Alternate Formation

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Tony_Kaufman

Here's a truck stop instead of St Peter's
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It's early doors yet and we don't yet know what other players are going to come in. Given who we do currently have what alternate formation could we go with?

I thought about a straight forward 442 but the problem with that is that we only have Campbell and Peck. Any subs to replace them would be One and Marsh.

Last season we suffered as we had no left wingers on the books and the two right wingers we had were inconsistent and both got dropped for the other for good reason.

Any ideas? I'm struggling to find balance with this squad.
 

We've had two faces now where are 4:3:3 is clearly not working and he hasn't changed it. Even at 4-1 down. I worry we're stuck with it.
I think the 433 can work but the midfield 3 needs changing or the defensive responsibilities more refined from them. Clearly we need more centre backs but that would be the same no matter what formation we play.
 
Lone 6 with fullbacks wide and going forward will not work no matter who we sign. Selles has two options, change the roles of his fullbacks or move to a double pivot. First option we may still need to drop one of O’Hare/Hamer for a more conventional midfielder like Peck but that change alone won’t fix our issues.
 
Lone 6 with fullbacks wide and going forward will not work no matter who we sign. Selles has two options, change the roles of his fullbacks or move to a double pivot. First option we may still need to drop one of O’Hare/Hamer for a more conventional midfielder like Peck but that change alone won’t fix our issues.
Saved me typing
Pretty much exactly what I was going to post 👍
 
I do have to agree that allowing the fullbacks to bomb forward is a disaster waiting to happen when you allow two midfielders to go forward too. This leaves the one defensive midfielder to do the work of three and your centre backs picking up two players each. It doesn't matter what central defenders or defensive midfielder you sign, you will get hit and punished on the counter attack.

You either need to keep your full backs back as defenders, or keep your midfielders back when the fullbacks do venture forward. Alternately Barry drops back to cover Burrows and Brooks does the same for Seriki.

It's only been one game and it seemed to work in pre-season, but it created our own problems against Bristol which they exploited to their advantage. Going forward we did more than enough to win the game ourselves with the chances we created, but defensively they ran through us with ease.
 
We need to go full pivot with a no 6 bombing on down the flanks. Full backs need to be switching in midfield and cannon should be roaming along the centre.
Other than that though I've no idea.
 
It has to be a revolutionary 4-2-3-1

We'll invent this thing where 2 midfielders play next to each other in a slightly deeper position on the pitch

We'll ask these midfielders to occasionally tackle as well as pass

It'll be mad
Agree…get Peck next Soumare in the 2, Barry, Hamer, O’Hare behind Campbell, and sign some defenders to cobble together a functional back 4
 
I do have to agree that allowing the fullbacks to bomb forward is a disaster waiting to happen when you allow two midfielders to go forward too. This leaves the one defensive midfielder to do the work of three and your centre backs picking up two players each. It doesn't matter what central defenders or defensive midfielder you sign, you will get hit and punished on the counter attack.

You either need to keep your full backs back as defenders, or keep your midfielders back when the fullbacks do venture forward. Alternately Barry drops back to cover Burrows and Brooks does the same for Seriki.

It's only been one game and it seemed to work in pre-season, but it created our own problems against Bristol which they exploited to their advantage. Going forward we did more than enough to win the game ourselves with the chances we created, but defensively they ran through us with ease.


If we are to persevere with a a 4-3-3 formation which I don’t mind in principle , the basis of this must surely be a solid back four playing in line thereby covering all the potential attacking options .

The players who should support the attacking three should not be the fullbacks but rather the two wide midfield players with the central one playing a holding role .

Against Bristol City , I lost count of the number of times we were exposed to 3 or even 4 against 3 and if that is allowed to continue we should not be surprised if similar results ensue .
 
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Can anyone remember how Hull played against us?

Selles hasn't invented 4-3-3, so other than our defenders not being good enough, what else did they have that we are missing?
 
