Big Sam's 'Tevez' perspective

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Pinchy said:
Warnock failed to sign a single player of genuine Premiership Quality. He wasn't allowed to spend a great deal but what he had, he wasted on players who were simply not good enough. The cumulative total would have been far better used on one or two who were comfortable at the top level.

Ten points clear of relegation and looking safe. Warnock and McCabe, in equal measure, failed to grasp the most golden opportunity the club has ever had.

He has, in several attempts, never managed to keep a team in the top division. Yes, wholly out of his depth.
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By "several attempts" you actually mean two attempts?
Both with teams who he worked a miracle to get promoted in the first place?
Both who were red-hot favourites to go straight back down.
Both who had wage bills that would suggest relegation was a probable outcome?
Would Alex Ferguson be out of his depth if he failed to keep Notts County up on a shoestring?

QPR weren't in the bottom three when he was sacked from there and they weren't relegated that season.
You can call more accurately call Redknapp and Hughes wholly out of their depth with QPR instead if you like.
 

So many 'what ifs' on this thread. What if Gerrards pen wasnt given, What if we scored 1 of 2 pens against Blackburn, what if Heinze was sent off in the away game at Old trafford, What if Hulse hadnt broke his leg, What if Manure had bothered to turn up against West Sham, what if Jags hadnt played volleyball, what if what if what if!

In many ways it was an unlucky season, really unlucky. Much like our last min relegation from the Prem in controversial circumstances when Everton stayed up (remember Segers goalkeeping/allegations of match fixing?). Warnock was really unlucky and did really well at Palace in a really tough situation, then got QPR promoted so I think is a decent manager, tho maybe not in the Prem (Albeit he was poor at Weeds). We got compensation from WH eventually and came out a more hated club because of it. Of course other teams would have done the same thing, we would be the same as West Sham fans if we were in their position, ie moaning that we they were sore losers. We should look to the future not the past, starting with getting out of this crap league and onwards back to the Prem.
 
Gavlar said:
We got compensation from WH eventually and came out a more hated club because of it. Of course other teams would have done the same thing, we would be the same as West Sham fans if we were in their position, ie moaning that we they were sore losers. We should look to the future not the past, starting with getting out of this crap league and onwards back to the Prem.
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No, I bloody wouldn`t.
 
SellyOakBlade said:
No, I bloody wouldn`t.
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Well you might be the only one then mate :eek:)

We all like to think we're better than other fans but really we're pretty similar, we have our clubs interest at heart and dont really care about anyone else. Its like family, we stick up for them through thin and more thin!
 
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Whatever the rights or wrongs of the decisions over points deductions and fines at the time, what happened with Tevez is NOT the reason for both clubs current league positions. West Ham have new owners, new manager and one remaining player since then. More importantly they have been relegated since then and managed promotion despite the financial impediment of paying off the fine. No point it keep saying cheating pays, it didn't the Hammers just managed to bounce back from relegation.

As for the Blades? Well they had the opportunity provided by both the parachute payments and the fine money and failed to use it.

I don't know the reason the two teams now find themselves where they now are, but I'm certain as this distance it's nonsense to credit or blame Tevez anymore.
 
A sane Hammers fan. said:
Whatever the rights or wrongs of the decisions over points deductions and fines at the time, what happened with Tevez is NOT the reason for both clubs current league positions. West Ham have new owners, new manager and one remaining player since then. More importantly they have been relegated since then and managed promotion despite the financial impediment of paying off the fine. No point it keep saying cheating pays, it didn't the Hammers just managed to bounce back from relegation.

As for the Blades? Well they had the opportunity provided by both the parachute payments and the fine money and failed to use it.

I don't know the reason the two teams now find themselves where they now are, but I'm certain as this distance it's nonsense to credit or blame Tevez anymore.
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I don't and never did see it as being either Tevez or Macherano's fault in the first place.
They just did their jobs.
It was the board of west ham/the agent and the weak premier league and FA boards with the impartial Trevor Brooking who I was most agreaved at at the time.
Now though, I couldn't give a shit as it's not going to change.
Just hope we win tonight and I'd be the same if we were playing any of the other teams so in the competition.
 
A sane Hammers fan. said:
Whatever the rights or wrongs of the decisions over points deductions and fines at the time, what happened with Tevez is NOT the reason for both clubs current league positions. West Ham have new owners, new manager and one remaining player since then. More importantly they have been relegated since then and managed promotion despite the financial impediment of paying off the fine. No point it keep saying cheating pays, it didn't the Hammers just managed to bounce back from relegation.

