Academy slowing up?

[Barney]

But how do you benchmark an academy without comparing it to the other academies when there isn't a set quota of expected first team professional footballers a year to measure against? Year groups and individuals obvious differ in quality and their development isn't always as predictable as you'd like.

Of the players you mentioned, all made their debuts older than Louis Reed. Without checking the numbers, I'd say Quinn, Walker and Naughton definitely made their debut older than Reedy is today. Lowton started in the first team 4 years older than Reedy, having already been sent out to Ferencvaros with his contract expiring. I'm not saying Reedy will have a career on par or better than any of the above, but it's certainly too early to say - you sound like you've written him off.

You've only mentioned 7 players spanning 11 years, so how many of their quality would you expect us to produce over what period of time?

You're still missing the point. There's less coming through, and those that are, are of much lesser quality.

I'm not completely writing Reed off, but he's done absolutely nothing to prove he was worthy of the step up to the senior squad.

What noticeable things does he do when he comes on? Other than pass it sideways/backwards as soon as he gets it.

 

[SUFC Handsworth]

Reed's a class act, I think he proved that at White Hart Lane last season plus many other games. Like any young player his performances will be up and down.

Where United have gone wrong is not building a team around the players that have come up through the ranks. A team including Walker, Naughton, Lowton, Maguire, Quinn, Sharp, Reed wouldn't be getting shit kicked in their face every week in the third division, be top end Championship at least. Thanks McCabe.

 

[wizadry]

I think wizardry is right

 

[wizadry]

Reed's a class act, I think he proved that at White Hart Lane last season plus many other games. Like any young player his performances will be up and down.

Where United have gone wrong is not building a team around the players that have come up through the ranks. A team including Walker, Naughton, Lowton, Maguire, Quinn, Sharp, Reed wouldn't be getting shit kicked in their face every week in the third division, be top end Championship at least. Thanks McCabe.

What you moaning about? We're still on a level playing field financial wise and we still have a club in Sheffield that's doing well for the city

 

[Silent Blade]

Has anyone else noticed the difference in quality? Kyle Walker, Kyle Naughton, Jagielka, Matt Lowton, Harry Maguire, Quinn and Tongue to the point where the only academy graduates pushing for a place in the first eleven are the likes of Louis Reed.

The difference in quality is considerable. The players we're seemingly looking to bring through now are noticeably smaller and weaker. Louis Reed is the epiphany of that. Smaller, weaker, less talented. You'd have thought playing at a lower level would help the younger players come through. The academy's drop in performance levels are beginning to co-incide with that of the senior squad, and that's got to be unsettling.

Havent you heard of the EPPP? The PL have forced this. Now our (also Wendy) Academy are in category two which means PL clubs can pinch our best players for little compensation

 

[Silent Blade]

How are we quantifying this?


We've also recently been independently classed as the 8th best.

In what terms? Being in Category two, will we remain the 8th best in the next few years? Doubt it!

 

[Silent Blade]

Here is why the Premier League clubs LOVE the EPPP

http://www.westernmorningnews.co.uk...ording-Brent/story-24628525-detail/story.html

 

[crucialkneeligaman]

Has anyone else noticed the difference in quality? Kyle Walker, Kyle Naughton, Jagielka, Matt Lowton, Harry Maguire, Quinn and Tongue to the point where the only academy graduates pushing for a place in the first eleven are the likes of Louis Reed.

The difference in quality is considerable. The players we're seemingly looking to bring through now are noticeably smaller and weaker. Louis Reed is the epiphany of that. Smaller, weaker, less talented. You'd have thought playing at a lower level would help the younger players come through. The academy's drop in performance levels are beginning to co-incide with that of the senior squad, and that's got to be unsettling.

Too early to give up on the Academy BB. I remember when Jags was a bit shaky during his early appearances for us until he got a bit more established and played in the right position. I still have high hopes for the 3 lads who played against Rotherham a couple of seasons ago, and DCL starting to get himself noticed at Northampton, as he did in earlier loan appearances for Stalybridge.

