If SOD's performance is anything to go by...

Weir wasn't sacked because of a change in strategy. He was sacked because he had us in the relegation area and looked clueless about what to do about it. It looked like a forward thinking appointment at the time but he was clearly out of his depth as a manager.

Sacking managers isn't really the problem, it's appointing the wrong ones in the first place.
 

Yes hoe daft of me to base my opinions on how we play! Much better to get them from the BBC website like you.

I expect us to be better because we get bigger crowds, meaning we can pay higher fees and better salaries.

If you don't think we should be doing better you're supporting the wrong team.

Try Alfreton. They may match your ambition.

Yeah but we're actually brilliant because Leicester are top of the Premiership table don't forget.....
 
you know what I mean
had we won the games at bury rochdale etc we should have with the players playing to their capabilities instead of looking like theyve never met
we should be in there
we are even by our poor standards 10 points short of what we should have if we were playing to something like we were a year ago

its so frustrating when you know they are capable of being better than how they are performing
I am not so sure they are capable.
 
I would have opted for S.O'D on two occasions we changed managers. In other words I would have done no better than McCabe in truth, maybe, maybe not. Some managers take to certain jobs and the place suits them. Owen Coyle looked a world-beater at Burnley when they beat us at Wembley. Lambert at Norwich.

Whatever we might say, it's not easy picking managers who are big enough to manage our club; it's a relatively big club with awesome challenges the longer we are out of the Championship, never mind the Prem.



Never been a huge fan of SOD. Was surprised at his winning start at Wallsall but not surprised to seem them falter now. Dean Smith on the other hand is a manager I rate. I really wanted us to appoint him instead of Clough at the time.


I agree though about managers seeming like a good bet based on spells at previous clubs. But I also think that if you’ve got a manager who has proven he has some ability (Like we have now), then the best way for them to succeed is for them to build their own squad to play the way they want to play and to keep tweaking and improving over time. Changing managers all the time is a big contributor to those managers being “failures”. Warnock might have got us back up at the first attempt. Blackwell would have probably kept us knocking about mid-table. Adams might have got us back up at the first attempt. Wilson kept us somewhere near whilst losing all his best players Clough wasn’t miles away. Adkins is a bit further away but could still come good when he gets his own men in.


Give a manager time to build a squad and don’t sell his best player every season. Then, he might not be a shit manager.
 
the annoying thing is we could and should be well in the mix
I was repeatedly told it was impossible to get up there as the top 6 wouldnt falter
but walsall and coventry are imploding

had we won 3 and drawn 1 more of the last 10 , which was well within our squad a year ago,s capabilities we would be joint 3rd
Barnsley have gone from relegation fodder to top 6 since xmas to prove anything was possible
we ve been our own worst enemy with a total lack of belief engendered throughout the squad


It was never impossible. It’s just that none of us had faith in this squad of imposters doing it. And so it proved.
 
We'll get a measure of how good these players are when we release them shortly and the professionals get to judge.

By your reckoning they will go onto better things.

By mine, they won't. Let's see.....


UTB



Assuming we offer Long a new deal and release the rest, I’m pretty certain that the vast majority will sign for clubs finishing lower than us this season.
 
The players here have shown in the past couple of seasons they can do better, much better, they thrilled us in cup runs went to bristol city and won so they could raise their level. A manager who can get the best out of them would show they are better than what theyve given this sesson .Not world beaters Im not saying that but they could perform to a much better level than they have done


The first cup run involved Maguire, Coady, Doyle and Murphy.


The 2nd still had Doyle and Murphy.


Also, Clough’s style was conducive to causing cup upsets but it meant we struggled to break down teams at home.


We ought to have been able to adequately replace Doyle but when you sell players like Murphy season on season, you will generally be worse than the season before. Take out the Weir blip from the record and our league positions since we’ve been down here go like this



2012 3rd 90 points


2013 5th 75 points


2014 7th 67 points but that included the Weir debacle. Clough’s record would have had us 5th again.


2015 5th 71 points


2016 Probabaly 10-14th with probably about 60-65 points.


We’ve been in gradual decline throughout. The only way we’re going to turn it round is with a bit of continuity at management level and not selling our best player every year. Let’s actually improve the squad season on season instead of weakening it each time.
 
You've picked out a couple of random performances from an entire season.

By and large they performed shit last season too, anyone who watched them would tell you that.

Where was the manager who could get the best out of them when we were losing at home to the same teams we've lost to this season?

What's the point In getting up for a couple of cup games and nor the bread and butter in the league?



Losses at home to Crewe, Fleetwood, Peterborough etc. holding on and time-wasting for a draw at home to 10 man Bradford and losing at doomed Yeovil last season showed our shortcomings. Murphy bailed us out against Gillingham (H), Doncaster (A), Swindon (H). That’s 6 points difference straight away.