As for the Blades? Well they had the opportunity provided by both the parachute payments and the fine money and failed to use it.

I don't know the reason the two teams now find themselves where they now are, but I'm certain as this distance it's nonsense to credit or blame Tevez anymore.
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No one blames tevez most dont even blame west ham
Its the premierleague and a certain mr scudamore we are pissed off at

West ham got away with murder , even after they were punished they carried on playing tevez with the illegal agreement in place

We are being painted as the bad guys in all this by your cock end fans like sam delaney and fat martin samuels who have absoloutely no idea what they are talking about
 
A sane Hammers fan. said:
Whatever the rights or wrongs of the decisions over points deductions and fines at the time, what happened with Tevez is NOT the reason for both clubs current league positions. West Ham have new owners, new manager and one remaining player since then. More importantly they have been relegated since then and managed promotion despite the financial impediment of paying off the fine. No point it keep saying cheating pays, it didn't the Hammers just managed to bounce back from relegation.

As for the Blades? Well they had the opportunity provided by both the parachute payments and the fine money and failed to use it.

I don't know the reason the two teams now find themselves where they now are, but I'm certain as this distance it's nonsense to credit or blame Tevez anymore.
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Well fucking said.Iv'e been trying to tell a lot of ours to move on because nothing is going to change.And you're right,we had amples of oppurtunity to get back to the prem but we fucked it up,pure and simple.
 
A sane Hammers fan. said:
Whatever the rights or wrongs of the decisions over points deductions and fines at the time, what happened with Tevez is NOT the reason for both clubs current league positions. West Ham have new owners, new manager and one remaining player since then. More importantly they have been relegated since then and managed promotion despite the financial impediment of paying off the fine. No point it keep saying cheating pays, it didn't the Hammers just managed to bounce back from relegation.

As for the Blades? Well they had the opportunity provided by both the parachute payments and the fine money and failed to use it.

I don't know the reason the two teams now find themselves where they now are, but I'm certain as this distance it's nonsense to credit or blame Tevez anymore.
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Fair that. I wouldn't worry too much about it, we have this thread every few months and everybody says what they said previously then we get onto bickering about Warnock.

Let's get it over with and move on.
 
A sane Hammers fan. said:
I don't know the reason the two teams now find themselves where they now are, but I'm certain as this distance it's nonsense to credit or blame Tevez anymore.
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I'm taking this by "Blame Tevez anymore" you mean blaming the Tevez affair rather than Tevez as an individual?
 
Sothall_Blade said:
So what Warnock actually needed to do was persuade an experienced Premiership goalscoring target man to sit on our bench as "cover for Hulse", while earning Championship level wages. Maybe that wasn't actually possible or realistic, so he signed Stead as a potential partner/cover for Hulse instead?
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Or he could have inserted a recall clause in Horsfield's loan move(i.e use his common sense). Indeed,he could have brought a striker in as competition for Hulse (Stead was brought in to play along side Hulse,not replace him)

I would suggest that £4million might have bought Henderson at the time
 
For what it's worth I think we avoided a points deduction because the league thought we were already down and it would effectively not have been any punishment. By the time that proved wrong it was to late to change the verdict. I know plenty of Hammers fans who were upset at the £5.5m fine and would have preferred points taken off as looking at the fixtures remaining were convinced relegation was inevitable.
 
My tuppence:

West Ham broke the rules.

The Premier League bottled dishing out the appropriate punishment - probably as they believed, as A sane Hammers fan. says, that West Ham were as good as relegated. They then turned a blind eye to the fact that Tevéz' registration still wasn't legitimate.

United were awful in those last two games and Warnock got his priorities all wrong in the week leading up to Wigan - letting his ego take over.

We rightly pursued the case using every available option.

We then pissed that £25m plus the parachute payments (£16m?) up every available wall, employing shit managers and average footballers on salaries far in excess of their abilities.

We then got relegated again as the team imploded and have bumbled around in League One making the same mistakes as we did in the Championship (employing average footballers on relatively big salaries).

I'm hoping that the tide has turned with this summer's business (the majority of the players signed should improve - only Butler, Davies and Higdon are 30+ and two of those were free)
 

Balham Blade said:
My tuppence:

West Ham broke the rules.

The Premier League bottled dishing out the appropriate punishment - probably as they believed, as A sane Hammers fan. says, that West Ham were as good as relegated. They then turned a blind eye to the fact that Tevéz' registration still wasn't legitimate.

United were awful in those last two games and Warnock got his priorities all wrong in the week leading up to Wigan - letting his ego take over.

We rightly pursued the case using every available option.

