Incoming? Alexander Blessin

[Ball_Sup (Phil)]

Stay strong brother!! Another wave incoming.

You too. We've not got long. It is becoming virtually impossible to tell whether posters are genuine or parody. Which is how I've been trying to engineer it for a week.

 

[Broomhall Blade]

You lot all getting your knickers in a twist about all these regulations and work permit stuff. Has anyone checked to see if he has any Scottish blood in him ?
I mean they can usually manage to find some in Footballers.
Anyway according to some Pig on Porktalk we are all in mourning after it looks like we have been snubbed by Howe, and apparently he was going to be our saviour.

 

[Flatulent_Bob]

You lot all getting your knickers in a twist about all these regulations and work permit stuff. Has anyone checked to see if he has any Scottish blood in him ?
I mean they can usually manage to find some in Footballers.
Anyway according to some Pig on Porktalk we are all in mourning after it looks like we have been snubbed by Howe, and apparently he was going to be our saviour.

To be fair and balanced I think this thread for the past few days has been about some of our number suggesting the rules don’t apply to us and others suggesting they clearly do.
Basically a continual back and forth of; this is the process, yeah but what if we don’t have to? We do have to. Yeah but what if spaceships and shit? We still have to follow this process. What if the process changes? Then we’d have to follow that process. Yeah but what about those spaceships....

 

[Ball_Sup (Phil)]

• Maybe highlight how few people would actually qualify for a GBE given the quick tenure of football managers spells at clubs, long spells unemployed etc

"It is my client's belief that these laws you have introduced to prevent more murders are actually preventing more murders. They should be overturned immediately."

Strong......

 

[bertieblade]

We may or may not be able to get the main man, whether we can bend the rules and influence enough to enable him to bring his back room staff is possibly one reason why this is being held up

 

[Ball_Sup (Phil)]

Rudders intervention has cheered me up no end. After post after post of "let's pretend he's not a Manager" and "let's pretend the rules don't apply to us" at least we're now refusing to bow to The Man and just telling them their rules are silly.
What we now need are reasons why their rules are silly which aren't sillier than the rules themselves.

 

[Scarebus]

We may or may not be able to get the main man, whether we can bend the rules and influence enough to enable him to bring his back room staff is possibly one reason why this is being held up

Or there may just be nothing going on. No panels, no applications, no rule bending. Just a list of names on a piece of paper stuck to a white board in an empty room.

 

[Flatulent_Bob]

We may or may not be able to get the main man, whether we can bend the rules and influence enough to enable him to bring his back room staff is possibly one reason why this is being held up

I've just posted in shoutbox, the easiest way if he is your man is to lobby the FA to change it to one year experience in the next iteration.
"Why do you think 2 years is so unreasonable?" would be an interesting argument to try and make but it's easier than trying to argue that it's in any way unfair or restrictive.

 

[Ball_Sup (Phil)]

I think there's every chance Duanne Olivier will play for Yorkshire County Cricket Club in the first game of the County Championship this morning. He's in the 12 man squad named yesterday. For the past few years, Duanne has been permitted to live & work in the UK under the so called Kolpak rules. Of course, now we have Brexit, those Kolpak rules don't apply in the UK. So, Duanne has had to apply for, and been granted a Governing Body Endorsement by the England & Wales Cricket Board because he meets the criteria as written down.

 

[LondonBlade89]

I think there's every chance Duanne Olivier will play for Yorkshire County Cricket Club in the first game of the County Championship this morning. He's in the 12 man squad named yesterday. For the past few years, Duanne has been permitted to live & work in the UK under the so called Kolpak rules. Of course, now we have Brexit, those Kolpak rules don't apply in the UK. So, Duanne has had to apply for, and been granted a Governing Body Endorsement by the England & Wales Cricket Board because he meets the criteria as written down.

In theory, could Duanne Olivier manage dem Blades?

 

[Ron_Justice]

What we now need are reasons why their rules are silly which aren't sillier than the rules themselves.

Something, something, better to be sat at the table taking part in the conversation, than listening through a glass to the door, knitting half heard loopholes.

 

[Ball_Sup (Phil)]

worth comparing to other trades like some of those as exemplified on here ie DJ/Nurse etc have far less stringent requirements

It's worth stating a basis underpinning of "our" immigration policy - we're happy to allow well qualified & experienced people to come & work in the UK, particularly in industries where we have skill shortages. Many occupations have, indeed require, formal qualifications. To be a nurse, you have to have nursing qualifications. So, the endorsement for those industries is straightforward. Have you got the qualification? Yes. Show us. That is not the case with football managers. The UEFA licence stands only as a base point. So, in lieu of, as a proxy for, qualifications we have the Governing Body Endorsement. The judgement is - any manager with two years experience of managing in the English Premier League, the Bundesliga, La Liga, Serie A and Ligue 1 is "better qualified" than someone managing for less than a year in Belgium. I have to say, that sounds entirely reasonable. In a ranking list of qualified & experienced managers, he'd be way off in the distance. The rules are designed to keep out inexperienced workers.