Hull had Alzate, Crooks and Slater in midfield that day. Which is more like the sensible balance you'd expect if playing that type of system
 
It has to be a revolutionary 4-2-3-1

We'll invent this thing where 2 midfielders play next to each other in a slightly deeper position on the pitch

We'll ask these midfielders to occasionally tackle as well as pass

It'll be mad
4-2-3-1 seems a sensible way to get the best out of this squad adds more defensive cover for what is very clearly a very frail back 4 at the minute, frees up Hamer and O’Hare from as much defensive responsibility and allows us to get as many of our better players as possible on the pitch at one time.
 
Can anyone remember how Hull played against us?

Selles hasn't invented 4-3-3, so other than our defenders not being good enough, what else did they have that we are missing?
Hull got lucky on the day as they had a high shot conversion on the counter. It was very much like Bristol City in terms of balance of the ball.
 

I think the 433 can work but the midfield 3 needs changing or the defensive responsibilities more refined from them. Clearly we need more centre backs but that would be the same no matter what formation we play.
If we're playing a 4-3-3 we need to play two midfielders who can tackle. 3 against the better teams. We currently have Peck, Soumare and the permanently injured Davies and Shackleton. We need at least two more. It's not just a CB problem. There literally no cover for the defenders with O'Hare and Hamer starting. They're exposed all the time. No one tracks runs. If the FBs are caught upfield there's no one covering.
 
433 is leaving us wide open , they made the extra man count in the middle & found loads space down the flanks . I think they need to go to a 442 just to offer some support to a defence that currently looks a shakey as hell .
Offensively we offered nothing whatsoever down the left & Ukaki looks like Beni Traore reincarnation . We got bullied last night & the height we’ve lost from the team ( Moore , Choudhury , Souza & Anel ) stood out a mile especially on set pieces .
The balls firmly in the owners court between now & the end of Aug to backfill the quality we have lost , but the manager has to address the formation as it’s clearly not working too ⚔️
 
Hull got lucky on the day as they had a high shot conversion on the counter. It was very much like Bristol City in terms of balance of the ball.
So basically the idea would be that we play how we played against Bristol and just put away our chances? To be fair, I don't think this is miles away from being achievable. Soumare instead of Peck in that game and 2 experienced CBs and we probably have the makings of it being successful.

Last night was different, we started a bunch of players who are unlikely to be in a starting 11. I actually thought Curtis did ok, he put himself about, looked naïve but not out of place. Ukaki or Brooks will need to step up and claim that right wing spot. Barry would have had a further impact on the other side.

I can't remember who posted it but I don't really like us continuing to play the youngsters out of position. One and Marsh, its not fair on them as they didn't seem to be comfortable and it will definitely have an affect on their confidence. I'm surprised we didn't start One as the striker and Cannon out wide as One's size and strength might have helped.
 
The team i would put out against Swansea is this.

Cooper
Sasnauskas Bindon Robinson
OHare Peck Soumare Hamer Burrows
Campbell Barry
Formation correct.

Femi as RWB.

Peck or Soumare dropped with COH right side floating.

Even through last seasons successful 92 point haul, we still carried the ingrained DNA of a 3 at the back squad.

UTB
 
The team i would put out against Swansea is this.

Cooper
Sasnauskas Bindon Robinson
OHare Peck Soumare Hamer Burrows
Campbell Barry
O Hare is never a wing back. Sasnaukas should be nowhere near the championship currently. Needs a loan in national league for 6 months. Wouldn't want Barry playing through the middle either, takes away all his strengths. The blue print is there from last season, it didn't need ripping up just tweaking slightly. With all that being said, if you defend like we have so far everything else is irrelevant because you have no chance
 
Against Bristol City, we looked to build from the back in a 1-4-1 formation in deep build-up, with Peck and Hamer interchanging as the lone pivot. This is usually okay, and we didn't have too many problems playing through their press in the first half. In attacking build-up, however, our rest defence (defensive structure in possession) resembled more of a 1-2-1/2 shape, with six/seven players in the final third. This is hugely unsustainable and the main reason we were beaten in transition so regularly. If our press was more coherent and effective, then you might be able to get away with it, but effective counter attacking opposition turning the ball over against our rest defence will have a field day, like Bristol City had.

