Alleged racism by a Sheffield United Ladies player

[BushBlade]

Agree...it’s is a minefield.

Was listening to Talksport last night and they quickly mentioned this case.
One journalist said the female players still pleads her innocence saying it was a kangaroo court with the FA determined to find her guilty. The co presenter Darren Lewis (a well respected London based black sports journalist with very strong anti racism views) kind of ignored this saying it’s good that FA have sent out such a strong message that racism is not acceptable.

He basically inferred that it didn’t matter if she was innocent because the greater cause of anti racism is much more important.
In some ways I agree, that it does send out a great message to society that racism is not acceptable but I feel uncomfortable that this girl might be a totally innocent scapegoat used as collateral damage for the greater good.

He may be well intentioned but Lewis sees racism everywhere. He’s convinced that Darren Moore didn’t get as long as other managers would because of his ethnicity. That completely disregards the multitude of white managers who’ve also been sacked when owners panic, including, historically, several of ours and most recently Rowett.
Sacking managers in the championship is commonplace and plenty probably feel they didn’t get enough time.

West Brom’s owners have made a series of really poor decisions since taking over and even if you think sacking Moore was another, I’d suggest it’s more likely due to them not knowing what they’re doing than some inherent racism. Of course I could be wrong but I wouldn’t make accusations of racism unless I was reasonably certain, as it’s a serious accusation.

 

[8lade]

This case bothers me, it seems irrespective of evidence Jones was always going to be found guilty. For those who didn't read the link, 2 players claim to have heard the noises (from everybody on the field and watching) and their statements were inconsistent.

 

[vorpal blade]

I can't see the link, would you re-post it please 8lade ?

there must be a video of this surely, and it's not as if the match would have been played in front of 50000 baying fans obscuring the sounds of the players, where do they play the home matches, Watergate?

 

[JohnDenver]

The FA says...

“The written reasons in the case will be published in due course, which will provide a detailed account of the evidence given and the findings of the commission.”

If these reasons haven’t been published yet then there’s a lot of premature judgements being made here.

 

[vorpal blade]

do you think the video has been taken from the internet for reasons of 'sub-judice' ?

btw. I think sub-judice reasons for not publishing full details of alleged offences are worth rethinking in this country - you only have to think about the Ched Evans case ... where a lot of people seemed to jump to the 'there's no smoke without fire' 'verdict' because the first trial went relatively unreported.

.. and the greater the delay, the more time for the FA to re-arrange the evidence in their favour, don't Sky cover these matches?

 

[Dkc]

I just find it hard to beleive that any professional sportsman or woman would make monkey noises at an opponent, thus risking a ruined career. I don't know the facts of this case but would be very interested in hearing what evidence was presented, and both players' versions of the events. Does the accused player have a history of racism? What did her colleagues on the team say?

Of course, it could be an open and shut case, with lots of players supporting the accuser. But it's difficult to judge without seeing the evidence. If she maintains her innocence, and the evidence against her wouldn't be enough to convict her in court, she should consider legal action.

 

[Sean Thornton]

He may be well intentioned but Lewis sees racism everywhere. He’s convinced that Darren Moore didn’t get as long as other managers would because of his ethnicity. That completely disregards the multitude of white managers who’ve also been sacked when owners panic, including, historically, several of ours and most recently Rowett.
Sacking managers in the championship is commonplace and plenty probably feel they didn’t get enough time.

West Brom’s owners have made a series of really poor decisions since taking over and even if you think sacking Moore was another, I’d suggest it’s more likely due to them not knowing what they’re doing than some inherent racism. Of course I could be wrong but I wouldn’t make accusations of racism unless I was reasonably certain, as it’s a serious accusation.

I remember Chris Kamaras comment when a similar minded journalist asked him if Geoffrey Richmond sacked him because he was black. “I’m sure he knew I was black when he gave me the job” replied CK.

 

[Hackblade]

It would be good to see the report, which the link said would be available later - no doubt when this is largely forgotten.

I suspect most people would support action against racism (although I sometimes wish there were other courses of action than dismissal) but equally most people would like to see a fair process and it's difficult to understand how one or two persons' words against another can count as sufficient evidence for a conviction.

 

[PokerBlade]

I don't know if this woman was guilty or not, but I think it's unfair she was found guilty on the balance of probablity -50.1% is too weak a legal test for shoplifting so it's certainly not strong enough for this charge.

