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Darren said:
4. Spackman also had loads of money (Deane, McGrath, Stuart, Saunders, Marcelo etc. When he walked out we were in the play off places and had never looked like getting automatic promotion
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I agree with most of what you say but under Spackman our record by the 4th Nov 1997 was P13 W8 D4 L1 Pts 28.
That's an average of 2.15 points a game which extrapolates to 99 points for the full season.
On that basis, how can you say his team "had never looked like getting automatic promotion"?
 



Ollessendro said:
Good point Raul. The one consitent factor in all of this (Robson, Blackwell, KB staying on, Speed and Adams) is McCabe's shocking judgement and terrible decisions. This should not be hidden. McCabe is the one who put the club where it is now and has to take overall resposibility.
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Kerpow. Thats where I'm at.
 
Fill it with real ale and bring it on down to Wycombe, Thatcham me owd spadge :D
 
Someone had to take up the mantle of the boards chief WUM after lenners got booted off. Well done Olle :D
 
Sothall_Blade said:
I agree with most of what you say but under Spackman our record by the 4th Nov 1997 was P13 W8 D4 L1 Pts 28.
That's an average of 2.15 points a game which extrapolates to 99 points for the full season.
On that basis, how can you say his team "had never looked like getting automatic promotion"?
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Ok, there was a brief period, after we won at Reading 1-0 on 4/11/97 when auto promotion looked on. However, between that game and Spackman going off our record was P20 W7 D9 L4 pts 30, giving an overall record of P33 W15 D13 L5 pts 58, which extrapolated over a season would have given us 81 points and a play off place. Basically we drew too many under Spackman and couldn't win away after that win at Reading.
 
Darren said:
Ok, there was a brief period, after we won at Reading 1-0 on 4/11/97 when auto promotion looked on. However, between that game and Spackman going off our record was P20 W7 D9 L4 pts 30, giving an overall record of P33 W15 D13 L5 pts 58, which extrapolated over a season would have given us 81 points and a play off place. Basically we drew too many under Spackman and couldn't win away after that win at Reading.
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What's the stats up until January 16th?
 
Darren said:
Ok, there was a brief period, after we won at Reading 1-0 on 4/11/97 when auto promotion looked on. However, between that game and Spackman going off our record was P20 W7 D9 L4 pts 30, giving an overall record of P33 W15 D13 L5 pts 58, which extrapolated over a season would have given us 81 points and a play off place. Basically we drew too many under Spackman and couldn't win away after that win at Reading.
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Spackman was wholly unsuited to management. He allowed himself to be dominated by Charles Green and then shamefully quit at a vital time for the club. Charles Green actually scouted and signed Vas Borbokis and Tri Dellas. Spackman had never seen or heard of either. After leaving the Lane he flopped elsewhere then sank without trace. Yet, from time to time, some numpty will advocate binging him back.
 
Darren said:
P26 W12 D10 L4 pts 46 - extrapolated over a season = 81 points - so exactly the same. We were heading for the play offs both pre and post Deane/Fjortoft.
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Aye, another myth that has been turned into "FACT" by time is that we were certs for promotion before their sale. We were on a relatively poor run, after a great start, when the sales ocurred. That period reminds me of recent times. Everyone focuses on the sales as the root cause of the problem, when in reality it was the squandering of money beforehand making the sales inevitble that was the root cause.

UTB
 
When did Whitehouse get injured? That was a key turning point in that season for me. In my mind we were on for automatic promotion until Ainsworth crocked Whitehouse and that was the first hammer blow of the season. Possibly the second, if you count McGraph packing in when he did. He was phenomenal, but as he played so few games then I am not sure we can count it. Losing at key player like Whitehouse was a massive factor in us not getting automatic that year and were were already on the decline when the Deane/Fjortoft sale happened.
 
Ollessendro said:
When did Whitehouse get injured? That was a key turning point in that season for me. In my mind we were on for automatic promotion until Ainsworth crocked Whitehouse and that was the first hammer blow of the season. Possibly the second, if you count McGraph packing in when he did. He was phenomenal, but as he played so few games then I am not sure we can count it. Losing at key player like Whitehouse was a massive factor in us not getting automatic that year and were were already on the decline when the Deane/Fjortoft sale happened.
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November 1997.

I wouldn't say we'd have got promoted automatically with Deane and Jan Age in the squad.... But we all knew we wouldn't once they'd gone.
 