 

[SwissBlade]

I think you're missing the point. It's perfectly reasonable to judge an academy's performance based on how regularly players of quality are coming through. There used to be quite a few, and now there isn't. I don't think it requires production rates and ratings to know that, just a regular attendance of first team games.

On that basis then we've got a high number...

Reed, Diego, dimaio, Calvert lewin have all played first team in the last year.

Going back to your original post you included Tonge, Quinn and Jags so how long are they required to be in the Academy... Just to quantify it a bit, not being critical of these players as I believe we brought them through...

 

[Kev Gee]

Dom Calvert next?

Dont write these players off.

 

[Silent Blade]

Going back to your original post you included Tonge, Quinn and Jags so how long are they required to be in the Academy... Just to quantify it a bit, not being critical of these players as I believe we brought them through...

Jags and Quinn were never in our Academy (started from 2001) and Tonge played in only a handful of u19s matches

 

[PeterNdlovu081]

Interesting stat.

Michael Tonge has only scored 28 league goals in his entire career.

 

[SwissBlade]

Jags and Quinn were never in our Academy (started from 2001) and Tonge played in only a handful of u19s matches

Yeah but we brought them through to professional football...

 

[SwissBlade]

Interesting stat.

Michael Tonge has only scored 28 league goals in his entire career.

Considering he's done feck all since leaving us that doesn't surprise me

 

[Houston_Blade]

While this is a negative post I still think we can salvage a debate out of it.

I know one of the top ex-academy coaches fairly well, he now works for the Pigs (albeit in a lesser role as he's getting towards retirement) and has been to Leicester in between. Having spoken to him a few times on the academy pipeline he says that they definitely had a purple patch a few years ago when he was 2nd in command and it was drying up in terms of top class players as he left the club, he'll claim that the players mentioned in the OP would be playing in the Sunday league was it not for him and calls them "his boys" still (which is always taken with a pinch of salt by me).

Notably the academy management team unsurprisingly used to clash with NW as he wanted the players bringing up the "blood and thunder" way, whereas the ethos at the time was to breed talent not just winners (although one should presumably lead to the other).

I do think it's hard to retain the levels we had given that we probably had some unique methods 10/12 years ago that now will have been replicated by other as a result of the success. He does still say that the Pigs are some way behind in terms of academy infrastructure and networks but they are steadily getting there. He did say that we were comparable with Leicester, however we had more players in the first team due to the league we were playing in at the time (Championship for those who can still remember when we were in it?!).

 

[Silent Blade]

Yeah but we brought them through to professional football...

Jags and Tonge were released by Everton and Man U when they were 15/16.

 

[Foxy]

Jags and Tonge were released by Everton and Man U when they were 15/16.

Different scenario and point, but funnily enough, Reedy was taken to Man U for a bit as a nipper, before coming back.

 

[Silent Blade]

Different scenario and point, but funnily enough, Reedy was taken to Man U for a bit as a nipper, before coming back.

How many were at SUFC from the age of 11 that made it to the first team? Walker, Naughton and Maguire? Only Danny Ramsey and Jorome Slew out of those born between 1/9/97 and 31/8/98 have been at the Academy for more than a few years.

 

[Revolution]

How many were at SUFC from the age of 11 that made it to the first team? Walker, Naughton and Maguire? Only Danny Ramsey and Jorome Slew out of those born between 1/9/97 and 31/8/98 have been at the Academy for more than a few years.

Ben Doane and Lee Morris were both in the under 9Junior Blades team and went right through to the first team, though that pre-dates the academy.

One thing I agree with Barnyblade about: if you line up an academy team from last season or the season before, you'll notice how small they all are. We don't seem to be producing many physically imposing players.

