Are we currently towards the end of a long term plan?

[jt64]

Not ridiculous just an opinion different to yours and one which I agree with. I think you are over estimating the ability of many of our players.

Those of us who can recall starting the season with the marauding left side combination of Martyn Woolford and Callum McFadzean are able to recognise when a squad is actually way off Championship standards levels of shit. This current squad isn't that.

 

[CPB]

My understanding was that they tried to retain as many of the squad in the 2 seasons down so that we had the best chance of going back up.
And we had limited incomings because we didn't sell anyone bar Ramsdale. They wanted to sell someone else like Sander, and then re-coup monies from relegation with some funds being released to replace him.
I believe the club actively tried to tout Berge around being sold right up until January 2023 when Dozy tried to put a stop to it when he was "buying the club". And I think the Prince realised that selling N'Diaye and Berge in Jan might mean no promotion (Would mean!) and promotion is worth more.

It was a gamble and it paid off, because of the emergence of N'Diaye as well as some good loan signings.

Had we not gone up last season, Berge, N'Diaye, McBurnie, Anel would have all been sold and the funds brought in used to plug our financial gap. Perhaps more outgoings as well.
Then some money would have been re-invested back in the playing squad but how much is anybodys guess. Less than what we have spent this season that's for sure.

The hope would be that Heckingbottom would have been able to assemble a top 6 side but with the thinking that may have been a stretch, we may have drifted into that mid table/lower table or worse pack quite quickly.

Our financial clout overall though in the Championship would have returned to much lower levels because we would have no parachute payments. So the wage bill would drop by a good chunk as well. But if the sales had panned out we would have been able to spend maybe some OK money at champ level but equally trying to replace more than Berge and N'diaye.

I honestly don't know how it will pan out next season back in the champ. We will have alot of player turnover with contracts up that won't be renewed.
We will see outgoings for fee's at a guess. Most likely Anel, perhaps Hamer, Brooks etc.

It's gonna be a bumpy summer even if it ends up working out well!

 

[mattbianco1]

My understanding was that they tried to retain as many of the squad in the 2 seasons down so that we had the best chance of going back up.
And we had limited incomings because we didn't sell anyone bar Ramsdale. They wanted to sell someone else like Sander, and then re-coup monies from relegation with some funds being released to replace him.
I believe the club actively tried to tout Berge around being sold right up until January 2023 when Dozy tried to put a stop to it when he was "buying the club". And I think the Prince realised that selling N'Diaye and Berge in Jan might mean no promotion (Would mean!) and promotion is worth more.

It was a gamble and it paid off, because of the emergence of N'Diaye as well as some good loan signings.

Had we not gone up last season, Berge, N'Diaye, McBurnie, Anel would have all been sold and the funds brought in used to plug our financial gap. Perhaps more outgoings as well.
Then some money would have been re-invested back in the playing squad but how much is anybodys guess. Less than what we have spent this season that's for sure.

The hope would be that Heckingbottom would have been able to assemble a top 6 side but with the thinking that may have been a stretch, we may have drifted into that mid table/lower table or worse pack quite quickly.

Our financial clout overall though in the Championship would have returned to much lower levels because we would have no parachute payments. So the wage bill would drop by a good chunk as well. But if the sales had panned out we would have been able to spend maybe some OK money at champ level but equally trying to replace more than Berge and N'diaye.

I honestly don't know how it will pan out next season back in the champ. We will have alot of player turnover with contracts up that won't be renewed.
We will see outgoings for fee's at a guess. Most likely Anel, perhaps Hamer, Brooks etc.

It's gonna be a bumpy summer even if it ends up working out well!

You could also say that by not spending big this season, we've paid off the debts/loans. This would mean that in the CH with parachute payments behind us, we may actually have some clout behind us again to rebuild and go again.

Of course i'd have liked us to keep Berge and Ndiaye, and also spend a good chunk to try and stay up. But spending loads doesn't necessarily mean you will stay up... See Burnley

 

[TJ blade]

I’m telling you now we will go down and bounce straight up again. We will win the championship I think, our youngsters should thrive next season

And I'll have a pint of what your supping

 

[CPB]

You could also say that by not spending big this season, we've paid off the debts/loans. This would mean that in the CH with parachute payments behind us, we may actually have some clout behind us again to rebuild and go again.

