Time to embrace 3-5-2

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Champagneblade

Stop moaning and get on with it
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I do hope that Adkins will perseveres with 3-5-2 as a formation.

From my reckoning, we are averaging 1.44 points per game in the league overall. Under 3-5-2, it has been 1.64 points per game, which would see us reach between 75-76 points.

If Adkins confirms his plan to stick with this, then he strengthens the thoughts around his own planning. The players also seem to like this, and I would argue less recruitment is required and as such greater continuity can be fostered.

Conversely, if Adkins is going back to 4-4-2, his original preferred formula, then given this failed, more recruitment, which wasn’t Adkins’ strong point this season, must raise further the question as to whether the starting from scratch type operation could be just as well executed with a new manager as well!

As well as building on momentum, I do feel the cost of recruitment and number of changes is a key factor. Some players will be retained and I think we have to be realistic. We aren’t going to bring in front line names and have them as squad players. Also, if we need to recruit on masse, then the time taken over each deal will be diluted.

Of 43 players remaining on the books, I believe as many as 20 are out of contract. I’d be inclined to release 17 of them. This would leave McEveley, McGahey (sorry Deadbat) and possibly Willis depending on feedback from Matlock.

Keeper – Unless a senior, been there, done that, keeper comes available and affordable, Long can develop. Robinson would be a choice for me, not Kenny. You then have a healthy batch of home grown keepers in Willis, Ramsdale and Eastwood.

Back 5 – McEveley has done enough for me to retain a spot. Few players around who have the knowhow of going forward from fullback and the height of a center half to play the LCB role of three so effectively. Get two top drawer center back signings there as your first recruits; as good as Baptiste, more dominating than Edgar. Basham is doing well at right wing back and can offer another center back option. If you keep Brayford and Freeman, both more suited to wingback, you’re collectively covered on the right. On the left, both Wallace and Kelly can be cover for LWB and LCB and McGahey can complete the set of those young enough to accept the role of understudy. If he worked on it in the summer, Done can make the LWB role his own. His energy and enthusiasm is a must and he is a threat, but he isn’t going to displace Sharp. So, 10 defenders - 2 new center backs.

Midfield 3 – I would say we need 2, possibly three players here. We need someone to play the role Hammond plays as destroyer, so that would be one signing. We then need attacking intent and a record for goals, one, possibly two from say Roofe, McGeehan and Moncur would be ideal. I think then we can get away with Reed and Whiteman providing competition plus young Brooks will hopefully also emerge and you still have Basham's versatility. I’d be making efforts to offload Woolford, Coutts and Scougall, but appreciate the odd one may remain and who knows, one might re-emerge. You are talking therefore about six or seven here including possibly three new signings.

Front two – Sharp and Adams have shown promise, Adams will continue to develop, Sharp I don’t think will decline just yet. There is an array of contracted options behind them in – Calvert-Lewin, McNulty, Diego, Wright – which we can either embrace or trade in and out. Not a priority for me.

The important factor for me is the cost. 4 to 5 signing is not so substantial. Also recruiting center backs and defensive midfielders are not typically expensive roles. The only which may cost would be the attack minded goal scorer(s).

Contrast this to playing 4-4-2. We’d need 3 defensive players as I doubt we have someone strong enough to be out and out left back too, so have one additional senior player to cater for. We then have no wingers of note so need two additions, and attack-minded wingers who also score the occasional goal don’t come cheap. We would still need the defensive destroyer and attack minded central midfielder, but who also had the mobility to function in a two. Overall, not only would this create more disruption and overall cost, but also the type of players would be expensive too.

Now Adkins has arrived at 3-5-2, assuming he is staying, I’d advocate that he sees it through.
 



I favour 3-5-2, always have. It has worked in home games but has been awful away from home though.

Agree with much of your reasoning Champagne but would see Flynn as a wing back option and not Done who I think is wasted there.

Releasing 17 players is drastic indeed and seeking an optimum squad size of say 23 will be a challenge.

