First Post -- A look at Adkins

[1danewhitehouse]

You come into the club analysis what you have got and ship the fuckers out pdq. Charlton and Bristol City comes to mind without really thinking about it . They both spent a boat load of money rebuilding .

Problem we had / have is players in a comfort zone , only way for them is down not up , good salaries , nice club , nice training facilities . Loads of hot water . Long contracts , part of the furniture . Happy to see there contracts out , know that they would be on there way at the end of this season , therefore not fully committed to the cause .

Ok you could say , why didn't he do a Warnock like at Rotherham . Well Warnock is short term and what he is doing is not sustainable . Warnock manager next season with the same squad , Rotherham will get relegated.

Adkins has made mistakes , but let's forget this shit transition season , and hope he gets the financial backing to build a quality successful team.

We all thought we would get promotion this year as we all bought in to Adkins CV and past success .

Are we Reading in disguise or is that another excuse .

UTB

Another thing Charlton and Bristol had was a manager in place for the 2nd half of the previous season who could assess what he had and release some at the end of the previous season whilst agreeing pre-contract agreements for new signings in the summer. Let’s hope Adkins has been doing that this spring and that we see the fruits of it with some decent free transfer arrivals.

 

[1danewhitehouse]

I really don't think we'll be another Reading unless the board screw us up (always a possibility though). It seems like he was sold false promises at Reading and as a result he didn't succeed. Despite the way it ended at Southampton (chairman having it in for him), with everyone pulling together in the same direction they achieved an incredible amount in a very short period of time.
It's not just his CV for me. When you read about how much detail he goes into behind the scenes (fitness, scouting, tactics etc.) its evident in my mind that given the right tools he'll get the job done. There have been disappointments and mistakes made this year but I think they are largely down to what he inherited. He's had the odd tactical balls up but he's only human, every manager makes errors from time to time. I'm just glad he's not stubborn like his predecessor and is always looking to change things for the best.

Also, like you say, with those teams money was spent to turn it around. It's near impossible to turn it around without any money when you're up against so much.

Very much agree about the detail etc. He has two relevant degrees and goes to great lengths to give the team every possible advantage (equipping players with information, monitoring their physical loading, providing the most positive platform he can, using players like Dean Hammond as an example to bring the best out in others etc.). Despite being given every advantage under Adkins, too many players have let him down this season. He’s said a lot about in a very non-confrontational way. The need for robust players who can play 40 games, the need for drive, grit and determination, the need for players who can take responsibility for themselves eating the right foods etc. By talking about what he needs, I think he’s letting on that he doesn’t currently have that. He has even acknowledged that Dean Hammond isn’t a particularly good footballer but talked about him being someone he would “want in the trenches with him”. Again, indicative that most of the bunch he inherited don’t fall within that bracket hence the need for a Dean Hammond despite his limitations. If he’s able to build a squad of people who are willing to pay for him, buy into his methods and give their all for the club, that might be enough if supplemented with the ability of people like Brayford, Sharp, Adams etc. (though I think we need a couple more with real pace and quality to give ourselves the best chance).

 

[1danewhitehouse]

Take everything else out of the equation, thd fact of the matter is that Adkins was given a fair wedge of money to spend on what he liked. Instead of signing good players, he signed bad ones. That is nobody else's fault other than Nigel Adkins'. So surprising to see so many supporters unable to grasp this very simple fact.

He actually signed players of a range of quality.


Sharp- Very good.


Baptiste- Good so far


Edgar- Decent but not great. Has looked better in the 352 with no Collins.


Hammond- Average footballer but brings some qualities we lack. Again, looks better in the 352 and we have a good win % playing that system with him in the team.


Woolford- Very Poor


Sammon- Started well but it’s since gone disastrously wrong.




Yes it was possible with 6 signings to make us a promotion team but how many managers have a hit with all of their first 6 signings? All managers have mixed results in the transfer market. Adkins has been fairly average in terms of his dealings. We shouldn’t sack somebody just because they didn’t do exceptionally well with their first 6 signings.