Of course i'd have liked us to keep Berge and Ndiaye, and also spend a good chunk to try and stay up. But spending loads doesn't necessarily mean you will stay up... See Burnley

If we have paid off the debts and loans? We won't pay all the loans off because some are to get the money upfront for PL payments and then parachute payments.
We can but hope though that any other debt has or will be gone like you say.

That would hopefully mean we go into next season more financially sound and in theory able to spend some money wisely to assemble a squad.

The thing is, we don't really know. However unlike last time up, surely it cannot be that we technically overspent to try and stay up/kick on. Our net spend is about 20-30m in fees and then obv. more added to wages.

 

[Paddy1]

Sorry but I’ve no idea what the post is about. My attention span after work today is very short and seeing how long it was I couldn’t be bothered to read it. Credit though for taking the time to type all that out

 

[Zeblades34]

If we kicked off in the Championship tomorrow with this squad, we'd easily make the top 6.
We obviously cant/won't have this squad though. Archer, Brereton-Diaz and McAtee all instantly go back, then we have a number of players out of contract.

Let's say all those are released. Then your point is valid.

But to say THIS squad of players doesn't flirt with top 6 is a ridiculous statement.

Easily making top 6? Not sure easily, we had one of the best managers in the championship (slav) along with one of the best set of players in the championship (21/22) and everyone thought it would be a demolition job in the championship, it were only until he got sacked and hecky came in and reimplemented a familiar style that we pushed in to the play offs. All opinions mate end of day but one thing is that's a cert, that team will need some reinforcements in the summer, prince needs to put up or sell up.

 

[mattbianco1]

All opinions mate end of day but one thing is that's a cert, that team will need some reinforcements in the summer, prince needs to put up or sell up

Of course it does.
We stand to lose 15 players on free transfers, plus key players - McAtee, BBD & Archer.

My argument is THIS current team finishes top 6.

If we were in the Championship now with our squad, i'd say we would be 4th/5th.

Leicester and Southampton both have better squads than us. You could argue Leeds have too.
Ipswich have done fantastic to try and push straight through, but we've started to see signs now where they'll tail off of the autos race.

Good thing is next season, Leicester aren't there. Southampton or Leeds probably won't be there, maybe both.
If Ipswich don't go up, they'll need a reset season as everything has progressed very fast.

Sunderland would be a tip for next season for me.

 

[Shawy24]

Bear

 

[MojoMuffin]

Bare with me on this. I understand this may be giving credit where it isn't due, but is this just the tough bit of a long term plan which comes to fruition next year?

Is this how the story goes?

1) Relegation from the Premier League in 20/21. Finances are a concern now given we're relegated with the below players that were signed during our top flight tenure, who are possibly on very good wages plus the affects of the covid fall-out. Relegation clauses may have been in-place, but we're still bleeding money.
(Berge, Mcburnie, Moose, Robinson, Freeman, Osborn, Brewster, Ramsdale, Burke, Bogle, Lowe.)

2) Slav gets appointed for a promotion charge in 21/22 and we sell Ramsdale to Arsenal and loan out 4 of the signings made in the Premier League. Slav changes the formation and play style completely, it doesn't go well and is sacked by November with a hefty pay-off from the club.

3) The memorable press conference comes out regarding future strategy in terms of promoting youth from the academy and through UW. Hecky is appointed to run the first team for a 2nd time.

4) After a below par start to the season, Hecky somehow manages to get us into the play-offs, of which we fail to win and remain in the Championship for a second season.

5) True to the future strategy conference, in 22/23 we only sign one player in Anel Ahmedhodzic but replace the expired loan of MGW with the loan signing of Macca from City and give Ndiaye a change to shine in the first team. We also bring in Doyle, Clark and Khadra in on loan whilst Moose, Burke, Freeman and the rolls royce leave on free transfers.

At this point, finances are in a very poor state of which towards the end of a brilliant season we're unable to afford the upkeep of the stadium and are placed under a transfer embargo due to defaulted payments on Ahmedhodzic. Money is scarce, the Prince is skint and we can't even afford to feed our own grass.

6) We are promoted automatically to the Premier League at the end of the 22/23 season. I genuinely think this comes as a surprise to the board and the new transfer strategy was based on a model of us being in the Championship for another 2 or 3 seasons. The promotion funds fill a big hole in the finances and secure a more promising future for the club for the next few years to come.