My priorities would be centre half, holding midfield, Coady type box to box midfielder and No.1 striker who can complement Sharp and take some of the burden off him. We have to start the season with a strike force of four players who can all play a part when injuries and suspensions bite. Not sure DCL can be counted in that 4 as yet but Sharp, Adams, McNulty/ Done and a No.1. striker would be fine. How about Rickie Lambert? Let's be ambitious!!
 
Can't really argue with any of that.

Me neither

Are we passing the tin round now, or later on?

Anyone see the flaw in the (well meant) ambition shared by us all?

Yes ...it's McCabe. WIthout flogging good players (and there are precious few now, unfortunately) we won't be bringing anyone in. He has dropped a major revenue stream by 10% (out of fear and cynicism) and the wages of those sorry residuals we hope to jettison like a full Tizer bottle on an away coach will just service the operating losses, the eight million he has flushed down the bog (on Clough's 'cheerio' no doubt) or on another pointless chattel such as a fucking Desso pitch.

Unless our now invisible Saudi prince has some or other epiphany and decides to shove cash our way and our scouting and transfer 'Technical Board' manage to wrest the levers of playing staff acquirement from McCabe, you'd all best fire up Wikipedia for the arrival of more freebie Barry Oddnobs, or the quiet, yet miraculous re-contracting of players who would normally be stood on the touchline in a tracky on Herdings Park waiting for the manager to give him a nod on 75 minuites in the Sheffield and District Mudbath League Division Four.

pommpey
 
Sticking with 3-5-2 should NOT mean signing no proper winger.

Firstly because our current wide options will offer nowhere near enough going forward over the course of a season, and secondly because I highly doubt we'd stick with 3-5-2 all season.

You can afford at least one out and out winger in 3-5-2 in many games, certainly if the wide centre back is suitable and competent in that position, which Baptiste is for example. Even more so if you also have mobility and defensive ability in midfield.

If we were signing no winger then I'd want two very good attacking full backs/wing backs. But that's less realistic, and would represent a full commitment to 3-5-2. I like it as an option but we shouldn't put together a squad that struggles to play 4-4-2 and especially 4-3-3.
 
I favour 3-5-2, always have. It has worked in home games but has been awful away from home though.

Agree with much of your reasoning Champagne but would see Flynn as a wing back option and not Done who I think is wasted there.

Releasing 17 players is drastic indeed and seeking an optimum squad size of say 23 will be a challenge.

My priorities would be centre half, holding midfield, Coady type box to box midfielder and No.1 striker who can complement Sharp and take some of the burden off him. We have to start the season with a strike force of four players who can all play a part when injuries and suspensions bite. Not sure DCL can be counted in that 4 as yet but Sharp, Adams, McNulty/ Done and a No.1. striker would be fine. How about Rickie Lambert? Let's be ambitious!!


On reflection my potential front four strikers lack pace unless we do keep Done and play him up there.
 
I do hope that Adkins will perseveres with 3-5-2 as a formation.

From my reckoning, we are averaging 1.44 points per game in the league overall. Under 3-5-2, it has been 1.64 points per game, which would see us reach between 75-76 points.

If Adkins confirms his plan to stick with this, then he strengthens the thoughts around his own planning. The players also seem to like this, and I would argue less recruitment is required and as such greater continuity can be fostered.

Conversely, if Adkins is going back to 4-4-2, his original preferred formula, then given this failed, more recruitment, which wasn’t Adkins’ strong point this season, must raise further the question as to whether the starting from scratch type operation could be just as well executed with a new manager as well!

As well as building on momentum, I do feel the cost of recruitment and number of changes is a key factor. Some players will be retained and I think we have to be realistic. We aren’t going to bring in front line names and have them as squad players. Also, if we need to recruit on masse, then the time taken over each deal will be diluted.

Of 43 players remaining on the books, I believe as many as 20 are out of contract. I’d be inclined to release 17 of them. This would leave McEveley, McGahey (sorry Deadbat) and possibly Willis depending on feedback from Matlock.

