Academy prospects

[Silent Blade]

Of course, United could field a team of Academy Graduates who I think would have a shot at automatic promotion from the Championship.

 

[Sean Thornton]

Yes I agree.

I thought they all looked promising at one stage. And of course we’ve had the two Kyles in the not too distant past as well. But realistically the majority, even at that level, won’t go on to make it at the level of football we’re at now.

My son’s been a decent standard in terms of Sheffield junior league football. He’s gone on to Uni now and plays for one the Uni teams. But he’s nowhere near the standard to make the first 11. Probably not even in the top 100. He tells me the first 11 are all “Academy” players with professional clubs. The difference in skill/ability between him and them is a gulf. Then you have an even bigger gulf between them and those who make it at the professional level.

I was never anywhere near good enough to be a professional footballer. At school I was in the top 22 let’s say in my school of over 2000 kids. So top 10%. I played occasionally for the first 11 and regularly in the second 11. I reached the dizzy heights of the Midlands League and played (very briefly) for Alfreton Town. But I was astonished how much better those kids were than me. I couldn’t live with them.

Must be fantastic to be the best of the best at something you love, but it doesn’t come easy in any walk of life.

But no we shouldn’t think for one moment of scrapping the Academy. That’s barmy to me. There will be another Tonge, Naughton, Walker, Maguire, Brooks, along in the next 5 years and he will pay for the others and some of the first team as well.

You said you only played at pub league level.

 

[Cerberus Blade]

You said you only played at pub league level.

I have said before that I played for Alfreton Town - (and I did!) It didn’t last long. It was only on trial and they didn’t phone me back to ask me to sign for them! So no, I don’t really count that as having established myself as a player at that level. I was nowhere near good enough to play regularly at that level. As I’ve clearly admitted!

I played most (not all) of my football in the Sheffield pub leagues.

Is that clearer now or do you want to trawl back through your records of my previous posts and try and find some other small detail to try and contradict me on - strange person!

 

[Sean Thornton]

I have said before that I played for Alfreton Town - (and I did!) It didn’t last long. It was only on trial and they didn’t phone me back to ask me to sign for them! So no, I don’t really count that as having established myself as a player at that level. I was nowhere near good enough to play regularly at that level. As I’ve clearly admitted!

I played most (not all) of my football in the Sheffield pub leagues.

Is that clearer now or do you want to trawl back through your records of my previous posts and try and find some other small detail to try and contradict me on - strange person!

"Played" is now "on trial" - for 45 minutes?

Midlands League is hardly pub league football or wasn't then.

Was Rob Brady in the team?

You've got plenty of form for bullshit.

 

[IMABLADE]

Johnson is 28

He's just getting used to first team football

 

[JackSUFC]

Our academy is one of the best in the country and we should be proud of it. Anyone who says otherwise needs to give their head a wobble.

Wasn’t there that stat last season about our academy graduates playing the 3rd or 4th highest amounts of minutes in the PL last season?

We aren’t going to produce a David Brooks every single year. No club does, unless you’re Ajax.

 

[Barney]

Not looking good for the academy at present, not many players ready to be introduced to the first team it seems. Hopefully that will change soon enough.

 

[Sothall_Blade]

Of course, United could field a team of Academy Graduates who I think would have a shot at automatic promotion from the Championship.

_________Ramsdale
____Walker Jagielka Maguire
Lowton Reed S.Quinn Naughton
_________Brooks
_______Sharp Adams

Who would be in your team as a matter of interest.
Have I missed anyone? We look a bit weak in central midfield.

P.S. Before anyone says it, I know Sharp and Adams (and maybe others) aren't "Academy graduates" but they came through the ranks.

 

[Ball_Sup (Phil)]

_________Ramsdale
____Walker Jagielka Maguire
Lowton Reed S.Quinn Naughton
_________Brooks
_______Sharp Adams

Who would be in your team as a matter of interest.
Have I missed anyone? We look a bit weak in central midfield.

P.S. Before anyone says it, I know Sharp and Adams (and maybe others) aren't "Academy graduates" but they came through the ranks.