 

[1danewhitehouse]

1.5 million in total spent on the new signings this season if an ITK is to be believed. I think it's probably more than that and that figure wasn't even factoring in Sammon's wages, who is supposedly the clubs highest earner. Other than Wigan, tell me one other club in this division that has spent that sort of money this season.

That included wages (OK, not Sammon’s). We raised that with the sale of Murphy alone before you consider getting people like Higdon, Alcock etc., off the wage bill so he’s had a negative net spend.


Bradford, Barnsley. Peterborough, Millwall etc. have all brought in a lot more players than us this season so I wouldn’t be at all surprised if the cost (including wages) exceeded £1.5 million.

 

[1danewhitehouse]

Bottom line is there are no clubs in this league other than Wigan that have spent that sort of money on incoming players.

You have absolutely no idea if that’s true or not. I suspect it is not.

 

[BeatleBlade]

To be fair, we didn’t know the constraints he’d be under. Nor did we know whether the old players would respond to his approach. Given what he did at Southampton with players who seemed shit previously, we could be forgiven for thinking it might be do-able. But it hasn’t worked out this year. Doesn’t mean he’s a bad manager, just that he couldn’t turn it round in the first season in difficult circumstances as we hoped he might.

Yeah, my view last summer was that Clough had been holding the players back with his tactics and that Adkins with his great record (turning it around at Southampton like you said) would simply use his better management skills and fill in the gaps in our squad with a decent amount given to spend.
Turns out it wasn't the tactics but the players. Lost our best player and Adkins wasn't given much money to work with anyway. Other factors also have emerged throughout the season.

 

[BeatleBlade]

Very much agree about the detail etc. He has two relevant degrees and goes to great lengths to give the team every possible advantage (equipping players with information, monitoring their physical loading, providing the most positive platform he can, using players like Dean Hammond as an example to bring the best out in others etc.). Despite being given every advantage under Adkins, too many players have let him down this season. He’s said a lot about in a very non-confrontational way. The need for robust players who can play 40 games, the need for drive, grit and determination, the need for players who can take responsibility for themselves eating the right foods etc. By talking about what he needs, I think he’s letting on that he doesn’t currently have that. He has even acknowledged that Dean Hammond isn’t a particularly good footballer but talked about him being someone he would “want in the trenches with him”. Again, indicative that most of the bunch he inherited don’t fall within that bracket hence the need for a Dean Hammond despite his limitations. If he’s able to build a squad of people who are willing to pay for him, buy into his methods and give their all for the club, that might be enough if supplemented with the ability of people like Brayford, Sharp, Adams etc. (though I think we need a couple more with real pace and quality to give ourselves the best chance).

I didn't realise he had two degrees. He has one in physiotherapy doesn't he? What's the other one?

 

[1danewhitehouse]

I didn't realise he had two degrees. He has one in physiotherapy doesn't he? What's the other one?

Sports Science.

 

[BeatleBlade]

Sports Science.

Pretty impressive to have both.
Also, to addto my previous post. He's definitely not a bad manager, just can't work miracles which some people on this forum can't seem to understand.

 

[Barney]

Yes it was possible with 6 signings to make us a promotion team

Hallelujah. The penny has dropped.

 

[1danewhitehouse]

Hallelujah. The penny has dropped.

No, and I'm not sure it's about to any time soon.

 

[BushBlade]

Yeah, my view last summer was that Clough had been holding the players back with his tactics and that Adkins with his great record (turning it around at Southampton like you said) would simply use his better management skills and fill in the gaps in our squad with a decent amount given to spend.
Turns out it wasn't the tactics but the players. Lost our best player and Adkins wasn't given much money to work with anyway. Other factors also have emerged throughout the season.