 

[Revolution]

It's worth stating a basis underpinning of "our" immigration policy - we're happy to allow well qualified & experienced people to come & work in the UK, particularly in industries where we have skill shortages. Many occupations have, indeed require, formal qualifications. To be a nurse, you have to have nursing qualifications. So, the endorsement for those industries is straightforward. Have you got the qualification? Yes. Show us. That is not the case with football managers. The UEFA licence stands only as a base point. So, in lieu of, as a proxy for, qualifications we have the Governing Body Endorsement. The judgement is - any manager with two years experience of managing in the English Premier League, the Bundesliga, La Liga, Serie A and Ligue 1 is "better qualified" than someone managing for less than a year in Belgium. I have to say, that sounds entirely reasonable. In a ranking list of qualified & experienced managers, he'd be way off in the distance. The rules are designed to keep out inexperienced workers.

As I said in shoutbox earlier, this tends to support the theory that he isn't experienced enough generally to merit consideration as our manager.

 

[Champagneblade]

It makes sense especially post Brexit to protect British jobs.

What's all the concern about? I see Garry Monk is still available!

 

[Ball_Sup (Phil)]

As I said in shoutbox earlier, this tends to support the theory that he isn't experienced enough generally to merit consideration as our manager.

That is an argument that hangs together. Do we want an experienced manager? (if yes) How should we define experienced? (less than one year in Belgium) Fuck Off.....
The Board may, of course, decide that some things are more important than experience (very recent track record, football philosophy, price, character). And they'll have to deal with the fall out.

 

[Snowflake]

In theory, could Duanne Olivier manage dem Blades?

Not before Yorkshire have won the County Championship

 

[ChipButtyBlade]

Flatulent_Bob

 

[Ball_Sup (Phil)]

When is the Ball_Sup (Phil) panel sitting and formulating a response?

Phil not here. Gone (checks notes) Court of Arbitration for Sport (CAS) with Rudders

 

[Flatulent_Bob]

Flatulent_Bob

View attachment 110122

Why are spaceships always build so ergonomically? What drag are they expecting?

 

[Rodley]

I think it’s fair to say there is one poster who is determined to obstruct Blessin passing through the immigration process.

 

[S64 Blade]

Hi mate. Everyone who lives & works in another country needs the permission of that country to do that work. That is what Blessin will have to apply for. Permission to live & work here.
(also, although you make the point about flying, maybe he'll come on a ferry)

I realise they need permission. My point being that football continually finds loopholes and special dispensations that the rest of society has to adhere to.

 

[Flatulent_Bob]

I realise they need permission. My point being that football continually finds loopholes and special dispensations that the rest of society has to adhere to.

Apart from that it's the football community (the FA) who have written this criteria to protect British coaches and managers from unqualified labour from abroad.

 

[Ball_Sup (Phil)]

I realise they need permission. My point being that football continually finds loopholes and special dispensations that the rest of society has to adhere to.

As I hope people realise. I'm not here to fall out with any body. Sorry, thanks for explaining, I now see your point, which I had misunderstood originally

 

[MobileBlade]

It's worth stating a basis underpinning of "our" immigration policy - we're happy to allow well qualified & experienced people to come & work in the UK, particularly in industries where we have skill shortages. Many occupations have, indeed require, formal qualifications. To be a nurse, you have to have nursing qualifications. So, the endorsement for those industries is straightforward. Have you got the qualification? Yes. Show us. That is not the case with football managers. The UEFA licence stands only as a base point. So, in lieu of, as a proxy for, qualifications we have the Governing Body Endorsement. The judgement is - any manager with two years experience of managing in the English Premier League, the Bundesliga, La Liga, Serie A and Ligue 1 is "better qualified" than someone managing for less than a year in Belgium. I have to say, that sounds entirely reasonable. In a ranking list of qualified & experienced managers, he'd be way off in the distance. The rules are designed to keep out inexperienced workers.

To use your argument though (sorry just being pedantic) - I could have my nursing qualification but no other experience other than trotting round a few wards with a doctor (sorry, I know it takes much more than this to get the qualification but just for the sake of this argument). I could do the UEFA Pro licence which does actually take some time and you have to do it whilst in a role because there are practical requirements and have already taken the C, B and A license qualification (which is 720 hours of education in total on top of the practical and the assignments). So you could argue that the 2 years of managing at the top level is stringent against other industries.

