, racist. Instead of addressing the issues that underpin the need for a movement, it is seeking to constrain the movement into an 'acceptable' framework. "You can be BLM, but don't be Marxist." "You can be BLM, but don't force us to have to see the demonstrations of support." "You can be BLM, but don't advance arguments I don't agree with." "BLM, but not if that affects me."

It all boils down to, "You can have your little protest, but we tell you how you can do it". We've had 187 years since slavery was abolished in the UK and its territories, 44 years since the passage of the Race Relations Act, and those/we who hold power in the UK have failed to create a society where we don't need to say "black lives matter". Thinking that you have the right to control or direct how black people think, act and advocate for their rights is prima facie white supremacy.

Anti-racism isn't a 'worthy cause', it is a structural stain on our society and one that all of football, including fans, should be proud to stand against because to do the opposite is to support the structures which make our friends, our fellow blades and football fans of all persuasions feel less human. Don't like it? Fine. But that makes you a racist, and part of the problem.

</rant>

 

[Barney]

Sorry, have I logged into Blades For racism by mistake??

Literally everybody on this thread is against racism (unless I've missed any posts).

So don't be daft.

It's how we solve it that is the tricky and divisive part.

 

[Ball_Sup (Phil)]

Which is why it is wrong he wears the badge and takes the knee.

As said (and no one has replied) if the English Defence League or National Front said they supported Cancer Research, would you stand erect, click your heels and smash out a Nazi salute? Would you expect O'Connel to wear their insignia on the kit?

No. I would be fucking appalled and disappointed and support another cancer charity and gof orbid, another football team, one which doesn't want a tyrannical right wing regime hand in glove with a trojan hose of medical treatment.

pommpey

As you know, I like your simple "O'Connell is wrong" approach. And, fuck it, I don't mind sticking my neck out - I bet the EDL do support Cancer Research.

 

[S64 Blade]

I think it’s just some players saying “please don’t be racist”. I’m not sure Didzy has a well thumbed copy of Das Kapital in his glovebox. I think most just view it as that and are wholly supportive.

Rodley, I think you're seriously overlooking the reason why Didzy has that beard...

He quite clearly wants to be Karl Marx.

 

[Worksop II]

Fine. But that makes you a racist, and part of the problem.

and there we are ......

 

[de g.]

You're never going to change a person's mind if they are racist. But you can make it clear that football grounds aren't to be used as a platform for their hatred.

You might not easily change an individual's mind, but I think generally people's minds can be changed, although it takes time.

As I said in my initial post on (page 7 of the thread I think), the club could invest time, money and goodwill in developing and implementing a long-term equality strategy which I think would have the effect of changing minds. For example, the club could not just perma-ban people who start idiotic racist chants; instead, if they want to return to the ground they should be required to take part in some kind of reconciliation workshop where they are asked to confront both the implication and the impact of their behaviour (similar to, for example, speed awareness courses).

 

[west_yorks_blade]

Literally everybody on this thread is against racism (unless I've missed any posts).

So don't be daft.

It's how we solve it that is the tricky and divisive part.

Spot on and it’s a debate, an exchange of views which seems perfectly reasonable on a forum.

What isn’t reasonable is people trying to shut it down because they are right and if you don’t agree you are a racist or a radical Marxist. Most of us are shades of grey in between.

 

[de g.]

Literally everybody on this thread is against racism (unless I've missed any posts).

So don't be daft.

It's how we solve it that is the tricky and divisive part.

Literally everyone on this thread isn't against racism.

Some people are against racism in all forms and recognise that it is a structural issue in society that needs to change.

Some people claim to be against racism, but only if that anti-racism is done in the right way and as long as it doesn't force them to confront it.

Some people claim to be against racism in theory, but can't or won't acknowledge that it exists and when it is pointed out to them employ whataboutery and other such fallacial arguments to justify their rejection of the premise.

The first step to solving it is getting everyone to recognise and admit a) racism exists, both overtly and structurally, and b) that it is everyone's responsibility to end it. Once we get to there, then it's a lot less tricky and divisive because we can have a dispassionate debate on what measures will work.

 

[Linz]

Again, trying to get this back on track.

The issue I have with this, and the reason we have not been forthcoming, is because, however well intentioned, a lot of the noise is white people making it all about them.

I would like to hear and be able to champion the voices of BAME Blades who are affected.

This ought to be where a strong, democratic and representative supporters' club stands up and acts for its fanbase. But we don't have that.

 

[de g.]

and there we are ......

Absolutely. So, are you part of the problem, or part of the solution?

 

[Rodley]

Rodley, I think you're seriously overlooking the reason why Didzy has that beard...

He quite clearly wants to be Karl Marx.

Please don’t pull us down the rabbithole of Marxism, BLM and statues again yer bugger...

 

[Rodley]

Again, trying to get this back on track.

The issue I have with this, and the reason we have not been forthcoming, is because, however well intentioned, a lot of the noise is white people making it all about them.

I would like to hear and be able to champion the voices of BAME Blades who are affected.

This ought to be where a strong, democratic and representative supporters' club stands up and acts for its fanbase. But we don't have that.

Sounds like Steve Mackan is on it Linz. First steps being taken but it’s a long journey.

