A Sign of The Times

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LouTheBlade

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Being a Blade is sometimes fantastic and quite often torturous but after seeing confirmation of our latest signing this morning it has really hit home where we are as a club at the moment. A few members of this forum have recently called for a bit of realism amongst supporters, not least myself at times. One would hope that seeing United re-sign a player from times gone by (at the age of 32) will highlight to people around the club that we are no longer able to compete for the sort of players we were signing a couple of years ago. We’re not in that market anymore, get over it..........

Of course everyone is entitled to their own opinions and expectations, that goes without saying. But why so much uproar that we have signed Simon Walton and Rob Kozluk? Why is this so much of a surprise? Admittedly these aren’t the marquee signings that we have grown accustomed to over the last few years but that was during a period of progression (for the most part) when the club was flourishing. Harder times have now hit and we have to make do. I want United to do well as much as anyone – I’m sure I even think about them in my sleep, but I also have to temper my ambition with the realistic view that these players are our level now and we have to get the best out of what we can recruit.

The signing of Leon Britton (probably our most celebrated capture so far) got the imagination going a little but that was a case of right player at the right time. United did well to get him, but there is no guarantee he will be a star man for us. Just in the same way that there is no guarantee that any other player won’t be up to the mark. We have to give all players the benefit of the doubt until they have been given their chance. Regardless of that, the point is that supporters should face up to the fact that we don’t have the finances to build an imposing Championship side (on paper) any more. Those days are gone and we are back to doing what we used to do – building a side of journey men and misfits in the hope that a winning formula will click. It has happened many times before and who is to say it won’t again.

What surprises me the most is that certain members of this forum will post repetitive jibes at the club as if they are entitled to have huge expectations! It’s as if United have been affluent big spenders all their history and are littered with success! Since when have we ever not had to settle for second best?! Even during the early to mid 70’s when we had probably the best team in our history, things went pear shaped after a few years! We’re traditionally a second tier side that occasionally flirts with the top flight. That’s all we ever were and that’s all we ever will be. So why the huge expectation and the balking at a bizarre/uninspiring signing???? Are we not used to this by now?

The Blades have gone backwards as a club in the last 2 years there is no doubt about that. I wouldn’t let anyone from the club hierarchy fool me into thinking otherwise. They can use spin and talk up the commercial side of things all they want but I know they’re disappointed with the way things are and how we have got here. Once again we had our chance to push on and we blew it, just as we and many other clubs like us always do. However, what’s gone is gone and we have to try to look forward whether the transfer dealings are good, bad or indifferent. The same goes for the coaching staff because at the end of the day until they are removed the opinions of supporters are irrelevant. There were plenty of people against KB last season but the directors chose to completely ignore it and get on with things, so it is quite apparent that fan pressure no longer has the impact it did under the Robson fiasco.

The key is not to have massive expectations and have a little patience, which I even find difficult myself at times, such is my typical supporter mentality of wanting success overnight. Although it irks me to read posts constantly slagging the club off and taking a dim view, I do understand where those feelings come from and deep down I probably agree with some of the opinions. But what does it achieve other than making you feel worse and in some cases, making yourself look a complete muppet. Football swings around and momentum will shift over the course of a few years. We had our little flurry (as short as it always is) and now other team are having theirs. Our time of promise will come again but I guarantee it will either be short lived or will flatter to deceive for no more than four or five years. That’s United and that’s the way we do it so next time it happens just enjoy it while it’s there. The glass is neither half empty nor half full – it is what it is.

Just remember as well..........if all else fails, you can still laugh at Wednesday!

:thumbup:
 

If you could set that to the tune of Sign o' the Times by Prince youd have a new Kop anthem.
 
We’re traditionally a second tier side that occasionally flirts with the top flight. That’s all we ever were

Not true.

and that’s all we ever will be.

We should just pack up now, I suppose.
 
We should just pack up now, I suppose.

Who said that? The point I'm making is that we are what we are. Everyone has their level, though supporters dont like to face the truth in many cases.

Success for us is getting promoted. That's where it ends because short of some sort of minor miracle, that is our everest!
 
I think the biggest problem is we have these autopsy's before the body is dead. We have no idea what shape the squad will be in come the Cardiff game which is surely the time to judge.

Yes I'm aware Blackwell said he wanted the squad settled before the Malta trip but contracts/players arrangements haven't gone to plan.

Personally my expectations are down on what they were when we signed Britton, but there a fair few weeks for business left.
 
Success for us is getting promoted. That's where it ends because short of some sort of minor miracle, that is our everest!

The presence of the likes of Bolton, Wolves and Birmingham in the PL would tend to disprove this theory.

United could do what Fulham or Bolton have done for the last decade or so. The infrastructure is there. The support is there. The main things that have hindered progress from the summer of 2006 are (at times) deeply unambitious tactics and an absolutely terrible record when making major decisions.
 
