BDTBL - historical questions

[BladeFisher]

Looking at the old videos Walthy has posted got me thinking with the passage of time. We tend to get focussed on teams but as you get older I find it is changes to the ground that accelerate the process, particularly looking at the old photos and camera shots.

1. When was the space behind the BL stand to the pitch reduced? Seems quite large.

2. Also at the John Street/BL corner it looks as if the railings are on a curve rather than meeting at right angles. Presume associated with the cricket boundary?

3. The mini stand/shed (!) extension to the JS towards the BL end. What was that and who sat there?

4. Stanchions. I think we went from the black/grey crossbar to bottom of the net stanchions to the paperclip/ hoop type (top of crossbar to uprights). Any idea when this was?

Vaguely remember that it might have been as a result of some goal that wasn't given when the ball hit the stanchion and rebounded into play and booted out for a corner or something involving Chelsea or Watford (somebody non descript anyway ) and there was a right uproar about it.

5. Stanchions again, when did we go to the "poles with nets tied back to them arrangement?". What was the FA reason for this? I also remember a game when the ball got stuck in the stanchion. MOTD or something.

Also wondered if we could have a section of the Forum allocated to history to make it easier to find this stuff?

 

[CarlMcBlade]

Looking at the old videos Walthy has posted got me thinking with the passage of time. We tend to get focussed on teams but as you get older I find it is changes to the ground that accelerate the process, particularly looking at the old photos and camera shots.

1. When was the space behind the BL stand to the pitch reduced? Seems quite large.

2. Also at the John Street/BL corner it looks as if the railings are on a curve rather than meeting at right angles. Presume associated with the cricket boundary?

3. The mini stand/shed (!) extension to the JS towards the BL end. What was that and who sat there?

4. Stanchions. I think we went from the black/grey crossbar to bottom of the net stanchions to the paperclip/ hoop type (top of crossbar to uprights). Any idea when this was?

Vaguely remember that it might have been as a result of some goal that wasn't given when the ball hit the stanchion and rebounded into play and booted out for a corner or something involving Chelsea or Watford (somebody non descript anyway ) and there was a right uproar about it.

5. Stanchions again, when did we go to the "poles with nets tied back to them arrangement?". What was the FA reason for this? I also remember a game when the ball got stuck in the stanchion. MOTD or something.

Also wondered if we could have a section of the Forum allocated to history to make it easier to find this stuff?

Space behind goal has gone because seat are there now.

 

[Deleted member 875]

Looking at the old videos Walthy has posted got me thinking with the passage of time. We tend to get focussed on teams but as you get older I find it is changes to the ground that accelerate the process, particularly looking at the old photos and camera shots.

1. When was the space behind the BL stand to the pitch reduced? Seems quite large.

2. Also at the John Street/BL corner it looks as if the railings are on a curve rather than meeting at right angles. Presume associated with the cricket boundary?

3. The mini stand/shed (!) extension to the JS towards the BL end. What was that and who sat there?

4. Stanchions. I think we went from the black/grey crossbar to bottom of the net stanchions to the paperclip/ hoop type (top of crossbar to uprights). Any idea when this was?

Vaguely remember that it might have been as a result of some goal that wasn't given when the ball hit the stanchion and rebounded into play and booted out for a corner or something involving Chelsea or Watford (somebody non descript anyway ) and there was a right uproar about it.

5. Stanchions again, when did we go to the "poles with nets tied back to them arrangement?". What was the FA reason for this? I also remember a game when the ball got stuck in the stanchion. MOTD or something.

Also wondered if we could have a section of the Forum allocated to history to make it easier to find this stuff?

1. The gap when they put seats on the Bramall Lower teir. Instead of bolting seats directly on the terrace, they fill the gap underneath using all the rubble from the old John Street, and built a new take on where the gap used to be, leaving the lower teir open to the elements, whereas the old terrace had been under the top teir.

2. Probably, it used to be the same at the kop end as well

3. I think that was what remained of the old pre-war Leitch stand after the Luftwaffe had done their work. Think that part of the stand was condemned

4. Don't know

5. Think this was around 1995/96. United was one of the first teams to do this, but I preferred the old arrangement with a small hoop at the top of the net either side.

 

[BladeFisher]

1. The gap when they put seats on the Bramall Lower teir. Instead of bolting seats directly on the terrace, they fill the gap underneath using all the rubble from the old John Street, and built a new take on where the gap used to be, leaving the lower teir open to the elements, whereas the old terrace had been under the top teir.