7) This is where my biggest criticism comes in. Despite boasting what appeared to be a well thought out business model of promoting youth into the first team, we are promoted to the Premier League with an absolute exodus of players looming the following summer with contracts expiring not just throughout the starting 11, but through the youth ranks of which were apparently destined to be our future first team. It's my understanding that we made large efforts on certain players to extend them last summer but failed to do so, ala Ndiaye.

Now, with a caveat to the contract situation, the only thing I can assume is that we simply did not have the money to extend contracts to 10-14 players. Which if so, this is where I may be giving too much credit to this long term plan because the board took one of the riskiest decisions with the club that I've seen in my life time to use non-guaranteed promotion funds to secure the signatures of our future team. It's possible, especially with what we've seen with other teams that we took a massive gamble by making some (contextually for us) big-money loans and signed a promising defender that we couldn't afford to give it one vital last go to get promoted. It paid off and we'll never know what would have happened if we didn't go up. Thank fuck we went up.

8) I still maintain the opinion that this was not the season to splash the cash, of which we were clearly lacking. I think the transfer strategy remains the same but due to the sales of Ndiaye, Berge, two players who did not want to play for us anymore, along with some of the promotion funds, we go for young, promising players. We take a realistic stance on our chance in the Premier League and decide to sign players who would give us a much better chance of promotion next season, rather than relying on young lads from the academy as per the original strategy.

We bring in Hamer, Souza, Trusty, Traore, Slimane and Davies. Players we hope will perform well at this level, but at the very least be up to par in the Championship the following season. We also take a punt at survival with the 2nd loan spell of Macca, a few names to cover injuries and also what could have been a clever deal with Villa to sign Archer with an obligation for them to buy him back upon relegation. We also take a punt on BBD in the JTW. There's absolutely no guarantee all of the players we signed to long term contracts remain with us. That will however be at the clubs discretion and Traore looks to be already out the door. Outside of the signings we have made in the summer, it's anyone's guess who remains and leave. Again though, that will be at the clubs discretion given we're fixing errors made in regards to contracts.

Macca, BBD and Archer will leave but at Championship level, these aren't irreplaceable. O-hare with his contract expiring in the summer could be a decent replacement for Macca rather than another loan for that position. Archer has shown some clinical ability in the top flight and definitely in the Championship, but I do feel there'll be another striker we either sign, loan or give a chance to in our younger lads that can do a job next season.

Now, my point here in regards towards the end of a long term plan - A plan to build a team that can get promoted from the Championship. If the original plan was to build a young squad capable of getting promoted to the Premier League, I do think that plan comes to fruition next year. I think it's come sooner than expected because of an unexpected promotion of which we have taken the opportunity to sign better young players for that promotion push rather than academy lads we would have relied on and had to develop for a few more seasons in the Championship.

I completely understand the frustration of what's happening this season and the embarrassment of results that we've had to watch. I'm just trying to take a step back from the Saturday kick-offs and try and see a bigger picture, particularly the picture that the board painted for us, and based on what we've done so far with players and contracts, this is where I'm at with it. I'm looking forward to next season, genuinely. I know people are pissed off and bored of chucking 50 quid away a weekend to watch us getting spanked to bits at this level, but with the squad we've got and the fact we only sold Ramsdale upon relegation after splashing over 100m, I do think the Prince will try and keep this squad together based on the strategy they went with. Best guess, Anel goes after relegation and a few of the old boys. I don't think we'll do a lot of business in the summer due to what we've done last summer, plus we have brilliant youth in Osula, Brooks, Arblaster etc who could play a big part next season too. There's a lot of unknowns about next season in terms of the sale of the club, coaching team and management which you can't legislate for, but I'm quietly confident we'll be there or thereabouts in terms of a promotion push.

Notes to add:

• United World is shite.
• Lower your asking price, Prince.
• I'm not a clapper or a fanny.

Bump?...

 

[William Carey]

I’m telling you now we will go down and bounce straight up again. We will win the championship I think, our youngsters should thrive next season

bump

 

[Charlieblade]

Before Wider signed some decent players, I genuinely believed that the squad would finish midtable.
Taking in the quality of the new arrivals, I can see a very good chance of a top six finish!

Automatic promotion is not impossible, but we will not see that until Christmas! Wilder looks to have done well. Maybe a few more to come?