We don’t have a player that can make something from nothing like he did last season.
 
You have to have something about you as a player to get in the play offs like ee did last season, just repeatedly insisting they aee shit denies the fact they had the ability to get in the play offs and scsre the shit out of Spurs



There will also be some very mediocre teams in the playoffs this season. Generally speaking, the teams that can’t finish in the top 3 or 4 of this league are not very good at all.
 
getting in the play offs shows you are better than 18 other clubs, on merit
then you get a 1 in 4 chance of going up ,
over 46 games we were better than huddersfield but they went up so the best team doesnt always go up
so it shows they arent as shit as some



But barring our first season down here, we’ve also been worse than four or more other teams in this league over the course of each season which suggests we’ve been pretty fucking crap.
 
so the league table final position is an internet stat now

you really are scraping the barrel
we finished 5th last season , how is that an internet stat, its how they put it ,in the record books

Players who were good enough to finish 5th last season havent been managed into improving
thats an internet stat


We finished 28 points behind the champions and 20 points off the top 2. 18 points off third and 8 points off 4th. Pointswise, we were closer to relegation than the champions. We were just slightly less shit than 19 other teams but nowhere near as good as the top 3. In a lot of seasons the 71 points we amassed wouldn’t have got us into the playoffs. Let’s not pretend we were good. We were just slightly better than we are now. Reasons for that include:-


Jamie Murphy

Steven Davies

Jason Holt

Michael Doyle

The fact that the manager who had assembled the squad was managing them.

Those are the things we don’t have now. And we’ll probably finish about 8-10 points worse off as a result which seems about right.
 
All just goes to show you can't hang on a manager's past glories. If he's shit right now, then he's shit right now (regardless of what he's done in the past.)

Mojos & all that.
 
Never been a huge fan of SOD. Was surprised at his winning start at Wallsall but not surprised to seem them falter now. Dean Smith on the other hand is a manager I rate. I really wanted us to appoint him instead of Clough at the time.


I agree though about managers seeming like a good bet based on spells at previous clubs. But I also think that if you’ve got a manager who has proven he has some ability (Like we have now), then the best way for them to succeed is for them to build their own squad to play the way they want to play and to keep tweaking and improving over time. Changing managers all the time is a big contributor to those managers being “failures”. Warnock might have got us back up at the first attempt. Blackwell would have probably kept us knocking about mid-table. Adams might have got us back up at the first attempt. Wilson kept us somewhere near whilst losing all his best players Clough wasn’t miles away. Adkins is a bit further away but could still come good when he gets his own men in.


Give a manager time to build a squad and don’t sell his best player every season. Then, he might not be a shit manager.


I have said and always will say a manager is as good as his signings. Clough was brilliant with us until his own signings settled in but he had no excuse as he had a good budget and his own Head Scout. Adkins has his own man in place too but he's only found him one player as yet - Baptiste, who could well be a big player for us next season; prior to Turnbull arriving Adkins signings were 1 good out of 5.

Of course, signing good players is only part of the equation. Getting the players motivated to play as a team is just as important. I have a hunch that Adkins is one who can get the pot boiling vigorously once he's got it stoked up, whereas Clough may well be one of those who can't push on the full throttle because he has inhibitions and personality traits that sort of keep a cap on things rather than letting the individuals express themselves and the group flourish.

I reckon once Adkins has a group of believers round him then his motivational abilities can take players above their natural level. He's done it 4 times with promotions and let's hope he can do it again next season. To date with us he has had to try and motivate too many weary and cynical non-achievers who see their future elsewhere anyway.

Only time will tell.
 
It was never impossible. It’s just that none of us had faith in this squad of imposters doing it. And so it proved.

again are they imposters or really badly managed , the team that beat a good southampton team won at west ham and shook Spurs means they arent total dorks
if nige 1 could get them to perform why cant nigel 2
 
But barring our first season down here, we’ve also been worse than four or more other teams in this league over the course of each season which suggests we’ve been pretty fucking crap.

thing Im discussing is why weve regressed under nigel 2, the momentum has swung the wrong way
being 5th logic is it was a small progressive step to get in that top 4 , but weve sunk to mid table
 

again are they imposters or really badly managed , the team that beat a good southampton team won at west ham and shook Spurs means they arent total dorks
if nige 1 could get them to perform why cant nigel 2

3 results out of 50.
Nigel 1 very often could not get them to perform.
As has been pointed out to you (once or twice).
 
All your ever changing opinions are based purely on stats.

Football is a bit more complicated than that.

For example, it's a fact/stat that we scored a couple of goals against Tottenham.

Having watched us all last season I can tell you it's not a fact that this meant we were really good last season, because we weren't.