I think the biggest problem is we have these autopsy's before the body is dead. We have no idea what shape the squad will be in come the Cardiff game which is surely the time to judge.

Yes I'm aware Blackwell said he wanted the squad settled before the Malta trip but contracts/players arrangements haven't gone to plan.

Personally my expectations are down on what they were when we signed Britton, but there a fair few weeks for business left.

Bob.....ever the voice of reason. That's pretty much where I'm at currently in terms of my feelings towards things. I'm a little concerned but not throwing the towel in.

The fact that we need another 4 or 5 players to have a minimum sized squad concerns me far more than the signing of Kozluk! I'm just glad we've signed someone because our preparations cant be helped by only having half our signings donee going to Malta!

As you said though, there is still time. I just hope they start acting quickly because it will be August before we know it!
 
The presence of the likes of Bolton, Wolves and Birmingham in the PL would tend to disprove this theory.

United could do what Fulham or Bolton have done for the last decade or so. The infrastructure is there. The support is there. The main things that have hindered progress from the summer of 2006 are (at times) deeply unambitious tactics and an absolutely terrible record when making major decisions.

Why does it disprove the theory? I'm not attacking your view but I would like to hear why that disproves anything. All of the clubs you have mentioned there will likely be relegated again at some point in the next 5 to 10 years maximum. The history of English football proves that unless you are traditionally a top 6 side in the PL you will tumble back down at some point and probably inside a decade.

The ones that succeed for a slightly longer period are clubs like Bolton and Blackburn who live off the PL income and are lucky at the right times. But their time will come again as well and they will go back to where they came from. Just on the topic of those clubs - Wolves and Birmingham are yo-yo sides so are they anything to measure it by?! Bolton maybe but I dont see your point with the other two.

Despite the talk of our infrastructure, where did that get us when we went up???? Again we bottled it (oh sorry no we were cheated yes I forgot that). United have had two spells of more than a year in the top flight in the last 40 years. Is that the record of a club we should expect big things from? My theory of traditionally being a second tier side and having the ultimate aim of promotion and nothing more, stands to reason based on our record since the War.
 
Saw Roy Keane on SSN yesterday and he suggested there wasn't much money about and so little movement in the market.

I think there's hope that players will adjust their demands before the end of the window if they see their options dwindling. Certainly hope so.
 
Saw Roy Keane on SSN yesterday and he suggested there wasn't much money about and so little movement in the market.

I think there's hope that players will adjust their demands before the end of the window if they see their options dwindling. Certainly hope so.

This is a fair point, apart from the usual stories of teams like Forest bidding millions for player A B and C I've not seen to many big deals in the championship.
The only teams that will have money will be those with parachute money to spare and QPR. Thanks to Pompy and Hull's overspending there isn't too many of them about.
I was disappointed we never went in for Surman but left wing is hardly our biggest area for concern so I understand it.

Our defence is a priority for me, so the proof will be in the pudding on that front. I'm pretty certain that Nos is nailed on but that doesn't cut it for me.
Bartley would make me happy although I still think we need a right back. I don't have a problem with Taylor although again I think a left back will be coming in.
 
This is a fair point, apart from the usual stories of teams like Forest bidding millions for player A B and C I've not seen to many big deals in the championship.

I don't think there will be any big deals in the championship. The players that have signed for clubs e.g. Ertl for us have realised the days of milk and honey are over and are taking significant wage cuts and this will remain the case for the foreseeable future. When the penny finally drops there will be a pool of unsigned players who will be desperate for a club. Camara (or his agent) wanted bucket loads last year and when they didn't get realised reduced wages were better than none at all.
 
What i can't understand is how we can not afford to build a good team without spending a fortune. We averaged a gate of 25k last season the 3rd best in the league. So why aren't we making a nice profit each year?? Our wage bill must now be tiny compared to other clubs McCabe said last season it was one of the highest still but this was due to loan players. We should be spending what we have on good decent players not crap full backs who have already had a stint at the club and were crap then. Its also about time some academy players came through i thought lawton looked ok last season and what about Kyle bartley surely he must cost peanuts to bring in on loan for season as Arsenal will pay most of his wage which will be small because of his age. Leon Britton is a good signing but then am scratching my head as to naming another. oh sorry steve simonsen.

6 signings so far

Boggy (brought in due to his nationality)
Walton (squad filler at best)
Kozluk (waste of a wage)
Ertl (squad filler)
Simmo and britton (good signings)

Before we play Cardiff i would like to see

Nosworthy (think he could be added experience we need sounds like we can't afford him)
Bartley (i think he would come of age but its all gone quiet now)
New LB ( won't happen he will stick with taylor)
New RB ( also won't happen has brought in kozzy)

mid-table at best with the current squad but wouldn't take much to improve on that. The team with an average gate of 25k should be aiming higher.
 