Yes. Sorry Sothall_Blade. On threads like this, I always use an inflammatory post, so I can make the following point. Henderson, Baldock, Stevens, O'Connell, Egan, Basham, Norwood, Fleck, Duffy, McGoldrick & Sharp are ALL Academy Graduates. Just not necessarily from our Academy. Academies are important, they teach kids to play football. Without Academy football, O'Connell wouldn't be the player he is. It's an Inconvenient Truth - some of our Academy Graduates make it elsewhere & some of our stars Graduated from another Academy.

 

[JackSUFC]

_________Ramsdale
____Walker Jagielka Maguire
Lowton Reed S.Quinn Naughton
_________Brooks
_______Sharp Adams

Who would be in your team as a matter of interest.
Have I missed anyone? We look a bit weak in central midfield.

P.S. Before anyone says it, I know Sharp and Adams (and maybe others) aren't "Academy graduates" but they came through the ranks.

Adams is a tenuous one. Swap him for Dominic Calvert-Lewin.

 

[Booker4]

I'll assume "scrap the Academy" comments are parody or tongue in cheek. The thing is, the next time a Brooks comes along, he'll need someone to pass it to him, & someone to make runs & someone to hold midfield & enforce for him while he drifts wide. The hundreds of other players at the Academy might not make it, but they're necessary so that others can make it.

I hear Reece Yorke is a decent prospect Phil? Probably not ready yet though but one for the future?

 

[Ball_Sup (Phil)]

I'm afraid Booker4 that I don't do "decent prospect". I'm reasonably OK at knowing whether a player is playing well. But, useless at knowing whether he might make it in the game. I did include some short notes about Reece in my latest Blog. He started 33 of the Under 23s 34 games this season, and came on as a sub in the other. I think that says a lot about Reece as a player & about what the coaches think of him. He's a very good, honest solid grafter. All Hail That. Essentially a midfield player, he's occasionally pushed up in games (we've struggled for starting forwards a bit this season). Nothing to find fault with. Gets in games, stays in games.

 

[Redhead]

My point was that all of them are playing at a level much lower than top end Championship and all of them are struggling to get in their sides. This would suggest to most people that they are not good enough at the moment to play for United. However, Football Dads, like Stage Mums, don't think like normal people.

I fully understand your point but please accept that while your argument looks great on paper the facts of why a player in his first season on loan may not play week in week out are not always known.

I will repeat, Harry Kane played 18 games at Orient in his first season. Regan Slater 39 games in his, Callum Semple 30 in his, RND 26 in his.

I think most parents of players who have reached professional football fully understand what it’s all about. Maybe the ones that don’t make it are the dillusional ones.

Semple, Gilmour and Hallam have obviously been told they are not up to standard but again I am sure they are all a lot happier making their own way in the game and earning a good living.

SUFC have moved forward faster in 18 months than these players development..... great for supporters, not so great for academy players.

 

[Silent Blade]

SUFC have moved forward faster in 18 months than these players development..... great for supporters, not so great for academy players.

So you are praying that we would go backwards to League 1 status which would be great for the academy players?

 

[EddieColquhoun]

I fully understand your point but please accept that while your argument looks great on paper the facts of why a player in his first season on loan may not play week in week out are not always known.

I will repeat, Harry Kane played 18 games at Orient in his first season. Regan Slater 39 games in his, Callum Semple 30 in his, RND 26 in his.

I think most parents of players who have reached professional football fully understand what it’s all about. Maybe the ones that don’t make it are the dillusional ones.

Semple, Gilmour and Hallam have obviously been told they are not up to standard but again I am sure they are all a lot happier making their own way in the game and earning a good living.

SUFC have moved forward faster in 18 months than these players development..... great for supporters, not so great for academy players.

You keep referring to an 18 year old Harry Kane. Was his Dad on Spurs fans forums criticising their manager for not playing him?
When he was 19 he played in the Premier League and the Europa League.
You said you'd rather have Harvey Gilmour than Kieran Dowell. Since then Gilmour hasn't started at League 2 level. It's easy to come on a forum criticising Wilder and making outlandish claims, but he's a successful manager who has to live by his decisions.