2. Probably, it used to be the same at the kop end as well

3. I think that was what remained of the old pre-war Leitch stand after the Luftwaffe had done their work. Think that part of the stand was condemned

4. Don't know

5. Think this was around 1995/96. United was one of the first teams to do this, but I preferred the old arrangement with a small hoop at the top of the net either side.

Thanks Brownie. So to recap:

BL stand: The gap behind the goal was reduced when the new JS stand was built? What year was that opened?
Old JS stand: After the German bombing was the whole roof rebuilt? Year 1945/6?

Does anyone document this stuff as opposed to the playing side? I know its a bit anoraky (yes I did train gricing too) but I find as you age it is the change to the buildings that helps lose a bit of 'emotional security'.

 

[Proud Blade]

Someone will know better than me but I remember something about after the BL stand was built they realised you couldn't see the goal when sat down, so they had to move the goal line several yards up the pitch.

 

[Silent Blade]

BL stand: The gap behind the goal was reduced when the new JS stand was built? What year was that opened?
Old JS stand: After the German bombing was the whole roof rebuilt? Year 1945/6?
.

New BLLT was opened in summer 1994. JS was demolished in summer 1994 but was eventually completed in October 1996 (v Tranmere)

Think the damage to the east wing of the JS was rebuilt in the late 1940s (will check when I get home) but the gable was never rebuilt

 

[BladeFisher]

Someone will know better than me but I remember something about after the BL stand was built they realised you couldn't see the goal when sat down, so they had to move the goal line several yards up the pitch.

Interesting. From the top tier I presume you mean, since the bottom was terracing until reconstruction?

 

[bertieblade]

Think the bramall lane stand was opened in 1966 for a match against the snort beasts

 

[ZoneManWilf]

Think the stanchions were changed in the early 80s to the loop style ones. Probably 81/82/83.

 

[Silent Blade]

Think the bramall lane stand was opened in 1966 for a match against the snort beasts

v Sunderland in October 1966

We didn't play a home match against Wendy in the year 1966. Before that it was in November 1965 (won with a Birchenall goal) and after that was February 1967 (won with a Punton goal)

 

[Dnblade]

Wonder what the gantry was used for with having the the pavillion over the other side...there does look like something that resembles a scoreboard on the picture.

 

[bertieblade]

Is that Brian the blade

 

[vorpal blade]

Just to add to the previous contributions that all seem reasonable, some of my thoughts if I may.....

1. When was the space behind the BL stand to the pitch reduced? Seems quite large.

Post Hillsborough, when they made it all seated, they built new terracing (to put the seats on, in front of the old terracing, probably because the views from the standing terrace below the upper tier was so restricted by BIG concrete columns. I think the Bramall Lane stand was just the upper tier erected above the original terracing on this columns and aye, you did get wet!

2. Also at the John Street/BL corner it looks as if the railings are on a curve rather than meeting at right angles. Presume associated with the cricket boundary?

I think the terracing at all 4 corners was curved, not particularly to do with the cricket I wouldn't have thought but I take your point. It always looked very good and I regret that the new stands don't have elegantly curved corners. I suppose this is because curved stands are more expensive to construct? though it maybe that the architects are just lazy. (which is why in the you get a lot of 45º angles in buildings from the 1970s and '80s, the natural position of an adjustable set-square being 45º cf. the ManPower Services Commission building at Moorfoot from the 1990s onwards architects switched from drawing boards to computer drafting and there was no longer any urge to lazily put you unopened set-square on the parallel motion and draw a line at 45º) The Westfield Corner isn't curved.

3. The mini stand/shed (!) extension to the JS towards the BL end. What was that and who sat there?

The seats were just part of the rest of the stand weren't they? It was an ungainly little structure.

4. Stanchions. I think we went from the black/grey crossbar to bottom of the net stanchions to the paperclip/ hoop type (top of crossbar to uprights). Any idea when this was?

Vaguely remember that it might have been as a result of some goal that wasn't given when the ball hit the stanchion and rebounded into play and booted out for a corner or something involving Chelsea or Watford (somebody non descript anyway ) and there was a right uproar about it.

5. Stanchions again, when did we go to the "poles with nets tied back to them arrangement?". What was the FA reason for this? I also remember a game when the ball got stuck in the stanchion. MOTD or something.

I think you are right about this and the reason they went to the standard type of goalpost - for what its worth (nought) my prefence would be for black nets because you can see through them much more clearly than any other colours......thats why tennis nets are black.

 

[Silent Blade]

Wonder what the gantry was used for with having the the pavillion over the other side...there does look like something that resembles a scoreboard on the picture. View attachment 17470

The gantry was the press box. The press used pigeons to sent the reports from the gantry to the Star offices

 

[Revolution]

the

Thanks Brownie. So to recap:

BL stand: The gap behind the goal was reduced when the new JS stand was built? What year was that opened?
Old JS stand: After the German bombing was the whole roof rebuilt? Year 1945/6?