Clough was given free reign to sign who he liked for a title shot, we stumbled into 5th and lost at home to Swindon.
whats changed in my opinion
I thought under a GOOD manager we could improve our currenmt players with a couple of good additions to ensure a play off spot

Ive not changed anything but come to the realisation Adkins is taking us backwards , not forwards
we have 5 or 6 players good enough to challenge as weve proved by finishing 5th last year
we should have,,, under a good manager, improved 10 per cent
Instead weve regressed
I never said we were really good last season
more bollocks your attributing to me I never said
I said we were good enough to finish 5th, which is I believe what they call a fact
not the stuff you make up
 
3 results out of 50.
Nigel 1 very often could not get them to perform.
As has been pointed out to you (once or twice).

you really do talk bollocks so we were shit in the other 47
your claim is uniteds been aBSOLUTE SHIT IN 47 OF 50 GAMES LAST SEASON

We were absolute shit at West Ham in your opinion for starters


REALLY
 
you really do talk bollocks so we were shit in the other 47
your claim is uniteds been aBSOLUTE SHIT IN 47 OF 50 GAMES LAST SEASON

REALLY

Have you lost the ability to read?
I said you've hand picked 3 results out of 50 to pretend we were good.

That's exactly what you've done.

I also said we weren't very good for most of last season.

We weren't.


Feel free to fact check this with anyone else who went regularly last season.
 
Finishing 5th sounds good on paper.

Then you remember we were 8 points off 4th, 18 points off 3rd and a whopping 20 points off 2nd.

Last year was an open net in the sense that minus Bristol, MK and Preston, the rest of the sides were either nothing special or just poor. There was an open net, and because we signed Higdon instead of a decent recognised goalscorer, we fluffed the shot 3 feet wide and shat our shorts in the process.
 
cant find that bit
reads only 3 results out of 50

Wow, this is so much more difficult than it needs to be.

Your post highlighted the Southampton, West Ham and Spurs games as proof that 'we weren't total dorks'.

By my count, that equals 3 games that you've cherry picked. See what I did there?

You then go on to say that Nigel 1 could get them to perform.

I simply challenged that as quite often, he could not. I know this because I watched it happen.

We on the same page now?
 
Wow, this is so much more difficult than it needs to be.

Your post highlighted the Southampton, West Ham and Spurs games as proof that 'we weren't total dorks'.

By my count, that equals 3 games that you've cherry picked. See what I did there?

You then go on to say that Nigel 1 could get them to perform.

I simply challenged that as quite often, he could not. I know this because I watched it happen.

We on the same page now?[/QUOTE

but you intimated they were 3 good results in 50
your the one making it hard, why say they are only 3
bradford away barnsley away swindon and preston at home all cracking performances, for starters
but no you dismissed them all in your we were and are totally shit with not an ounce of talent argument

´Nigel got them on occasions to look good , you say they never did
but he did on far more occasions than this season
 
but you intimated they were 3 good results in 50
your the one making it hard, why say they are only 3
bradford away barnsley away swindon and preston at home all cracking performances, for starters
but no you dismissed them all in your we were and are totally shit with not an ounce of talent argument

´Nigel got them on occasions to look good , you say they never did
but he did on far more occasions than this season

Jesus Christ. Because they're the three you used as examples of us playing well last season.

But congratulations, I've lost the will to live, and for that reason, I'm bowing out of attempting this discussion with you.

I'm off to smash my head into a brick wall.
 
Good post. Warrants a diatribe that does!!

One definition of 'strategy' is " a plan of action to achieve a long term or overall aim".

Strategy is part of success. Implementation is another part, sometimes a much bigger part at certain stages of a club's development.

I'm all for sticking with the implementer i.e. the manager when we know we have a good one capable of doing the job at hand ( the strategy) and that is to get us promoted to the Championship with a squad good enough to compete there and to challenge for promotion to the Premier League within a short timescale. Another part of the strategy is to have the club infrastructure ready for the day the club competes at those levels.

As far as I can see McCabe and the prince entrust implementation of the strategy to their incumbent football manager who is backed financially at great expense to employ his own management team and is given a budget amongst the best in the league. They say, and it has never been disputed, that they never interfere with footballing decisions with which they duly empower the manager and make him accountable. Any manager will appreciate that clubs at this level are powerless to stand in the way of players who get the opportunity to play at a higher level and earn multiple salary increases. That's part of the job description, it's a 'given'.

So, just looking at the past 5 years in League 1.

Wilson inherited a 'dream squad' and a top budget and failed over 2 years. Strategy still intact.

Weir was given the task of implementing a completely new strategy but the prince joined us and changed the strategy back overnight so Weir was ditched.

Clough was given unprecedented powers and a big budget for the league and he failed ( exceeded his implementation authorities in player recruitment too - that's how much empowerment and autonomy he had in his 2 years with us). Strategy intact.