I think it would be wrong to make any strong statement on this particular case until we've seen the full ruling, but as a general point I'm not sure why people think this.

You don't need to prove things beyond all reasonable doubt in a court of law in order to sanction an employee or member of your organisation. I don't think the world could function if that were the case.

 

[BushBlade]

I think it would be wrong to make any strong statement on this particular case until we've seen the full ruling, but as a general point I'm not sure why people think this.

You don't need to prove things beyond all reasonable doubt in a court of law in order to sanction an employee or member of your organisation. I don't think the world could function if that were the case.

You don’t even need to prove beyond reasonable doubt in civil cases. It’s just criminal law.

 

[PokerBlade]

You don’t even need to prove beyond reasonable doubt in civil cases. It’s just criminal law.

I know. People find this very confusing though.

 

[Sheffsteel]

I just find it hard to beleive that any professional sportsman or woman would make monkey noises at an opponent, thus risking a ruined career. I don't know the facts of this case but would be very interested in hearing what evidence was presented

That is exactly what the journalist reporting on “tomorrow’s newspapers tonight” said (see above). He also said monkey noises is incredibly old fashioned and doesn’t even happen on the terraces anymore, he said it’s bizarre to believe a pro footballer, especially a woman would do such a thing.

Darren Lewis (the co presenter on the show) reply was
“well.....mmmm....but I equally find it hard to believe that a black person would make up an accusation about something that is so serious”. Darren Lewis said that we must have faith that the FA are neutral and will have studied all the evidence to make what they deem a fair decision. He said that the guilty person would no doubt have a right of appeal.

 

[BushBlade]

That is exactly what the journalist reporting on “tomorrow’s newspapers” said (see above). He also said monkey noises is incredibly old fashioned and doesn’t even happen on the terraces anymore, he said it’s bizarre to believe a pro footballer, especially a woman would do such a thing.

Darren Lewis (the co presenter on the show) reply was
“well.....mmmm....but I equally find it hard to believe that a black person would make up an accusation about something that is so serious”. Darren Lewis said that no doubt the FA are neutral and will have studied all the evidence and she would have a right of appeal.

I said the same much earlier in the thread. The whole thing sounds unbelievable, I can’t believe she did it but I can’t believe the other player would make it up.

 

[PokerBlade]

I said the same much earlier in the thread. The whole thing sounds unbelievable, I can’t believe she did it but I can’t believe the other player would make it up.

My take too. I could kind of understand racially abusive language because I've both witnessed that happen out of nowhere, and known people that would say almost anything to get a rise out of you in sport. But monkey noises? That seems so out of place for anyone that age that I can't decide whether it's weirder to do or to make up.

 

[8lade]

vorpal blade
This is Jones' take on it
https://www.skysports.com/football/...om-football-and-hits-out-at-fa-for-racism-ban

 

[8lade]

I said the same much earlier in the thread. The whole thing sounds unbelievable, I can’t believe she did it but I can’t believe the other player would make it up.

Speculating here...Spurs were expecting to give United a tanning but it wasn't happening so to gain an advantage you try to get a player sent off. Refs having none of it as he didn't hear anything but it's been said now so you have to keep it going...

 

[BushBlade]

Speculating here...Spurs were expecting to give United a tanning but it wasn't happening so to gain an advantage you try to get a player sent off. Refs having none of it as he didn't hear anything but it's been said now so you have to keep it going...

And your mate is prepared to back you up, knowing it’s going to ruin someone’s career?

Anything’s possible but I don’t find that particularly plausible.

 

[8lade]

You don’t even need to prove beyond reasonable doubt in civil cases. It’s just criminal law.

As an aside based on the above, in anything less then criminal law, so civil law, tribunals etc the arbiter can make any judgement irrespective of how outlandish it is?
So what West Ham got away with is ok and the dry bumming I got when getting divorced seems more understandable now.

 

[8lade]

And your mate is prepared to back you up, knowing it’s going to ruin someone’s career?

Anything’s possible but I don’t find that particularly plausible.

I assume they were happy she'd get hit with the ban and carry on. I respect her principles if you can no longer trust the authority of the game and they have (incorrectly) had you branded as a racist, I think I'd throw it in, this extends beyond the game and I assume there isn't enough financial incentive to allow it to ruin your life outside of football.