 

[S64 Blade]

Before Wider signed some decent players, I genuinely believed that the squad would finish midtable.
Taking in the quality of the new arrivals, I can see a very good chance of a top six finish!

Automatic promotion is not impossible, but we will not see that until Christmas! Wilder looks to have done well. Maybe a few more to come?

At the moment, I think our biggest risks to competing at the very top end are (1) struggling to actually score - we seem to still need 5 good chances to score 1 (2) conceding sloppy goals.

I think we’ve made some good acquisitions to resolve (2). Hoping we can resolve (1).

 

[Keen Blade]

The 2024 accounts should be out in the next month or so.
As we spent modestly in summer 2023 , I am hoping to find that a very large chunk of our £80m long-term debt (as at 30 June 2023) has been paid off using some of the PL income.
23/24 was our big chance to reduce it.

 

[MobileBlade]

The 2024 accounts should be out in the next month or so.
As we spent modestly in summer 2023 , I am hoping to find that a very large chunk of our £80m long-term debt (as at 30 June 2023) has been paid off using some of the PL income.
23/24 was our big chance to reduce it.

Except we will have invested in the hotel, new training ground, Crookes amongst other things.

 

[Houston_Blade]

The 2024 accounts should be out in the next month or so.
As we spent modestly in summer 2023 , I am hoping to find that a very large chunk of our £80m long-term debt (as at 30 June 2023) has been paid off using some of the PL income.
23/24 was our big chance to reduce it.

Where in the accounts is the £80m long term debt?

 

[Keen Blade]

Where in the accounts is the £80m long term debt?

Balance sheet June 2023.
Bank £52m.
Owner £28m

 

[Keen Blade]

Where in the accounts is the £80m long term debt?

Sorry , the long-term bank debt is £45m - I can't now find the amount the club owes the Prince (did he convert it to equity ?)
Anyway , we had substantial debt in June 23 and I hope it's reduced , coz if we remain in Championship beyond the parachutes , it's quite a burden to service on a smaller income.

 

[Keen Blade]

Where in the accounts is the £80m long term debt?

I've had a look back to the 'Finances' thread and found that the £52m & £28m were figures in the media reports of our 2023 accounts - I'm not an accountant and can't find those figures in the actual accounts.

 

[Houston_Blade]

I've had a look back to the 'Finances' thread and found that the £52m & £28m were figures in the media reports of our 2023 accounts - I'm not an accountant and can't find those figures in the actual accounts.

I’d assume any repayments of these loans have been replaced by new loans secured against the parachute payments. I don’t see a scenario where we’ve made big payments to reduce our debt levels.

 

[Charlieblade]

I understood that academy players were initially targeted to produce income from sales in the longer term.Very few expected Peck and Seriki to develop so quickly.
The main interest was in Arblaster and possibly Brooks, as future first teamers.

Wilder, the recruitment team, and the owner have done what they can with what remains of the club. It was possibly Wilders intention to add a few more players in the summer? Did the Prince, or potential new owners put a stop to that for financial reasons? We probably won’t know that.

The net result is, that while the club has done well with acquisitions, there comes a time when someone has to call a halt to spending, or agree to go into debt.

In the normal course of events, most clubs would make up the player shortfall in the JTW. What if Tom Davies is the new midfielder we would have to buy? What if Moore returns and adds goals?

Behind all this is the emergence of Peck and Seriki as possible gap fillers. Even if the club did have money to spend, why would the poor Prince, or potential buyers sanction more debt? According to them, we don’t need to spend money we don’t have?

The club looks to be doing just fine sitting on top of the league. Intentional or not, Wilder is a victim of his own success. He has successfully integrated youth, bought well, and has permanent signings finding health and form at exactly the right time?

Who can justify the expense of loan signings in a window notorious for desperation? Wilder believes 2 loan signing are both possible, and necessary. In the perfect world, most supporters would agree with him. Just look at it from the big picture view. Any new owners, or the current one would say no!,

FWIW I don’t think the club will be sold this season. It’s gone on far too long for that.

 

[Keen Blade]

I’d assume any repayments of these loans have been replaced by new loans secured against the parachute payments. I don’t see a scenario where we’ve made big payments to reduce our debt levels.

After selling Trusty late in the window and not filling all our loan slots , it has felt like we are "bumping along the bottom" financially.
We'll have to wait for the 2024 accounts to see if some of the 23/24 PL income has been used to improved our balance sheet.