This was actually covered in the Daily Mail back in February (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/f...es-threaten-change-face-English-football.html) so it should not really be brand new to United two months later. And if they don't fancy the Mail, it was in the Guardian in December (https://www.theguardian.com/football/2020/dec/28/football-and-brexit-a-guide-to-the-new-rules).

 

[S64 Blade]

Apart from that it's the football community (the FA) who have written this criteria to protect British coaches and managers from unqualified labour from abroad.

Yes, the FA have a long history of actually applying their rules properly.

 

[vas borbokis]

Yeah but ...what if etc.

Could this be a workaround?

If Utd and Blessin/Hecky/Tindall were agreeable to it, could we employ him as our (well paid) Assistant Head Coach, "nominally" sub-ordinate to say Heckingbottom or Tindall for a suitable period, learning the role and taking increasing control, until he can become named a head coach in his own right under UK residency criteria?
Edit. Sort of on probation...

 

[Ball_Sup (Phil)]

To use your argument though (sorry just being pedantic) - I could have my nursing qualification but no other experience other than trotting round a few wards with a doctor (sorry, I know it takes much more than this to get the qualification but just for the sake of this argument). I could do the UEFA Pro licence which does actually take some time and you have to do it whilst in a role because there are practical requirements and have already taken the C, B and A license qualification (which is 720 hours of education in total on top of the practical and the assignments). So you could argue that the 2 years of managing at the top level is stringent against other industries.

This was actually covered in the Daily Mail back in February (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/f...es-threaten-change-face-English-football.html) so it should not really be brand new to United two months later. And if they don't fancy the Mail, it was in the Guardian in December (https://www.theguardian.com/football/2020/dec/28/football-and-brexit-a-guide-to-the-new-rules).

Thanks. Good explanation. The time for the FA to make the point to the FA that the FAs stipulation of two years management is stringent compared to other industries would have been while the FA were consulting with the industry to draw up the rule. In that way, the rule would have never been written. Because, once it is written, there is an impression they may have already thought about whether it is stringent Viz other industries, considered it deeply & concluded it is not stringent.

 

[MobileBlade]

Thanks. Good explanation. The time for the FA to make the point to the FA that the FAs stipulation of two years management is stringent compared to other industries would have been while the FA were consulting with the industry to draw up the rule. In that way, the rule would have never been written. Because, once it is written, there is an impression they may have already thought about whether it is stringent Viz other industries, considered it deeply & concluded it is not stringent.

I agree. But at the same time, when things are written on a whim, they don't always get it right the first time. Having spent the last 12 months dealing with Furlough cases, I think we are currently on version 18 of the rules by way of example!

 

[Ball_Sup (Phil)]

Yeah but ...what if etc.

Could this be a workaround?

If Utd and Blessin/Hecky/Tindall were agreeable to it, could we employ him as our (well paid) Assistant Head Coach, "nominally" sub-ordinate to say Heckingbottom or Tindall for a suitable period, learning the role and taking increasing control, until he can become named a head coach in his own right under UK residency criteria?
Edit. Sort of on probation...

There are regulations covering every job in the UK. So that we can protect UK workers. And yes, there are published regulations specifically on Assistant Head Coach. Blessin could indeed apply for a Governing Body Endorsement as Assistant Head Coach. He would need to meet paragraph 16.d.i of those regulations. That is he would need to have managed in a top league for a minimum of 24 months. Which he hasn't.

The Football Association - Governing Body Endorsement Requirements for Men’s Team Assistant Manager

16. An Assistant Manager will only be granted a GBE if:
a) The Assistant Manager will have Partial Responsibility for the first team of the applicant club.
b) The Assistant Manager holds a UEFA ‘A’ licence/diploma or equivalent.
c) The applicant club does not have an Existing Assistant Manager. Where a club has been issued with a GBE for an Existing Assistant Manager, a GBE will not be granted in respect of a new Manager until the previous GBE has been rescinded.
d) The Assistant Manager has:
i. Managed a club in a Top League for the Prescribed Time; or
ii. Managed an international team for the Prescribed Time which had an Aggregated FIFA World Ranking of 50 or above for the entire Prescribed Time.

 

[Ball_Sup (Phil)]

I agree. But at the same time, when things are written on a whim, they don't always get it right the first time. Having spent the last 12 months dealing with Furlough cases, I think we are currently on version 18 of the rules by way of example!

Indeed. But a strategy of relying on a manager who we can only appoint if we tell the FA that there rules are wrong has some drawbacks.