Keeper – Unless a senior, been there, done that, keeper comes available and affordable, Long can develop. Robinson would be a choice for me, not Kenny. You then have a healthy batch of home grown keepers in Willis, Ramsdale and Eastwood.

Back 5 – McEveley has done enough for me to retain a spot. Few players around who have the knowhow of going forward from fullback and the height of a center half to play the LCB role of three so effectively. Get two top drawer center back signings there as your first recruits; as good as Baptiste, more dominating than Edgar. Basham is doing well at right wing back and can offer another center back option. If you keep Brayford and Freeman, both more suited to wingback, you’re collectively covered on the right. On the left, both Wallace and Kelly can be cover for LWB and LCB and McGahey can complete the set of those young enough to accept the role of understudy. If he worked on it in the summer, Done can make the LWB role his own. His energy and enthusiasm is a must and he is a threat, but he isn’t going to displace Sharp. So, 10 defenders - 2 new center backs.

Midfield 3 – I would say we need 2, possibly three players here. We need someone to play the role Hammond plays as destroyer, so that would be one signing. We then need attacking intent and a record for goals, one, possibly two from say Roofe, McGeehan and Moncur would be ideal. I think then we can get away with Reed and Whiteman providing competition plus young Brooks will hopefully also emerge and you still have Basham's versatility. I’d be making efforts to offload Woolford, Coutts and Scougall, but appreciate the odd one may remain and who knows, one might re-emerge. You are talking therefore about six or seven here including possibly three new signings.

Front two – Sharp and Adams have shown promise, Adams will continue to develop, Sharp I don’t think will decline just yet. There is an array of contracted options behind them in – Calvert-Lewin, McNulty, Diego, Wright – which we can either embrace or trade in and out. Not a priority for me.

The important factor for me is the cost. 4 to 5 signing is not so substantial. Also recruiting center backs and defensive midfielders are not typically expensive roles. The only which may cost would be the attack minded goal scorer(s).

Contrast this to playing 4-4-2. We’d need 3 defensive players as I doubt we have someone strong enough to be out and out left back too, so have one additional senior player to cater for. We then have no wingers of note so need two additions, and attack-minded wingers who also score the occasional goal don’t come cheap. We would still need the defensive destroyes and attack minded central midfielder, but who also had the mobility to function in a two. Overall, not only would this create more disruption and overall cost, but also the type of players would be expensive too.

Now Adkins has arrived at 3-5-2, assuming he is staying, I’d advocate that he sees it through.
I think you can take it for granted Camps that Adkins is staying.Inhis latest interview he stated it's not just about formations,it's about attacking football moving the ball quickly with invention which he beleave in (he's being saying this from day 1) it's obvious he likes 4 4 2 but flexibility is the name of the game.Having inherited a big squad getting his mantra across has maybe been difficult, but his message seems to be getting through now he has slimmed it down
 
Sounds like Adkins can't wait to get back to his beloved 4-4-2 (or, rather, 1-4-4-2).

Shiny new season, rusty old formation.
 
3-5-2, if we enjoy success using it and oppositions start treating us as a threat again, can be relatively-easily countered. We've used it quite successfully for a month but we haven't been considered a formidable competitor for some time. The moment oppositions take us seriously again, we may well encounter problems. For this reason, I will fully understand Adkins building a side around 4-4-2.
 
If Basham can remain consistent as a wing back then I'm all for it, but that is a big IF. My main regret is that Baxter never got the chance to play the attacking midfielder role in this formation. He would have excelled at it, taken less criticism and been less likely to go off the rails.
 
Sounds like Adkins can't wait to get back to his beloved 4-4-2 (or, rather, 1-4-4-2).

Shiny new season, rusty old formation.
Why's it beloved? Is that how Southampton played?

Tbh, any formation can be either attacking or defensive, depending on how you set up and any formation can be countered by an opposition manager if he has the right players.

I'm not really bothered how he sets his team up providing it suits the players he's got.
 
I do hope that Adkins will perseveres with 3-5-2 as a formation.

From my reckoning, we are averaging 1.44 points per game in the league overall. Under 3-5-2, it has been 1.64 points per game, which would see us reach between 75-76 points.