United's record on getting goals out of home grown strikers in the last 30 years is also pathetic. Unless I'm forgetting someone I think Lee Morris, with 6 league goals, has scored the most of any striker brought into the team from the youth ranks in that time (Billy has more, of course, but we had to pay to get him back twice). A few were given up on too early in that time (Mendonca, Sharp, maybe Slew) but that's an incredibly poor run.

 

[secretchief]

Ben Doane and Lee Morris were both in the under 9Junior Blades team and went right through to the first team, though that pre-dates the academy.

Oh man, my moment has finally come.

I was in Ben Doane's team in junior blades under 10s (it started at under 10, not under 9), and Lee Morris wasn't in it then.

He was at the trial day but didn't make the cut (funnily enough I played on the left wing that season which became his default position as a professional, so you could say I was picked ahead of him).

I believe he was acquired at a later stage from a team outside Sheffield, but that was after my time.

 

[mosbolad]

Louis Reed is the epiphany of that

noun, plural epiphanies.
1. (initial capital letter) a Christian festival, observed on January 6, commemorating the manifestation of Christ to the gentiles in the persons of the Magi; Twelfth-day.
2. an appearance or manifestation, especially of a deity.
3. a sudden, intuitive perception of or insight into the reality or essential meaning of something, usually initiated by some simple, homely, or commonplace occurrence or experience.
4. a literary work or section of a work presenting, usually symbolically, such a moment of revelation and insight.

Excellent point Barmyblade

 

[mosbolad]

You're still missing the point. There's less coming through

Come on Barmy, it's 'fewer' not 'less'.

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/words/

You really must try harder.......
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/words/less-or-fewer

 

[1danewhitehouse]

Louis Reed is the epiphany of that. .

 

[1danewhitehouse]

It’s difficult to assess when looking at a 3-4 year period. Let’s face it, the YC final team are still only 21 so it’s hard to say we should have had a load more come through since then. I think given the variable nature of player development, you’d need a bigger sample to say whether there has been a decline. You’d probably have to leave it another 5 years and see if anyone has broken in before we can assess the productivity. There have been lulls in the past. Whitehouse/Ward etc- big gap, then Woodhouse and Morris- Big gap- then Monty, Jags, Tonge- gap- then Quinn- gap- then Naughton, Walker and Lowton- gap- the YC final team.


It’s not like every year group produces a first team regular and for every Phil Jagielka we see plenty of Kingsley James, Ryan Mallon, Ben Doane, Adam Burley, John Reed, Matt Harriett, Ian Ross, Dominic Roma, Jonathan Forte, Nicky Law, Elliott Whitehouse, Nathaniel Foster, Evan Horwood, Kevan Hurst, Travis Binnion, Connor Brown etc. type players that for one reason or another, don’t make it.


For what it’s worth, I think we would have our next academy superstar on our hands (probably sold by now) if DdG hadn’t suffered that horrendous injury. Jamie McDonagh’s leg break will have certainly set him back too. We now have Reed and DCL who look very promising. Let’s hope they kick on.


My only concerns are


1. When players het to 17/18 and start getting involved with the senior squad, the standard we are playing at will not help their development as much as if we were in the top two tiers. Same goes for the players they are training with.


2. EPPP means that there is less financial value in producing players meaning we might scale back academy expenditure thus making us less productive.


3. There’s a pressure to get out of this league every season leading to managers going for experience much of the time and not giving these kids a chance to gain valuable first team experience. League 1 & 2 sides are less likely to loan players not getting in League 1 teams when they can go for championship youngsters. Ottis Khan looked very useful in his cameo v Rotherham and I was looking forward to seeing him as a regular on the bench in 2014/15 and hopefully forcing his way in but we signed JCR, Davies, Coutts etc on top of Flynn and Murphy which left him nowhere near.


4. A lot of our academy players do seem small. We seem to be looking for the next Xavi. I think it’s an admirable way to bring the youth through (focusing on skills over size and strength) but perhaps a better balance could be drawn to look for some raw athletes to mould like Kyle Walker.


5. The chopping and changing in management both in academy and first team level means there is less continuity in the way the players are being developed and this might hinder their progress.