Aye, another myth that has been turned into "FACT" by time is that we were certs for promotion before their sale. We were on a relatively poor run, after a great start, when the sales ocurred.

We were, but you also have to remember that before Black Thursday we had already sold Ward, Tiler and Patterson, bringing in Saunders and Stuart (neither of whom were playing well at that point) and had lost Whitehouse and McGrath permanently. United only lost one game before December, I think.

It was death by a thousand cuts, with the biggest being Deane and Fjortoft's sale.
 



Revolution said:
Aye, another myth that has been turned into "FACT" by time is that we were certs for promotion before their sale. We were on a relatively poor run, after a great start, when the sales ocurred.

We were, but you also have to remember that before Black Thursday we had already sold Ward, Tiler and Patterson, bringing in Saunders and Stuart (neither of whom were playing well at that point) and had lost Whitehouse and McGrath permanently. United only lost one game before December, I think.

It was death by a thousand cuts, with the biggest being Deane and Fjortoft's sale.
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But we were already stuttering and drawing too many games even before we swapped Ward and Tiler for Stuart in late Nov 97. In our seven games before that we had won two drawn four and lost one - a haul of ten points, hardly play off form, never mind automatic proomotion.
 
As I said, Darren, we were on a poor run.

It is also true that we saw a full strength United side play Sunderland and Middlsebrough off the pitch, hammer Charlton and beat forest: that's the top 3 and the team who won the playoffs. We may not have gone up automatically but we might well have made a better fist of the playoffs with a few more of the sold players retained.
 
Revolution said:
As I said, Darren, we were on a poor run.

It is also true that we saw a full strength United side play Sunderland and Middlsebrough off the pitch, hammer Charlton and beat forest: that's the top 3 and the team who won the playoffs. We may not have gone up automatically but we might well have made a better fist of the playoffs with a few more of the sold players retained.
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Don't disagree with any of that, just trying to nail the myth that we were on for automatic promotion for any length of time in 97-98.
 
Darren said:
Don't disagree with any of that, just trying to nail the myth that we were on for automatic promotion for any length of time in 97-98.
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We were never nailed on. I agree with that. However we were in with a very good shout. (as outlined in my earlier post #133) My opinion is that 3 events lead to us not being involved in the hunt for automatic promotion: losing McGraph, losing Whitehouse and then selling some of our best players (particularly Deane and Fjortoft, but also Ward, Tiler and Patterson).

JohnDenver said:
November 1997.

I wouldn't say we'd have got promoted automatically with Deane and Jan Age in the squad.... But we all knew we wouldn't once they'd gone.
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With McGraph, Whitehouse AND Deane and Fjortoft in the squad I think we would have got automatic promotion. Just my opinion of course but the 'FACTS' back me up ;) (Darren - stats up until firstly McGraph and then Whitehouse injuries suggest we would have gone on to win the league?)

I think Charles Green/McDonald probably suspected we were not going up and hence cashed in on two of our best players (almost certainly taking a few backhanders).
 
Ollessendro said:
We were never nailed on. I agree with that. However we were in with a very good shout. (as outlined in my earlier post #133)

With McGraph, Whitehouse AND Deane and Fjortoft in the squad I think we would have got automatic promotion. Just my opinion of course but the 'FACTS' back me up ;) (Darren - stats up until firstly McGraph and then Whitehouse injuries suggest we would have gone on to win the league?)

I think Charles Green/McDonald probably suspected we were not going up and hence cashed in on two of our best players (almost certainly taking a few backhanders).
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Whitehouse was injured in the game before we sold Ward and Tiler and McGrath played his last game shortly before that. At that point our record was P17 W8 D8 L1 pts 32 - extrapolated over a season = 87 points. That season, that would have given us 5th place as opposed to the 6th we got, so no, we were not on to win the league.

Whats your evidence for the backhander comment?
 
Darren said:
Whitehouse was injured in the game before we sold Ward and Tiler and McGrath played his last game shortly before that. At that point our record was P17 W8 D8 L1 pts 32 - extrapolated over a season = 87 points. That season, that would have given us 5th place as opposed to the 6th we got, so no, we were not on to win the league.

Whats your evidence for the backhander comment?
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ok thanks Darren. Just shows how the mid can distort things. I was living in South Yorks and had a season ticket back then and remember parts of that season vividly. Guess over time I have convinced myself of things that might not have been on the cards. I remember the division being pretty good that year though and the 4 teams in the play offs (never mind the top 2) being very strong.