Bob.....ever the voice of reason. That's pretty much where I'm at currently in terms of my feelings towards things. I'm a little concerned but not throwing the towel in.

The fact that we need another 4 or 5 players to have a minimum sized squad concerns me far more than the signing of Kozluk! I'm just glad we've signed someone because our preparations cant be helped by only having half our signings donee going to Malta!

As you said though, there is still time. I just hope they start acting quickly because it will be August before we know it!

I should've read this thread before putting my own thread up on similar lines

http://www.s24su.com/showthread.php?19435-The-return-of-the-Blackwell-beating-stick!&p=260023#post260023
 

David,

You are making a lot of assumptions. For example that 25,000 crowds bring in lots of money comparatively.

Our ticket prices were low, certainly our Season Ticket prices comparatively across the league. We had a wage bill last season of £14 odd million fair higher than 90% of the other sides and we are trying to reduce this. £14 Million was more than we could cover ourselves from our gate receipts.

We grumbling at squad filliers because they are all we have got, apart from Britton and Simmo. I'm sure the first teamers will arrive but at the moment it feels like we are putting the icing on before we've baked the cake.
 
David,

You are making a lot of assumptions. For example that 25,000 crowds bring in lots of money comparatively.

Our ticket prices were low, certainly our Season Ticket prices comparatively across the league. We had a wage bill last season of £14 odd million fair higher than 90% of the other sides and we are trying to reduce this. £14 Million was more than we could cover ourselves from our gate receipts.

We grumbling at squad filliers because they are all we have got, apart from Britton and Simmo. I'm sure the first teamers will arrive but at the moment it feels like we are putting the icing on before we've baked the cake.

Football?! Not Profitable?! What?!
 
What i can't understand is how we can not afford to build a good team without spending a fortune. We averaged a gate of 25k last season the 3rd best in the league. So why aren't we making a nice profit each year?? Our wage bill must now be tiny compared to other clubs McCabe said last season it was one of the highest still but this was due to loan players. We should be spending what we have on good decent players not crap full backs who have already had a stint at the club and were crap then. Its also about time some academy players came through i thought lawton looked ok last season and what about Kyle bartley surely he must cost peanuts to bring in on loan for season as Arsenal will pay most of his wage which will be small because of his age. Leon Britton is a good signing but then am scratching my head as to naming another. oh sorry steve simonsen.

6 signings so far

Boggy (brought in due to his nationality)
Walton (squad filler at best)
Kozluk (waste of a wage)
Ertl (squad filler)
Simmo and britton (good signings)

Before we play Cardiff i would like to see

Nosworthy (think he could be added experience we need sounds like we can't afford him)
Bartley (i think he would come of age but its all gone quiet now)
New LB ( won't happen he will stick with taylor)
New RB ( also won't happen has brought in kozzy)

mid-table at best with the current squad but wouldn't take much to improve on that. The team with an average gate of 25k should be aiming higher.


I would add another gk to that list.

Two have left, one has come in.

Anyone seeing Aksolu at Mansfield last Saturday, will be a little concerned regards the cover we now have for Simmo.
 
A team with our support & facilities should do much better. We are perennial underachievers, I think that is the point that Len tries to make, and there is no argument at all for me on that one after almost 40 years of watching them.

In my view, we haven't had a decent manager since the early part of Kendall's reign, and that has been the biggest problem of all.
 
Our Finances

You give the clue in the figures 25k average attendance, average season ticket price, say £400 brings in £10million. Add on telly cash, take off cost of running a stadium, you will be hard pushed to get to £14 million for wages. Then take off a couple of thousand season tickets this time around - that's half a mil. gone - enough to pay Danny Webber's wages (at Portsmouth ). In other words every 2k season tickets sold pays a wage for a Danny Webber standard player - 16 000 seasons would get us eight like that.

They are not easy books to balance.

Wobbly
 
A team with our support & facilities should do much better. We are perennial underachievers, I think that is the point that Len tries to make, and there is no argument at all for me on that one after almost 40 years of watching them.

In my view, we haven't had a decent manager since the early part of Kendall's reign, and that has been the biggest problem of all.

in regards to the manager,what do you mean?the standard of football,or the level of success?
 
Best thread in ages - thanks Lou!

Your point on realism is IMO the key issue right now. Others have shown that in post war years our average position is 4th in the second teir - therefore to expect PL football is a total nonsense. To hope for it is why we're all Blades - but to "expect" it is ridiculous, based what we have been as a club for decades and the increasing financial gap between the PL and everyone else. (To argue that we're the same as Blackburn and Bolton is mistaken given the financial clout those clubs have through their lengthy stay in the PL)

I've posted before (a while back) that unreasonable expectations place us in the same "catagory" as Clubs we tend to ridicule. Forest, Leeds, Wednesday - all clubs who think they are bigger than they are - and think they have a God-given right to success and life in the limelight. We're fast becoming the same!