 

[Ball_Sup (Phil)]

Just to say, part of supporting Sheffield United for me is to be pleased for, & proud of, our Academy Graduates as they go on to try & make their way in the game. At whatever level that is - Dominic CL at Everton, CJ Hamilton at Mansfield, Semple in Dingwall, whatever, wherever

 

[8lade]

Our Academy is Category 2 due to the EPPP ruling a few years ago and since then Category 1 Academies have been taking our best players

Point of order and from the mouth of the great KMc himself; it doesn't matter if you have a Cat 1 academy, if you have a player another Cat 1 academy (let's say Man City or Chelsea) want they will almost certainly entice him away.

 

[Houston_Blade]

Johnson is 28

I think he meant 'footballing age', Johnson is about 4.

 

[Redhead]

You keep referring to an 18 year old Harry Kane. Was his Dad on Spurs fans forums criticising their manager for not playing him?
When he was 19 he played in the Premier League and the Europa League.
You said you'd rather have Harvey Gilmour than Kieran Dowell. Since then Gilmour hasn't started at League 2 level. It's easy to come on a forum criticising Wilder and making outlandish claims, but he's a successful manager who has to live by his decisions.

Looking back at your views on this, anyone who dares have an opinion on young players seems to really get to you. Not sure whether you were released as a kid or maybe have had a son who was released. Either way I couldnt give a shit.

At every stage I have always said that CW has the final decision and can not be critised as he has done a wonderful job since arriving. I am allowed as a season ticket holder of many years to have my own opinions. Just as you have.

I am not going to argue with you. If you look at my previous comment you will see I was agreeing with you. Instead you go off on one.

Wilder gets far more criticsing from others on the forum than I give him, but if you are going to wet yourself eveytime someone has a dig at him then get the fucking nappies out. It will save you plenty of soiled Y Fronts.

Lets agree to disagree and get down to the serious business tomorrow.

 

[Balham]

So you are praying that we would go backwards to League 1 status which would be great for the academy players?

He said nothing of the sort Silent, stop being disingenuous. He made a very valid point - the same one Ball_Sup (Phil) has made repeatedly - that understandably our first team progress over the past 36 months has left the academy behind. Semple, Hallam, Gilour and Slater are clearly League Two/League One standard which is where we were two years ago. They're not top end Championship quality (yet): nobody is suggesting that they are or that we should pretend that they are.

The deals which took Semple, Hallam and Gilmour to their new clubs all included clauses to allow United to bring them back* if their progress means they are good enough at some point in the future.

*I appreciate that the players could decline the move

 

[Redhead]

So you are praying that we would go backwards to League 1 status which would be great for the academy players?

If thats the level you are going to come back with then this is a waste of time.

Clearly, I said the club has moved faster than the development of the current and recent academy players. Did I say I wanted the club to go backwards? No .....

Academy players have to be up to the standard required for what ever league the first team is in. If they are not they need to start their careers at a level which will make them a living out of the game

Does that explain it a bit better for you?

 

[Silent Blade]

He said nothing of the sort Silent, stop being disingenuous. He made a very valid point - the same one Ball_Sup (Phil) has made repeatedly - that understandably our first team progress over the past 36 months has left the academy behind. Semple, Hallam, Gilour and Slater are clearly League Two/League One standard which is where we were two years ago. They're not top end Championship quality (yet): nobody is suggesting that they are or that we should pretend that they are.

The deals which took Semple, Hallam and Gilmour to their new clubs all included clauses to allow United to bring them back* if their progress means they are good enough at some point in the future.

*I appreciate that the players could decline the move

If thats the level you are going to come back with then this is a waste of time.

Clearly, I said the club has moved faster than the development of the current and recent academy players. Did I say I wanted the club to go backwards? No .....

Academy players have to be up to the standard required for what ever league the first team is in. If they are not they need to start their careers at a level which will make them a living out of the game

Does that explain it a bit better for you?