It is a flaming accusations backed up by little evidence. (I might be getting confused with the Saunders transfer later) but didn't United never get any money from Benfica for Deane? I know someone quite close to Charles Green and he was as bent as a nine bomb note. I know he made a lot of money out of United and that not all of it was legitimate.
 
Darren said:
Don't disagree with any of that, just trying to nail the myth that we were on for automatic promotion for any length of time in 97-98.
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But it's not a myth! We were in strong contention for automatic promotion from the first brilliant performance against Sunderland in August until early December.
As this league table from the 2nd December clearly shows:- http://www.statto.com/football/stats/england/division-one/1997-1998/table/1997-12-02

As others have said, the key month was November 1997 when we lost Mcgrath, Tiler, Ward, Patterson and Whitehouse.
At the start of the month, we were in a very commanding postition in the top two with games in hand on most of our rivals.
This was the league table:- http://www.statto.com/football/stats/england/division-one/1997-1998/table/1997-11-04

It's also worth noting that there were some very high-achieving teams in our league that season.
The top four teams all finished with over 88 points that season which was enough for QPR to win the league with last season.
Most years 81 points is enough for automatic promotion, so in a normal year Spackman's results would have been seen in an even better light.

The bottom line is that the excellent start to the season wasn't matched by an increase in attendances and revenue.
Spackman didn't help by signing players he didn't really need (e.g. Saunders) and the board allowed him to do so.
MacDonald panicked early, started to sell players who we did need against the manager's wishes and the rest is history.
If we'd only lost McGrath and Whitehouse and kept the rest, I feel we would have at least challenged for automatic promotion until the end.
 
Sothall_Blade said:
But it's not a myth! We were in strong contention for automatic promotion from the first brilliant performance against Sunderland in August until early December.
As this league table from the 2nd December clearly shows:- http://www.statto.com/football/stats/england/division-one/1997-1998/table/1997-12-02

As others have said, the key month was November 1997 when we lost Mcgrath, Tiler, Ward, Patterson and Whitehouse.
At the start of the month, we were in a very commanding postition in the top two with games in hand on most of our rivals.
This was the league table:- http://www.statto.com/football/stats/england/division-one/1997-1998/table/1997-11-04

It's also worth noting that there were some very high-achieving teams in our league that season.
The top four teams all finished with over 88 points that season which was enough for QPR to win the league with last season.
Most years 81 points is enough for automatic promotion, so in a normal year Spackman's results would have been seen in an even better light.

The bottom line is that the excellent start to the season wasn't matched by an increase in attendances and revenue.
Spackman didn't help by signing players he didn't really need (e.g. Saunders) and the board allowed him to do so.
MacDonald panicked early, started to sell players who we did need against the manager's wishes and the rest is history.
If we'd only lost McGrath and Whitehouse and kept the rest, I feel we would have at least challenged for automatic promotion until the end.
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Fair enough, but the stuttering actually started after that win at Reading on 4th November and our form was pretty consistent between then and Spackman's departure (to that extent the departure of Deane and Fjortoft made no difference) and saw us drifting from challenging for auto promotion to play off contenders. After Spackman left the form got worse and we only just made the play offs.
 
Darren said:
Fair enough, but the stuttering actually started after that win at Reading on 4th November and our form was pretty consistent between then and Spackman's departure (to that extent the departure of Deane and Fjortoft made no difference) and saw us drifting from challenging for auto promotion to play off contenders. After Spackman left the form got worse and we only just made the play offs.
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After Reading our next 6 league results were 3 away draws, 1 home draw, 2 home wins. We'd all accept "stuttering form" like that in most seasons.
Still we've come a long way since you originally said "Spackman had never looked like getting automatic promotion" ;)
 
Sothall_Blade said:
After Reading our next 6 league results were 3 away draws, 1 home draw, 2 home wins. We'd all accept "stuttering form" like that in most seasons.
Still we've come a long way since you originally said "Spackman had never looked like getting automatic promotion" ;)
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= 10 points from 6 games = 77 points over the season. As I said enough for the play offs but not enough for automatic.
 
Darren said:
= 10 points from 6 games = 77 points over the season. As I said enough for the play offs but not enough for automatic.
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And as I said, good enough to still keep us in contention for automatic promotion until early December.
 
Sothall_Blade said:
And as I said, good enough to still keep us in contention for automatic promotion until early December.
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Yep, but only because of our pre-November form. The same form carried on and saw us fall out of contention before Spackman left.
 
Yep, but only because of our pre-November form

Before we started asset stripping.
 



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