 

[Cerberus Blade]

She said the case was heard in a “kangaroo” court. There she goes again you see! I think she means nothing wrong at all. She just has a fondness for animals and sees their resemblance in humans.

 

[vorpal blade]

"The case against Sophie Jones was heard by an Independent Regulatory Commission, comprising two independent lawyers and a former football player and manager." ... Skysports' account of Jones's side of things

how the hell can the FA appoint an 'independent' tribunal - did they offer their services for free?

monkey chants as words with racist intent asks as many questions of Darwinism & linguistics as it does of Miss Jones.

 

[vorpal blade]

And your mate is prepared to back you up, knowing it’s going to ruin someone’s career?

footballers are selfish enough* and dim enough to do this sort of thing - what was that nonsense of racism levelled at Mark Clattenburg those years ago, didn't one player suggest he'd overheard a racist epithet uttered by the ref. at someone else?

and Mason Holgate in my view was quite happy to play the race card against Roberto Firmino just so he wouldn't get sent off for a dangerous & reckless foul on the Liverpool player.

But the Spurs players weren't to know it would end anyone's career anyway. Who knows if the Spurs player was really abused, misconstrued something or made it all up until we see or hear some evidence.

*Look at the endemic cheating in the game.

 

[BushBlade]

As an aside based on the above, in anything less then criminal law, so civil law, tribunals etc the arbiter can make any judgement irrespective of how outlandish it is?
So what West Ham got away with is ok and the dry bumming I got when getting divorced seems more understandable now.

No of course they can’t and you know that as well as I do.

 

[BushBlade]

footballers are selfish enough* and dim enough to do this sort of thing - what was that nonsense of racism levelled at Mark Clattenburg those years ago, didn't one player suggest he'd overheard a racist epithet uttered by the ref. at someone else?

and Mason Holgate in my view was quite happy to play the race card against Roberto Firmino just so he wouldn't get sent off for a dangerous & reckless foul on the Liverpool player.

But the Spurs players weren't to know it would end anyone's career anyway. Who knows if the Spurs player was really abused, misconstrued something or made it all up until we see or hear some evidence.

*Look at the endemic cheating in the game.

I agree which is why I haven’t commented on whether or not I think she did it because I’ve only heard her side of the story, I simply said I find it as hard to believe anyone would do it and hard to believe anyone would make it up.

The idea that you can stereotype all footballers and simply categorise them as all being the same isn’t a view I subscribe to. Just because Holgate may have made it up, or misheard in the heat of the moment isn’t a good indicator that it’s the norm. I know a couple of architects that I’d consider to be incompetent. Does that mean you all are? Would you like to be judged as a person based solely on your profession?

The FA really should be issuing their report. I don’t agree that cases like this should be private when the judgement and punishment are made public.

 

[Scooter_mcgavin]

I agree which is why I haven’t commented on whether or not I think she did it because I’ve only heard her side of the story, I simply said I find it as hard to believe anyone would do it and hard to believe anyone would make it up.

The idea that you can stereotype all footballers and simply categorise them as all being the same isn’t a view I subscribe to. Just because Holgate may have made it up, or misheard in the heat of the moment isn’t a good indicator that it’s the norm. I know a couple of architects that I’d consider to be incompetent. Does that mean you all are? Would you like to be judged as a person based solely on your profession?

The FA really should be issuing their report. I don’t agree that cases like this should be private when the judgement and punishment are made public.

All prostitutes are slappers.

 

[BushBlade]

All prostitutes are slappers.

That’s a very crass comment that doesn’t consider victims of sex trafficking or grooming.

 

[Scooter_mcgavin]

That’s a very crass comment that doesn’t consider victims of sex trafficking or grooming.

You're overthinking things.

 

[BushBlade]

You're overthinking things.

Maybe but, for me, that’s preferable to underthinking things.

 

[Scooter_mcgavin]

Maybe but, for me, that’s preferable to underthinking things.

How about all car mechanics are greasy?

 

[BushBlade]

How about all car mechanics are greasy?

No, not all of the time and it’s not a personality trait. If you’d said useless twats who drag me up to Alperton to pick my car up when they’ve only done half the repairs then I may have agreed. If you’d said all insurance companies are shithouses I’d definitely have agreed.