I think most of us thought that, including the board. It now appears that Clough bought players specifically to play his defensive style of football. It's the type of football that is always likely to get you into the top six (given the money we could pay players, or if you're paying much less, keep you out of the relegation zone) but might not get you into the top two, when you've got more adventurous rivals.
He may well, given time, have succeeded in this approach but he's gone now and he won't be coming back. The madness was allowing him to spend so much on bringing in players that were his 'type', who'd played for him before and wanted to play for him again, then sacking him. We're not the only club to ever make this mistake but this season has been fairly inevitable and the consequences of not being able to put a plan together that can be seen through to its conclusion.

And when you look at some of the other clubs that have made the playoffs during our time in L1 and where they are now, maintaining a challenge every season is perhaps harder than it looks. Maybe the board have underestimated this league and, like we did when we got relegated to the championship, thought we just had to throw some money at it and everything would be fine, forgetting that some other clubs are also throwing money at it whilst others have been carefully building a side over two or three years to challenge, using every bit of good management and governance they can muster. We've been so arrogant that we've not even bothered with a proper scouting network until now.

 

[BeatleBlade]

Hallelujah. The penny has dropped.

That's not the point. If those 6 were top class players way out of our budget and FFP restrictions that I'm sure that would be possible.

 

[Barney]

That's not the point. If those 6 were top class players way out of our budget and FFP restrictions that I'm sure that would be possible.

You clearly don't understand the scouting at this level. It's not all about money and the fees you pay. Money doesn't equal ability in the real world. It isn't FIFA. It really isn't difficult to find young and upcoming players in the lower divisions good enough for a promotion pushing side. Done right, recruiting a different 6 players in the right mould would have certainly cost less, if not a lot less than we have spent on those 6 this season. Plenty of smaller clubs have done it and gone straight up.

 

[BeatleBlade]

You clearly don't understand the scouting at this level. It's not all about money and the fees you pay. Money doesn't equal ability in the real world. It isn't FIFA. It really isn't difficult to find young and upcoming players in the lower divisions good enough for a promotion pushing side. Done right, recruiting a different 6 players in the right mould would have certainly cost less, if not a lot less than we have spent on those 6 this season. Plenty of smaller clubs have done it and gone straight up.

Plenty of smaller clubs who have got themselves into that position have had long term plans in place which they have carried out. I don't know how you can expect NA to turn up (without a proper scouting system in place) and pick 6 players perfect for the squad in the off season when he can't see them play competitively. It just defies logic. You do need money to carry out getting good players though. The more money you have, the more options you available, the more competitive you are with other clubs.
I think it's you who doesn't understand because yesterday you were saying the bottom was that we had paid x amount of money and should get promoted and now you're saying that it doesn't matter so you've contradicted yourself.
I think you want a football manager to be some sort of miracle worker. These things take time and planning to get right. They also take money and a lot of other factors come in to play which you happily ignore because it doesn't suit your agenda.

 

[Barney]

Plenty of smaller clubs who have got themselves into that position have had long term plans in place which they have carried out. I don't know how you can expect NA to turn up (without a proper scouting system in place) and pick 6 players perfect for the squad in the off season when he can't see them play competitively. It just defies logic. You do need money to carry out getting good players though. The more money you have, the more options you available, the more competitive you are with other clubs.
I think it's you who doesn't understand because yesterday you were saying the bottom was that we had paid x amount of money and should get promoted and now you're saying that it doesn't matter so you've contradicted yourself.
I think you want a football manager to be some sort of miracle worker. These things take time and planning to get right. They also take money and a lot of other factors come in to play which you happily ignore because it doesn't suit your agenda.

What I said yesterday was that what we have spent should have been enough for promotion. The point here is that if done right, it could have so easily cost a lot less as well as actually helping the club achieve promotion in the process. You're taking a typical money = ability view and that is just not how it works in football. Adkins had a nigh on full pre season to put in place and work on an effective scouting and recruitment system. Not having one in place is no excuse whatsoever. He is paid an absolute fortune to manage the club, things like scouting and recruitment are integral parts of that management.