The result of this may be decisive this season. I would forecast that our fans won't give new players chance to prove themselves - and will be on KB's back before the first half at Bramall Lane has ended. Anything short of top 6 at Xmas (2 below our historical average) will see "fan power" get him fired and then what happens? From that point on the precedent has been set and managers are held to ransom by the fans ("Well we pay our money don't we?") - and continuing unsustainable expectations will create instability in the club's management leading to ever more years of failing to reach promotion.

And we have to accept that forums are (at the monent) fostering the kind of negative view of the club that confuses hopes with expectations and in so doing will IMO lead to instability and stagnation. I have a number of mates who don't read any forums - and feel far more positive about the Blades in general and also about KB. We are talking ourselves into a hole here my friends!

I just wish fans would realise that in the real world, there's next to nothing we can do to change the club - short of putting our money where our mouth is and buying shares. The only alternative view is the Robson Scenario - but I feel another "fan power" demonstration would be counter-productive to the club, and probably unjustified as the current scenario is far more complex (due to finances etc) than in Robson's case. We don't know enough of the detail to take such a strong approach.

For the record I would hope for promotion - expect 4th to 8th - be disappointed with less - and fire KB with a bottom third finish.
 
One season in the top flight in 17 years, five in the last 35 years, one cup final in 75 years.
And we have 'unreasonable' expectations of something better?
 
I've posted before (a while back) that unreasonable expectations place us in the same "catagory" as Clubs we tend to ridicule. Forest, Leeds, Wednesday - all clubs who think they are bigger than they are - and think they have a God-given right to success and life in the limelight. We're fast becoming the same!

I know seven people who haven't renewed and none of them, apart from me, frequent forums and none of them have stopped because we didn't get promoted. They have all junked because of the dire style (as loose a usage of the term you'll ever find) that we have adopted under Hoofy.
I don't know anyone who expects us to get promoted simply by being "who we are", but I know plenty who think paying good money for tedium is beyond the pale.

I think expectation on the results side IS as low as I can remember.
 
One season in the top flight in 17 years, five in the last 35 years, one cup final in 75 years.
And we have 'unreasonable' expectations of something better?

Going on the stats you've supplied Len it would actually give evidence that maybe we are punching above our weight battling it out for playoff places for the last few seasons.

I don't necessarily agree with it but that is what your stats suggest.
 
Sheep - if you think we're gonna finish in top 8 with this pathetic plank of a manager in charge then the only one with unrealistic expectations is you.

The club can be changed very simply by hiring a better manager. It is very, very straightforward Mr Sheep. Good post though.

Blackwell Out.
 
Sheep - if you think we're gonna finish in top 8 with this pathetic plank of a manager in charge then the only one with unrealistic expectations is you.

The club can be changed very simply by hiring a better manager. It is very, very straightforward Mr Sheep. Good post though.

Blackwell Out.

If this was a betting exchange I'd be taking you on. 8th is quite possible, albeit at the upper end of my range.

And you really don't need to post your opinion of Blackwell. Do you think people aren't aware of it by now?
 
Going on the stats you've supplied Len it would actually give evidence that maybe we are punching above our weight battling it out for playoff places for the last few seasons.

I don't necessarily agree with it but that is what your stats suggest.

I'm not going over it again but the success of football clubs is generally based roughly on their size.
Even statistically speaking, if your starting point was 1976 the following 35 years have been shockingly poor based on our previous history.
 

in regards to the manager,what do you mean?the standard of football,or the level of success?

Both really. Kendall & Spackman produced the only football worth watching since the 70s. And from Bassett onwards we have predominantly played a style which hasn't had much to do with my idea of football. I think a lot of fans accepted it because of the relative success that Bassett had, and continued to accept it when Warnock took us up for the one season.

Back in the day we always had a reputation for playing good football, and I was proud of that. But our reputation has been very different, quite deservedly, since the days of Bassett, and I find it embarrassing at times. It is also not a style that provides long lasting success, certainly in the modern game. People moan about the fact that smaller clubs such as Burnley, Blackpool & Hull get promoted whilst we once more rot in the CCC, but the first two certainly prove what can be done if you appoint a manager who is prepared to have a go at playing football.

Of course, those clubs don't carry anything like the weight of expectation that we have at BDTBL, which I think is a large part of the problem. As I have said on here before, if we appointed S O'D he would quickly get crucified because he wouldn't be allowed the time to properly grow & develop a different footballing ethos - which isn't something that can happen overnight. There is an argument that Kendall achieved it, but that was because he was allowed to make wholesale changes to the playing staff very quickly. Which cost an awful lot of money.
 

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