The main solution a lot of people have suggested is a 1-4-2-3-1, which I like, as it gives us another option in deep build-up and should allow us to keep the ball more effectively than we did against Birmingham. The main thing that needs sorting, though, is our rest defence, and this is where I think a 1-4-2-3-1 can be effective for us both in and out of possession. Someone earlier in the thread had their ideal team currently as:
Cooper
Seriki - Bindon - Robinson - Burrows
Peck - Soumare
O'Hare - Hamer - Barry
Campbell

So, with seven players in deep build-up, as I said, we should be better at keeping the ball.

But what a lot of people have mentioned is that O'Hare isn't a right winger. And they're right — he isn't. So, when United play from the back and through the press and get inside the opposition half, he inverts. This in my opinion, gets the best out of everyone. It allows Seriki to push forward into the final third where he's effective, O'Hare is close to the striker and Hamer. Hamer is in the left half-space around 25 yards out, where his best football came last season. Barry is still wide and can come inside and rotate with Hamer when the timing’s right. We would then look something more like this in possession:
Cooper
Bindon - Robinson - Burrows
Peck - Soumare
Seriki - O'Hare - Hamer - Barry
Campbell

With that shape, we have an extra defender (which would allow us to recycle more effectively) and a guaranteed extra sitter that can help in build-up again. Our defensive structure, if we turn over the ball against an opposition counter, would look so much more secure than it did against Bristol City. We would also have five attacking bodies to counter-press high, with the two sitters who can squeeze the pitch if the opportunity allows.

The main issue for me with the change in rest defence is that it doesn't allow Burrows forward. We could see how it looks prioritising him when building down the left side, which would look like below, but this means starting Brooks on the right, O’Hare in the 10 and Hamer on the left, with Barry missing out:
Cooper
Seriki - Bindon - Robinson
Peck - Soumare
Brooks - O'Hare - Hamer - Burrows
Campbell

This then basically becomes about who is going to affect more games going forward: Seriki vs Burrows and Brooks vs Barry. For me, under this style, I think Seriki and Barry are more effective, hence holding Burrows back and keeping Brooks on the bench. The issue is then, you firstly waste Burrows’ attacking talents, and secondly, he isn’t the strongest defender. If we were to go with something like I suggested, which is more of a 1-3-2-4-1 shape in possession to get the best out of the likes of Hamer, Barry and O’Hare, the main issue would be to get a defensive left-back who can effectively play as a left centre-back in possession to allow Seriki to advance.

Appreciate this is all ifs, buts and maybes, but I do think this would be the best way to tighten ourselves up against transition, while allowing us to keep the ball better in deep build-up and still maintaining the attacking threat we had against Bristol City in the final third.
 
Can anyone remember how Hull played against us?

Selles hasn't invented 4-3-3, so other than our defenders not being good enough, what else did they have that we are missing?
It's a complete urban myth that Hull that day were better than us. Just like Bristol City they scored with every shot they had. For the other 87 minutes we dominated the game. Go watch the highlights on YouTube and you'll be left scratching your head how we lost.
 
Just for shits n gigs:

---------------------------- Cooper --------------------------------
------------ Bindon - Robinson - McCallum ------------
Seriki ----------------- Soumare ----------------- Burrows
------------ O'Hare -------------------- Hamer -----------------
------------------ Campbell ----- Barry ------------------------
 
I would play 4-2-1-3/ 4-2-3-1 Saturday. We obviously need more stability in the middle so I'd have the midfield like the Fleck, Norwood, Duffy triangle. O'Hare or Hamer as the most advanced with Soumáre and Peck as the deeper 2. Think O'Hare needs to be in the team so could be used wide instead of Brooks.
 

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