 

[Trigger Blade]

I think the OP epiphanises barnyblade's attitude to everything SUFC.....

 

[Sean Thornton]

"Predictive text". Nailed on.

 

[LoughboroBlade]

Interesting stat.

Michael Tonge has only scored 28 league goals in his entire career.

That's sort of like pointing out that Michael Brown scored 65% of his career league goals with us despite only being with us for 30% of his league career. We do manage to catch some players during a particularly decent spell of their careers from time to time.

 

[Silent Blade]

It’s difficult to assess when looking at a 3-4 year period. Let’s face it, the YC final team are still only 21 so it’s hard to say we should have had a load more come through since then. I think given the variable nature of player development, you’d need a bigger sample to say whether there has been a decline. You’d probably have to leave it another 5 years and see if anyone has broken in before we can assess the productivity. There have been lulls in the past. Whitehouse/Ward etc- big gap, then Woodhouse and Morris- Big gap- then Monty, Jags, Tonge- gap- then Quinn- gap- then Naughton, Walker and Lowton- gap- the YC final team.


It’s not like every year group produces a first team regular and for every Phil Jagielka we see plenty of Kingsley James, Ryan Mallon, Ben Doane, Adam Burley, John Reed, Matt Harriett, Ian Ross, Dominic Roma, Jonathan Forte, Nicky Law, Elliott Whitehouse, Nathaniel Foster, Evan Horwood, Kevan Hurst, Travis Binnion, Connor Brown etc. type players that for one reason or another, don’t make it.


For what it’s worth, I think we would have our next academy superstar on our hands (probably sold by now) if DdG hadn’t suffered that horrendous injury. Jamie McDonagh’s leg break will have certainly set him back too. We now have Reed and DCL who look very promising. Let’s hope they kick on.


My only concerns are


1. When players het to 17/18 and start getting involved with the senior squad, the standard we are playing at will not help their development as much as if we were in the top two tiers. Same goes for the players they are training with.


2. EPPP means that there is less financial value in producing players meaning we might scale back academy expenditure thus making us less productive.


3. There’s a pressure to get out of this league every season leading to managers going for experience much of the time and not giving these kids a chance to gain valuable first team experience. League 1 & 2 sides are less likely to loan players not getting in League 1 teams when they can go for championship youngsters. Ottis Khan looked very useful in his cameo v Rotherham and I was looking forward to seeing him as a regular on the bench in 2014/15 and hopefully forcing his way in but we signed JCR, Davies, Coutts etc on top of Flynn and Murphy which left him nowhere near.


4. A lot of our academy players do seem small. We seem to be looking for the next Xavi. I think it’s an admirable way to bring the youth through (focusing on skills over size and strength) but perhaps a better balance could be drawn to look for some raw athletes to mould like Kyle Walker.


5. The chopping and changing in management both in academy and first team level means there is less continuity in the way the players are being developed and this might hinder their progress.

I would scrap the Academy but keep the u21s team, our centre at Shirecliffe to be kept as our training centre but also run it as if it is a sports centre for the evenings and at weekends. Increase the scouting to watch Category 1 Academy matches and watch out for those who were unlucky not to be offered a pro contract and invite them to play for our u21s

 

[PeteBlade]

The original post shows a distinct lack of understanding of how academy football and academies in general work.

Also, since the Class of '92, Man Utd's academy has really slowed down.

 

[Rodders]

One thing I agree with Barnyblade about: if you line up an academy team from last season or the season before, you'll notice how small they all are. We don't seem to be producing many physically imposing players.[/b]

Just on this point, is this a problem with United or with English football as a whole? We seem to have no confidence in ourselves and what football we should play - I can easily imagine we (and others no doubt) have brought through a bunch of smaller kids just due to the success of Barcelona/Spain over the last few years. Given Germany are now flavour of the month, I predict a bunch of big lads in the position where Reed, Calvert-Lewin are now.