If Adkins confirms his plan to stick with this, then he strengthens the thoughts around his own planning. The players also seem to like this, and I would argue less recruitment is required and as such greater continuity can be fostered.

Conversely, if Adkins is going back to 4-4-2, his original preferred formula, then given this failed, more recruitment, which wasn’t Adkins’ strong point this season, must raise further the question as to whether the starting from scratch type operation could be just as well executed with a new manager as well!

As well as building on momentum, I do feel the cost of recruitment and number of changes is a key factor. Some players will be retained and I think we have to be realistic. We aren’t going to bring in front line names and have them as squad players. Also, if we need to recruit on masse, then the time taken over each deal will be diluted.

Of 43 players remaining on the books, I believe as many as 20 are out of contract. I’d be inclined to release 17 of them. This would leave McEveley, McGahey (sorry Deadbat) and possibly Willis depending on feedback from Matlock.

Keeper – Unless a senior, been there, done that, keeper comes available and affordable, Long can develop. Robinson would be a choice for me, not Kenny. You then have a healthy batch of home grown keepers in Willis, Ramsdale and Eastwood.

Back 5 – McEveley has done enough for me to retain a spot. Few players around who have the knowhow of going forward from fullback and the height of a center half to play the LCB role of three so effectively. Get two top drawer center back signings there as your first recruits; as good as Baptiste, more dominating than Edgar. Basham is doing well at right wing back and can offer another center back option. If you keep Brayford and Freeman, both more suited to wingback, you’re collectively covered on the right. On the left, both Wallace and Kelly can be cover for LWB and LCB and McGahey can complete the set of those young enough to accept the role of understudy. If he worked on it in the summer, Done can make the LWB role his own. His energy and enthusiasm is a must and he is a threat, but he isn’t going to displace Sharp. So, 10 defenders - 2 new center backs.

Midfield 3 – I would say we need 2, possibly three players here. We need someone to play the role Hammond plays as destroyer, so that would be one signing. We then need attacking intent and a record for goals, one, possibly two from say Roofe, McGeehan and Moncur would be ideal. I think then we can get away with Reed and Whiteman providing competition plus young Brooks will hopefully also emerge and you still have Basham's versatility. I’d be making efforts to offload Woolford, Coutts and Scougall, but appreciate the odd one may remain and who knows, one might re-emerge. You are talking therefore about six or seven here including possibly three new signings.

Front two – Sharp and Adams have shown promise, Adams will continue to develop, Sharp I don’t think will decline just yet. There is an array of contracted options behind them in – Calvert-Lewin, McNulty, Diego, Wright – which we can either embrace or trade in and out. Not a priority for me.

The important factor for me is the cost. 4 to 5 signing is not so substantial. Also recruiting center backs and defensive midfielders are not typically expensive roles. The only which may cost would be the attack minded goal scorer(s).

Contrast this to playing 4-4-2. We’d need 3 defensive players as I doubt we have someone strong enough to be out and out left back too, so have one additional senior player to cater for. We then have no wingers of note so need two additions, and attack-minded wingers who also score the occasional goal don’t come cheap. We would still need the defensive destroyer and attack minded central midfielder, but who also had the mobility to function in a two. Overall, not only would this create more disruption and overall cost, but also the type of players would be expensive too.

Now Adkins has arrived at 3-5-2, assuming he is staying, I’d advocate that he sees it through.



Good post with the exception that, by my reckoning, 352 has actually seen a return of just 1.4 points per game (14 points over the last 10 games as 352 started against Port Vale). However, interestingly, 352 with Dean Hammond in the team has seen a return of 1.75 points per game (he was banned for the Rochdale and Burton debacles). It could have easily been more points too looking at Saturday’s performance and the Southend game (It seemed we had the better chances).


It’s an interesting system which I enjoyed thoroughly in the autumn of 1997. Arguably the best football we have played in my lifetime and arguably the best team in my lifetime existed for a few months there.