We then pissed that £25m plus the parachute payments (£16m?) up every available wall, employing shit managers and average footballers on salaries far in excess of their abilities.

We then got relegated again as the team imploded and have bumbled around in League One making the same mistakes as we did in the Championship (employing average footballers on relatively big salaries).


I'm hoping that the tide has turned with this summer's business (the majority of the players signed should improve - only Butler, Davies and Higdon are 30+ and two of those were free)
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The sane Hammer (a rare breed indeed) is absolutely right. That is precisely why the tribunal ruled as it did. It now regrets it's judgement and would have deducted points if it only knew...

Don't ask, just trust me...
 
A sane Hammers fan. said:
For what it's worth I think we avoided a points deduction because the league thought we were already down and it would effectively not have been any punishment. By the time that proved wrong it was to late to change the verdict. I know plenty of Hammers fans who were upset at the £5.5m fine and would have preferred points taken off as looking at the fixtures remaining were convinced relegation was inevitable.
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I heard the same. In fact I heard that PL officials told Wigan they were desperate for them to beat West Ham on the penultimate weekend, which would have relegated West Ham. Of course Wigan lost 3-0, mainly thanks to a strong display from Tevez and a spineless performance from Wigan.
 
Revolution said:
I heard the same. In fact I heard that PL officials told Wigan they were desperate for them to beat West Ham on the penultimate weekend, which would have relegated West Ham. Of course Wigan lost 3-0, mainly thanks to a strong display from Tevez and a spineless performance from Wigan.
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But, of course, if Tevez had knocked in another 1 that would have kept us up, which would have been ironic....

EDit: actually he would have needed two: a 4-0 win for WHU would have meant a one goal win for Wigan at the Lane would have kept them up on goals scored.
 
Revolution said:
I heard the same. In fact I heard that PL officials told Wigan they were desperate for them to beat West Ham on the penultimate weekend, which would have relegated West Ham. Of course Wigan lost 3-0, mainly thanks to a strong display from Tevez and a spineless performance from Wigan.
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It easnt the pe ulitmate game of the season it was the day after they fined west ham and gave their reasons
Main one not wanting to upset their fans
Gave the hammers a terrific boost and basically set them up for a survival bid when they were all but down


My main gripe is that the evidence uncovered at the tribunal that west ham were still playing tevez illegally was never acted upon even after that pile of spunk scudamore insisted he would

Funny that
 
judge said:
My main gripe is that the evidence uncovered at the tribunal that west ham were still playing tevez illegally was never acted upon even after that pile of spunk scudamore insisted he would
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That's still what irks me the most about it all. Why the hell was Tevez allowed to keep playing once all this was out? I recall some sort of fax being waved around saying 'yep 3rd party control has been voided, honest guv', but then highly sought after international class player supposedly under contract with 'Stam with no 3rd party control goes to Man U for an absolute pittance when it would have been 30 million or so if he was 'properly' contracted to West Ham.

Never heard that issue being resolved satisfactorily, I assume the shredded paperwork relating to it is under a shagpile in Scudamore's office, with some furniture on top.
 
The problem continues for the Premier League as I now think they make stuff up as they go along.

Sunderland last seson for example got done for fielding an illegable player and were fined. The rest of the Premier League clubs found out like 4 months later.

The Premier League are a joke and the sooner they get their house in order along with the FA and FIFA the better it will be for the fans of every club.
 
ZoneManWilf said:
That's still what irks me the most about it all. Why the hell was Tevez allowed to keep playing once all this was out? I recall some sort of fax being waved around saying 'yep 3rd party control has been voided, honest guv', but then highly sought after international class player supposedly under contract with 'Stam with no 3rd party control goes to Man U for an absolute pittance when it would have been 30 million or so if he was 'properly' contracted to West Ham.

Never heard that issue being resolved satisfactorily, I assume the shredded paperwork relating to it is under a shagpile in Scudamore's office, with some furniture on top.
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I've got a funny feeling that it wasn't until Tevez moved to Manchester City that his registration became owned by an English football club. I think City paid something between £25.5m and £47m to Kia Joorabchian and his cronies.

I don't think Manchester United ever owned him, despite the Premiership being adamant that third party ownership isn't permissible.

Bladesman the Sunlan thing is slightly different: it was an oversight with them not getting international clearance for their own player after he returned from a loan in Germany. They reported themselves to the PL and were open and honest....unlike West Ham.
 
Zoneman

It's been a good few years but as far as I can recall the argument went like this.....

The kind of third party ownership both Argentines were under never was enforceable under UK law, so West Ham could without any legal comeback just say "we have torn it up, it's finished".