Adkins - work in progress but has had a really hard time in his first eight and a half months which is no time at all in the whole scheme of things. Strategy intact.

My signature below has been 'intact' for a couple of years. I wrote it late 2013 when Clough was well into his job and I feel the same now.

I have doubts that Adkins still has what it takes, despite his excellent C.V. Only time will tell whether he is big enough to succeed with us and that's the point, he has to have another year or more and the club usually gives managers that. By then the 'strategisers' will know whether the manager is putting a squad and a culture in place to take us to the Premier League in due course i.e. progress towards the strategy. It looks a long way off frankly but it's a worthy strategy, however it's a major challenge for any manager because there's an air of doom and despondency around S2, even hatred in parts.

One final word. The Barnsley Chairman suddenly looks like a great 'strategist'.

Barnsley seem to have a better club culture than us and what kick started there season is the calibre of loan players brought into the club and how they have fitted / gelled into the first team straight away both young and old .

We have brought loan players in who must be on a bigger weekly wage , than them at Barnsley. , but not brought a betterment to the team overall at the lane . Is this the club or Adkins.

The Barnsley board kept there nerve with the manager who went to Bristol , but did not seem to try that hard to keep him. They had confidence in the back rom staff / coaches who were stopping , with carry on as is . That was the strategy with loan players who can slot into a system .

Good players already at the club has helped whoever finished up in charge .

The strategy appears to get a good mix of loan players and you have cracked it . Also the more money the experienced loan players you have , are on , the failure seems higher .

Do Coventry wished they had now not committed to Joe Cole .

UTB
 
Jesus Christ. Because they're the three you used as examples of us playing well last season.

But congratulations, I've lost the will to live, and for that reason, I'm bowing out of attempting this discussion with you.

I'm off to smash my head into a brick wall.

but you intimated they were 3 good results in 50
your the one making it hard, why say they are only 3
bradford away barnsley away swindon and preston at home all cracking performances, for starters
but no you dismissed them all in your we were and are totally shit with not an ounce of talent argument

´Nigel got them on occasions to look good , you say they never did
but he did on far more occasions than this season


Call it quits and move on, you're spoiling the thread!
 
I have said and always will say a manager is as good as his signings. Clough was brilliant with us until his own signings settled in but he had no excuse as he had a good budget and his own Head Scout. Adkins has his own man in place too but he's only found him one player as yet - Baptiste, who could well be a big player for us next season; prior to Turnbull arriving Adkins signings were 1 good out of 5.

Of course, signing good players is only part of the equation. Getting the players motivated to play as a team is just as important. I have a hunch that Adkins is one who can get the pot boiling vigorously once he's got it stoked up, whereas Clough may well be one of those who can't push on the full throttle because he has inhibitions and personality traits that sort of keep a cap on things rather than letting the individuals express themselves and the group flourish.

I reckon once Adkins has a group of believers round him then his motivational abilities can take players above their natural level. He's done it 4 times with promotions and let's hope he can do it again next season. To date with us he has had to try and motivate too many weary and cynical non-achievers who see their future elsewhere anyway.

Only time will tell.




Good post. The only part I would question is the judgment of managers based on signings. It’s often hard to determine where the fault lays on such issues. We know Clough wanted to keep Maguire and to sign Brayford and COG in the summer of 2014. Those above the manager conduct the deals for players and it seems we generally failed to get his first choice and for every first choice we seemed to sign 2 back up choices. I’m not sure who’s decision it was to go down that route. But I suspect Clough wouldn’t have brought the likes of Alcock, Higdon etc. to the club if his preferred choices had been landed.


Adkins inherited a very big squad, didn’t have control of the retained list, had his best player immediately sold and had, what has proven to be a bunch of yellow bellied losers to work with. It’s understandable that he went for players who he knew who he believed would add some much needed character (Hammond and Sharp in particular but Edgar is an international captain) as well as height (Woolford, Edgar, Sammon and Hammond) as these were both attributes we were desperately lacking. Unfortunately, since their time with Adkins previously, Hammond and Woolford have lost a yard limiting their effectiveness. I think he hoped they would galvanise other, more talented members of the squad into performing.


We all know it’s a re-building job in the summer as opposed to the sticking plaster job he’s been doing to try to get us up this season. Let’s hope the approach changes to reflect that.

 

again are they imposters or really badly managed , the team that beat a good southampton team won at west ham and shook Spurs means they arent total dorks
if nige 1 could get them to perform why cant nigel 2


As already discussed, Nige 1 had Jamie Murphy and loads of loan players and still only managed to get 71 points. His style was suited to nullifying opponents better than them so it worked well against the Prem teams. Judging on the league and the net player spend since the end of the season, I think there’s little difference in performance.
 

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