 

[BeatleBlade]

What I said yesterday was that what we have spent should have been enough for promotion. The point here is that if done right, it could have so easily cost a lot less as well as actually helping the club achieve promotion in the process. You're taking a typical money = ability view and that is just not how it works in football. Adkins had a nigh on full pre season to put in place and work on an effective scouting and recruitment system. Not having one in place is no excuse whatsoever. He is paid an absolute fortune to manage the club, things like scouting and recruitment are integral parts of that management.

Nonsense, if you look at the way league tables pan out, there is a correlation between money spent on playing staff and the league table. Nigel Adkins has spent a negative out of money because he's had to cut the playing budget for a team that was already not good enough. He may have spent £1.5 million but he's had to fill in gaps in several positions. It's very difficult to bring in quality players in several positions with so little money especially given that we didn't even have a proper scouting network in place at the time!
It is a valid reason as to why we haven't done well, he's putting a scouting network in place now anyway. Without one he's effectively working blind in the summer because of no scouts advising him and no games on either. I'm not saying that scouting and recruitment aren't a part of management either, but how can it expected when he's gotten the job in the summer and has no scouts. It's absurd.

 

[Barney]

Nonsense, if you look at the way league tables pan out, there is a correlation between money spent on playing staff and the league table. Nigel Adkins has spent a negative out of money because he's had to cut the playing budget for a team that was already not good enough. He may have spent £1.5 million but he's had to fill in gaps in several positions. It's very difficult to bring in quality players in several positions with so little money especially given that we didn't even have a proper scouting network in place at the time!
It is a valid reason as to why we haven't done well, he's putting a scouting network in place now anyway. Without one he's effectively working blind in the summer because of no scouts advising him and no games on either. I'm not saying that scouting and recruitment aren't a part of management either, but how can it expected when he's gotten the job in the summer and has no scouts. It's absurd.

He had all pre season to put a system in place. Managers don't just do nothing you know, that is exactly the type of thing they fill their time with. For you to suggest he just didn't bother and blamed the fact that he didn't have a scouting system in place for poor signings is the very definition of absurd.

 

[BeatleBlade]

He had all pre season to put a system in place. Managers don't just do nothing you know, that is exactly the type of thing they fill their time with. For you to suggest he just didn't bother and blamed the fact that he didn't have a scouting system in place for poor signings is the very definition of absurd.

During pre season that was being put in place, signing of Turnbull etc. These things take time, something which you have no concept of at all.
What I'm saying is that he didn't have the money or scouting system in place early on meaning he had to mostly sign players he'd worked with beforehand due to no scouting system. That's what you don't get.
I'm not saying he didn't bother, I'm saying everything can't be done by one man alone. It takes time to turn around a club in the dark ages.

 

[Barney]

During pre season that was being put in place, signing of Turnbull etc. These things take time, something which you have no concept of at all.
What I'm saying is that he didn't have the money or scouting system in place early on meaning he had to mostly sign players he'd worked with beforehand due to no scouting system. That's what you don't get.
I'm not saying he didn't bother, I'm saying everything can't be done by one man alone. It takes time to turn around a club in the dark ages.

Sammon, Edgar, Woolford, Baptiste all hadn't played under Adkins previous to them signing. I don't think that's "mostly signing players he'd worked with". Do you think that the moment Adkins was appointed, we had absolutely no scouts at all? You seem to be suggesting that he had to rebuild an entire scouting network, which is categorically not true. It is not how football clubs operate. When a manager is sacked they don't sack every single scout too. He had all pre season to tweak it and put in place his own system and style. If he has done that is both your guess and mine, but what is for sure is that poor signings cannot be blamed on not having any system in place (not true), or not having a system to his liking (opportunity was there to put this in place).

 

[HillmortonBlade]

Sammon, Edgar, Woolford, Baptiste all hadn't played under Adkins previous to them signing.

Apart from Woolford, ironically enough, given the form since.