The problem is, as you rightly point out thier agent not West Ham pocketed the majority of both their transfer fees. As far as I know this was done as a good faith gesture, basically because if West Ham or the buying clubs had not then they would have been blacklisted for transfers from places were third party ownership is common and legal, which is most of the footballing world.

Now if you want to call that argument/distinction the biggest load of crap you have ever heard I can't blame you. If however it makes a legal difference......?
 
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Balham Blade said:
I've got a funny feeling that it wasn't until Tevez moved to Manchester City that his registration became owned by an English football club. I think City paid something between £25.5m and £47m to Kia Joorabchian and his cronies.

I don't think Manchester United ever owned him, despite the Premiership being adamant that third party ownership isn't permissible.

Bladesman the Sunlan thing is slightly different: it was an oversight with them not getting international clearance for their own player after he returned from a loan in Germany. They reported themselves to the PL and were open and honest....unlike West Ham.
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True my point was down to the Premier League not informing other clubs about this news until about 4 months later. It's the lack of transparancy at the Premeir League really.
 
ZoneManWilf said:
That's still what irks me the most about it all. Why the hell was Tevez allowed to keep playing once all this was out? I recall some sort of fax being waved around saying 'yep 3rd party control has been voided, honest guv', but then highly sought after international class player supposedly under contract with 'Stam with no 3rd party control goes to Man U for an absolute pittance when it would have been 30 million or so if he was 'properly' contracted to West Ham.

Never heard that issue being resolved satisfactorily, I assume the shredded paperwork relating to it is under a shagpile in Scudamore's office, with some furniture on top.
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I posted it elsewhere but Duxbury describes in detail here the "oral cuddles" which persuaded Tevez to carry on playing.
All of which was apparently not a problem to the Premier League:-

http://www.kumb.com/story.php?id=127755
 
A sane Hammers fan. said:
Zoneman

It's been a good few years but as far as I can recall the argument went like this.....

The kind of third party ownership both Argentines were under never was enforceable under UK law, so West Ham could without any legal comeback just say "we have torn it up, it's finished".

The problem is, as you rightly point out thier agent not West Ham pocketed the majority of both their transfer fees. As far as I know this was done as a good faith gesture, basically because if West Ham or the buying clubs had not then they would have been blacklisted for transfers from places were third party ownership is common and legal, which is most of the footballing world.

Now if you want to call that argument/distinction the biggest load of crap you have ever heard I can't blame you. If however it makes a legal difference......?
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I'm a lawyer by the way...

So WHU said there was no longer a third party agreement, but yet the people who allegedly no longer owned Tevez's registration were given - what - 90% + of his transfer fee as a "good faith gesture". In other words WHU continued to act as if the third party agreement was still in place after assuring the PL it wasn't.

You seem a reasonable chap. I am sure you can understand why we are mightily pissed off about this...

And, in any event, even if that story is true, WHU essentially got Tevez by conning his owners; entering into a third party agreement they never had any intention of enforcing. Grounds for sanctions in itself I would have thought.
 
Darren

As I said, I can't blame anyone for thinking the argument is a load of balls. Morally it's dodgy, legally well you can say better than me.

I just believe it's water under the bridge, at least as far as West Ham are concerned. Given our regular ups and downs there is no reason to believe we would not be in the prem right now even if we had have been relegated. Would the Blades still be in the top flight I'd they had not gone down back then? I honestly have no idea.
 

A sane Hammers fan. said:
Darren

As I said, I can't blame anyone for thinking the argument is a load of balls. Morally it's dodgy, legally well you can say better than me.

I just believe it's water under the bridge, at least as far as West Ham are concerned. Given our regular ups and downs there is no reason to believe we would not be in the prem right now even if we had have been relegated. Would the Blades still be in the top flight I'd they had not gone down back then? I honestly have no idea.
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I think the relegation was a much bigger deal for us than it would have been for WHU. WHU had spent 12 of the prevous 14 years in the PL and had hence built up some respources to get back in the PL sharpish (as indeed they did when relegated later). It was our first season there for 12 years.

Also the relegation led to the diastrous appointment of Bryan Robson and the Board giving him a ton of money (by SUFC standards) to piss up the wall. Had we stayed up, Warnock would have no doubt got a new contract, he would have got money which he would have spent more wisely than Robson, and we would have been all the stronger in 07-08.

Even if we had been relegated that season, I highly doubt we would be in the 3rd Division now.

So, yes, the Tevez thing was a pivotal moment for us; hence us being bitter and twisted about it :)
 
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