Does anyone document this stuff as opposed to the playing side? I know its a bit anoraky (yes I did train gricing too) but I find as you age it is the change to the buildings that helps lose a bit of 'emotional security'.

Simon Inglis' excellent Football Grounds of England and Wales/Great Britain books document the changes to the ground. There are 3 editions, the most recent one being 1996.

Inglis' book "Engineering Archie" has a couple of pages on the John Street stand, which was the first Leitch designed first football stand built outside Scotland.

The Clarebrough/Kirkham books have various things in them about the development of the ground too.

The shot that hit the net and rebounded out was Glen Cockerill's v Grimsby in 1984-5. It was at the Bramall Lane end. The stanchion arrangement may have been changed because of this.

 

[vorpal blade]

Well, you're right, the curved corners do suit cricket better but a lot of grounds had nice curved corners, Maine Road, Highbury etc.

DN's question is interesting was the structure to the right of the press-box on the John Street roof a scoreboard? or was it the pigeon loft Silent?

The little triangular bit on the roof of the present John St. stand is there as memory of the big old press-box, and there was a weather vane on the old one. I seem to remember when they were building the new John Street Stand, Kevin McC. found a drawing of it and asked me to come up with a replica - I didn't ever do it but I think it would have been a nicer topping to the stand than the misunderstood 'pediment' that we have now. It's 20 years ago and I can't remember the chain of events with total clarity. I think it was in the same vein as 'Old Father Time' at Lords, I remember stumps and a boat and ball or something, from the bomb-site photo above, it seems that Goering missed it....does it still exist?

 

[Basing Blade]

I took these in 1981.

 

[Dnblade]

I remember Woody lodging one in the stanchion from about 25 yards..could have been v Blackburn but not sure.
Also on point no.4 of BF's post,I remember a goal at the Kop end being disallowed when the ball went through the side netting into the back of the net...not sure if that was the incident that caused the controversy.
As Vorpal mentioned the corners were always curved until the more recent development.

 

[BladeFisher]

I took these in 1981.
View attachment 17476 View attachment 17477 View attachment 17478 View attachment 17479

Great thanks. Really miss those floodlights (sob) always looked out for them after leaving Midland station heading south on the train.

 

[vorpal blade]

this is an intermediate stage AFTER the War but before they built a cantilevered roof that covered the standing room at the front. The terracing was diminished in size by putting in some more seats right in front of the posts holding the roof up.

When I was a boy, I could see the glass fronted remnant of the pressbox on the roof from high up at the back of the Bramall Lane stand, I assumed it was where the groundsman lived.

 

[Revolution]

View attachment 17482

this is an intermediate stage AFTER the War but before they built a cantilevered roof that covered the standing room at the front. The terracing was diminished in size by putting in some more seats right in front of the posts holding the roof up.

When I was a boy, I could see the glass fronted remnant of the pressbox on the roof from high up at the back of the Bramall Lane stand, I assumed it was where the groundsman lived.

Slightly tangentially, we had a great chance of winning the cup that year, or even reaching the final. If we'd have beaten them we'd have played a middling Luton side in the semi - Norwich held them to a draw and only lost 1-0 in the replay - and a middling Forest team in the Final. We should've won the home tie - the Norwich keeper broke his arm - but we lost the replay 3-2.

That was the first of 4 straight years we reached the last 8. We lost at home to the Pigs in 1960 and Burnley in 1962, and won at Newcastle in 1961 but lost to Leicester in the semi, of course.

 

[grafikhaus]

This might interest you?

 

[BladeFisher]

This might interest you?

Cheers G. Any more questions's I'll come back.

 

[Ben_1982]

Also why is the Car park on such a slope when it must've been level for the cricket pitch!

 

[Jon Bon]

Also why is the Car park on such a slope when it must've been level for the cricket pitch!

Because the old cricket pavilion, and thus the pitch, was well below street level.

 

[Finn Keane o' Balmaqueen]

Are our floodlights LED or HP Sodium / Mercury?

 

[BushBlade]

Are our floodlights LED or HP Sodium / Mercury?

I'd guess metal halide.

 

[Finn Keane o' Balmaqueen]

I'd guess metal halide.

Man, I have a boner with a capital "O".

 

[BushBlade]

Man, I have a boner with a capital "O".

Mercury lamps are inefficient once you get above a couple of hundred watts and HPS lack sufficient blue spectrum.

 

[JJ Sefton]

Bramall Lane in 1868...