Since the EPPP ruling a few years ago, it is harder for us to keep our best Academy players from u8s to u16s

 

[EddieColquhoun]

Either way I couldnt give a shit.

get the fucking nappies out. It will save you plenty of soiled Y Fronts.

Classy response.

 

[Ball_Sup (Phil)]

Since the EPPP ruling a few years ago, it is harder for us to keep our best Academy players from u8s to u16s

Silent Blade Have you got any example names for these best Academy players who we have lost because of that ruling?

 

[Redhead]

Classy response.

Sorry for the classless reply.

At least I didnt have a go at Wilder. You can sleep easy.

 

[Silent Blade]

Silent Blade Have you got any example names for these best Academy players who we have lost because of that ruling?

From a coach who used to work at SUFC and then SWFC Academy about 10 years ago but he still kept in touch with SUFC Academy coaches. He gets a lot of info of Academies at both Sheffield clubs, Barnsley and Huddersfield but I am not sure in the last two years as he has been ill. When the EPPP was accepted by the EPL clubs in October 2011, it was he who explained what EPPP meant and he warned me that it would be harder for SUFC to produce as many outstanding youngsters as we did between 2001 and 2011. A few years ago he told me that an outstanding 10 or 11 year old kid was taken from us by Manchester City due to EPPP. About 6 years he told me that Academy coaches were paid £35 per hour so I wouldnt be surprised if it is now £50 per hour. Brentford have closed their Academy and Huddersfield have downgraded theirs cos it wasnt making much money. Wendy's Academy had not been producing many 1st team players so two years ago Chansiri decided to upgrade it but they are still having youngsters on loan from PL clubs.

Since Maguire the only decent youngster we have had is Brooks who we got from another PL club when he was 16. DCL is another but we decided to cash in the offer from Everton (also the offer from Birmingham for Adams) which helped us to buy the players we needed to get promotion

 

[Ball_Sup (Phil)]

From a coach who used to work at SUFC and then SWFC Academy about 10 years ago but he still kept in touch with SUFC Academy coaches. He gets a lot of info of Academies at both Sheffield clubs, Barnsley and Huddersfield but I am not sure in the last two years as he has been ill. When the EPPP was accepted by the EPL clubs in October 2011, it was he who explained what EPPP meant and he warned me that it would be harder for SUFC to produce as many outstanding youngsters as we did between 2001 and 2011. A few years ago he told me that an outstanding 10 or 11 year old kid was taken from us by Manchester City due to EPPP. About 6 years he told me that Academy coaches were paid £35 per hour so I wouldnt be surprised if it is now £50 per hour. Brentford have closed their Academy and Huddersfield have downgraded theirs cos it wasnt making much money. Wendy's Academy had not been producing many 1st team players so two years ago Chansiri decided to upgrade it but they are still having youngsters on loan from PL clubs.

Since Maguire the only decent youngster we have had is Brooks who we got from another PL club when he was 16. DCL is another but we decided to cash in the offer from Everton (also the offer from Birmingham for Adams) which helped us to buy the players we needed to get promotion

Silent Blade Thanks for that. Naturally, I'd be very interested to hear the name of any Player X, who was nicked from our Academy, and went on to play Premier League or Champions League. But, I suppose the nature of the beast is they will be nicked young & will be off our radar. Although not as knowledgeable as you about the rules etc, I generally take an - it is what it is - view. Smaller clubs, lower down the pyramid will always lose players to other clubs - be they 9 year olds, 14 year olds or 25 year olds.

 

[Silent Blade]

Silent Blade Thanks for that. Naturally, I'd be very interested to hear the name of any Player X, who was nicked from our Academy, and went on to play Premier League or Champions League. But, I suppose the nature of the beast is they will be nicked young & will be off our radar. Although not as knowledgeable as you about the rules etc, I generally take an - it is what it is - view. Smaller clubs, lower down the pyramid will always lose players to other clubs - be they 9 year olds, 14 year olds or 25 year olds.

I dont know the name of the player X but the ex-Academy coach told me that this player X isnt the only one.

EPPP explained

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elite_Player_Performance_Plan