I wouldn’t be against sticking with it but I would like us to sign one winger so we have a plan B and it would offer some competition for the LWB position for Done. Doesn’t have to be a seasoned pro. Wouldn’t mind a prem kid on loan. Just someone with tonnes of pace who is nice and direct. A bit like JCR but young. Coutts offers us a different type on the other side if we play 442 (withdrawn, looking for the overlap, technically sound but slow) so a winger who offers out and out pace down the left would be ideal.
 
I like it

Every modern day football team needs to be able to adapt to a few systems to be successful.

If we buy players to suit 3-5-2 next season we can be successful. We need a more athletic, younger Hammond, a commanding centre half, Baptiste, and a creative midfielder. Oh and a targetman who can actually head the ball.

They could all fit into a 4-4-2 and a 4-3-3 too. But you can see we worry teams playing 3-5-2, 3 of the last 4 opponents have copied our formation when facing us, it only worked for Southend. And that was pretty unfortunate in fairness.
 
Why's it beloved? Is that how Southampton played?

Tbh, any formation can be either attacking or defensive, depending on how you set up and any formation can be countered by an opposition manager if he has the right players.

I'm not really bothered how he sets his team up providing it suits the players he's got.

Oh, 4-4-2 is so


 



Not sure the actual formation matters, just the ability to change it, if necessary, as the game unfolds.

At this level, we should have a plan, but be able to change it as the game progresses, rather than worry about what the opposition is going to do.
 
All depends on the players, it's looked good when Baptisite and to a certain extent Edgar have played, not so clever when they were both absent at Southend.

I still prefer 4-4-2 or 4-4-1-1 but no formation will be any good if we sign a load of cheap or past it crap in the summer.
 
Assuming Wigan go on to win the league, the last two winners of this division will have primarily used 3-5-2.

Which goes completely against my initial thoughts on it as i'm generally not a fan of 3 defenders unless it's at a top team, however you argument is very convincing and I'd say it is the best way to get two up front in modern football. (unless you have a super fit team like Leicester or Atletico Madrid)
 
I disagree, really because when it comes to recruitment it becomes very narrow.

If you recruit for a 3-5-2, you need 2 wing backs, that can both attack and defend with real purpose and quality. That is not only extremely rare (particularly at this level) but would be damn expensive (which we don't have). Also, your 3 centre backs need to be shit hot, so we'd need 3 of them!

However, recruiting for a 4-4-2 is much easier at this level, and still allows an easier transition to switch to 4-2-3-1, 4-4-1-1 or 4-3-3.

I have nothing against 3-5-2, it can be extremely effective. However, it's so dependent on your 2 wingbacks, and we would need some truly talented players in those positions to make it work. I just don't see us spending the money on 2/3 players of genuine quality to play there.

A flat back 4 allows for more flexibility and is easier to recruit for, IMO.
 
Me neither

Are we passing the tin round now, or later on?

Anyone see the flaw in the (well meant) ambition shared by us all?

Yes ...it's McCabe. WIthout flogging good players (and there are precious few now, unfortunately) we won't be bringing anyone in. He has dropped a major revenue stream by 10% (out of fear and cynicism) and the wages of those sorry residuals we hope to jettison like a full Tizer bottle on an away coach will just service the operating losses, the eight million he has flushed down the bog (on Clough's 'cheerio' no doubt) or on another pointless chattel such as a fucking Desso pitch.

Unless our now invisible Saudi prince has some or other epiphany and decides to shove cash our way and our scouting and transfer 'Technical Board' manage to wrest the levers of playing staff acquirement from McCabe, you'd all best fire up Wikipedia for the arrival of more freebie Barry Oddnobs, or the quiet, yet miraculous re-contracting of players who would normally be stood on the touchline in a tracky on Herdings Park waiting for the manager to give him a nod on 75 minuites in the Sheffield and District Mudbath League Division Four.

pommpey
It's not just about fees though. It depends on how much the wagebill shrinks by when players are released, and the planned level for next season. There could easily (or easily not) be plenty there for a decent centre half and 2 decent midfielders at this level. It there might be another club insane enough to take Coutts off us!