 

[Ball_Sup (Phil)]

Can I plug the work of the marvelous Bangla Bantams

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-47...ringing-inclusivity-and-diversity-to-the-game

 

[metalblade]

Don't like it? Fine. But that makes you a racist, and part of the problem.

</rant>

Is that straight out of the Momentum book of claptrap?

 

[Dkc]

As it applies in the UK, there is no Black Lives Matter 'manifesto' beyond 'Fuck this shit, something needs to be done', on which there is broad agreement.

It's a global movement. This is what they stand for - https://blacklivesmatter.com/what-we-believe/

Most of the anti-BLM sentiment expressed on here and elsewhere is, in and of itself, racist. Instead of addressing the issues that underpin the need for a movement, it is seeking to constrain the movement into an 'acceptable' framework.

See the link above. Are you saying that you are racist if you oppose racism but also oppose tearning down statues or " disrupt(ing) the Western-prescribed nuclear family structure"?

Thinking that you have the right to control or direct how black people think, act and advocate for their rights is prima facie white supremacy.

The vast majority on the marches are white. And who in this discussion is a white supremecist who is trying to "control or direct how black people think, act and advocate for their rights"? I think everyone supports these rights.

Anti-racism isn't a 'worthy cause', it is a structural stain on our society and one that all of football, including fans, should be proud to stand against

Don't you mean that racism is a structural stain on society?

because to do the opposite is to support the structures which make our friends, our fellow blades and football fans of all persuasions feel less human. Don't like it? Fine. But that makes you a racist, and part of the problem.

No one is against anti-racism. But once again, you are saying that if you don't show unquestioning support for the BLM movement, and its dodgy manifesto, then you are a racist.

As a veteran Anti Nazi League activist who fought with my fists with real dyed in the wool Nazis in London and Sheffield in the 1980's, I'm not sure you have the right to call me a racist.

 

[Ball_Sup (Phil)]

Literally everyone on this thread isn't against racism.

Some people are against racism in all forms and recognise that it is a structural issue in society that needs to change.

Some people claim to be against racism, but only if that anti-racism is done in the right way and as long as it doesn't force them to confront it.

Some people claim to be against racism in theory, but can't or won't acknowledge that it exists and when it is pointed out to them employ whataboutery and other such fallacial arguments to justify their rejection of the premise.

The first step to solving it is getting everyone to recognise and admit a) racism exists, both overtly and structurally, and b) that it is everyone's responsibility to end it. Once we get to there, then it's a lot less tricky and divisive because we can have a dispassionate debate on what measures will work.

Legit Proposal - all EPL players to wear...

End Racism That Other Way

Logos on their shirts

 

[pommpey]

As it applies in the UK, there is no Black Lives Matter 'manifesto' beyond 'Fuck this shit, something needs to be done', on which there is broad agreement.

'something needs to be done'

Frankly, and this will I'm sure make me no fans - most of the anti-BLM sentiment expressed on here and elsewhere is, in and of itself, racist.

Yeah, you're right. And FYI if you think I am racist because I don't clap players ineffectively getting down on one knee, raising their fists and wearing a Marxist logo then you can go fuck yourself. This isn't stupidly binary as you would like it to be. And for that, I ask you what you have ACTIVELY done to disassemble racism in your home, workplace and places of leisure. I'm in the Armed Forces, and over forty one years of service have been involved in a lot of initiatives and courses, had people of other origins working for me and worked for and actively shut people down whenever I have heard or seen racism, even vague 'banter'. So be careful.

Instead of addressing the issues that underpin the need for a movement, it is seeking to constrain the movement into an 'acceptable' framework. "You can be BLM, but don't be Marxist." "You can be BLM, but don't force us to have to see the demonstrations of support." "You can be BLM, but don't advance arguments I don't agree with." "BLM, but not if that affects me."

Or how about 'I support any anti-racist movement, as long as it is depoliticised'?

It all boils down to, "You can have your little protest, but we tell you how you can do it". We've had 187 years since slavery was abolished in the UK and its territories, 44 years since the passage of the Race Relations Act, and those/we who hold power in the UK have failed to create a society where we don't need to say "black lives matter". Thinking that you have the right to control or direct how black people think, act and advocate for their rights is prima facie white supremacy.

What a crock. Are you saying this nation, in fact this planet, is more racist than it was three hundred, or even thirty years ago? Forgive my craven white privilege, but as a target of a raft of policy regarding race relations (because, despite wholesale tribal and national genocide, ethnic cleansing, slavery and brutality happening RIGHT NOW elsewhere in the world, us western white folk are still the guilty bastards) I can say that awareness has been raised several levels. Speak to schoolkids, why don't you?

Anti-racism isn't a 'worthy cause', it is a structural stain on our society and one that all of football, including fans, should be proud to stand against because to do the opposite is to support the structures which make our friends, our fellow blades and football fans of all persuasions feel less human. Don't like it? Fine. But that makes you a racist, and part of the problem.

To be pedantic, 'racism' is the problem, not 'anti-racism'. And it is grossly unfair for you to judge people as not picking up the rope and pulling, because they have issues with a wider policy principle behind the likes of 'Black Lives Matter'. Whilst you may want to label us 'racists' apropos of nothing, by association, if you support BLM, you want anarchy, a destruction of law and order and your wealth and attributes removed to be redistributed by 'the state'. Good luck with that.

pommpey