We don't know the numbers, but it's not for certain that additional investment is required.

Of course we'll fuck it up whatever we do. :)

UTB
 
I disagree, really because when it comes to recruitment it becomes very narrow.

If you recruit for a 3-5-2, you need 2 wing backs, that can both attack and defend with real purpose and quality. That is not only extremely rare (particularly at this level) but would be damn expensive (which we don't have). Also, your 3 centre backs need to be shit hot, so we'd need 3 of them!

However, recruiting for a 4-4-2 is much easier at this level, and still allows an easier transition to switch to 4-2-3-1, 4-4-1-1 or 4-3-3.

I have nothing against 3-5-2, it can be extremely effective. However, it's so dependent on your 2 wingbacks, and we would need some truly talented players in those positions to make it work. I just don't see us spending the money on 2/3 players of genuine quality to play there.

A flat back 4 allows for more flexibility and is easier to recruit for, IMO.
I don't disagree and I'd also say that it's even harder to make it work in the championship, as Cotteril has found out so if we were to go up we'd probably have to change again.

That said, whatever NA does is fine by me if it works.
 
Bristol City last season, Wigan this and Juventus are examples of teams having some success with 3-5-2. But all may be described as the richest clubs at their level and may have been favourites to win regardless of their formation. Who's got more examples of successful 3-5-2 teams, beyond one season?
 
Bristol City last season, Wigan this and Juventus are examples of teams having some success with 3-5-2. But all may be described as the richest clubs at their level and may have been favourites to win regardless of their formation. Who's got more examples of successful 3-5-2 teams, beyond one season?

Googled: didn't find anything immediately, but did turn up a very good Beginner's Guide to 3-5-2 here

 
Good post with the exception that, by my reckoning, 352 has actually seen a return of just 1.4 points per game (14 points over the last 10 games as 352 started against Port Vale). However, interestingly, 352 with Dean Hammond in the team has seen a return of 1.75 points per game (he was banned for the Rochdale and Burton debacles). It could have easily been more points too looking at Saturday’s performance and the Southend game (It seemed we had the better chances).


It’s an interesting system which I enjoyed thoroughly in the autumn of 1997. Arguably the best football we have played in my lifetime and arguably the best team in my lifetime existed for a few months there.


I wouldn’t be against sticking with it but I would like us to sign one winger so we have a plan B and it would offer some competition for the LWB position for Done. Doesn’t have to be a seasoned pro. Wouldn’t mind a prem kid on loan. Just someone with tonnes of pace who is nice and direct. A bit like JCR but young. Coutts offers us a different type on the other side if we play 442 (withdrawn, looking for the overlap, technically sound but slow) so a winger who offers out and out pace down the left would be ideal.


Now just under 1.9 points per game when we've played 352 with Dean Hammond in the team. 2 Points per game if we take out the 2 games over easter where we were missing Edgar and Baptiste. Signs of a decent team emerging?
 
The formation is just a smokescreen. We should be getting out of this league or at least challenging to get out of this league with any formation. Championing 3-5-2 is just way of making a case to keep some of the slackers who have really let us and the manager down this season.
 
Adkins has shown his willingness to adapt systems..unlike the previous two or three managers who appeared fairly stuck in their ways...
 
The formation is just a smokescreen. We should be getting out of this league or at least challenging to get out of this league with any formation. Championing 3-5-2 is just way of making a case to keep some of the slackers who have really let us and the manager down this season.

"We sould be getting out of this league or at least challenging to get out of this league with any formation."

???

Given that we haven't done this (properly) in five long seasons, shouldn't we be encouraging a system that offers a bit of hope we can finally escape this Third Division hell-hole?
 
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Bristol City last season, Wigan this and Juventus are examples of teams having some success with 3-5-2. But all may be described as the richest clubs at their level and may have been favourites to win regardless of their formation. Who's got more examples of successful 3-5-2 teams, beyond one season?


We were excellent in the first half of the 97-98 season playing that system. Again, one of the strongest squads in the division though.
 

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