SUFC as a business ?

[Sean Thornton]

Thanks.

So essentially SU Ltd is McCabe whilst BL Ltd is MCabe/The Prince

So MCabe (with his SU Ltd hat on) is paying £2.5million interest to whom? The banks?

And Scarborough Group companies/McCabe family.

 

[Darren]

And Scarborough Group companies/McCabe family.

So if SU Ltd's only income is a 6 figure sum it gets for renting the ground where does it get the money from to pay £2.5m in interest?

 

[Sean Thornton]

Why is the ground under SU Ltd and not SUFC Ltd and thus BL Ltd with the other owner?

That's what I'd like to know.

All explained by McCabe at the time.

Plus if the deal with HRH goes South, the ground is safe.

 

[Sean Thornton]

So if SU Ltd's only income is a 6 figure sum it gets for renting the ground where does it get the money from to pay £2.5m in interest?

It's accrued and not paid I imagine.

 

[Darren]

It's accrued and not paid I imagine.

So if you don't actually pay the interest, it can go in your accounts as a debt?

Obviously the banks wouldn't stand for interest not being paid, so we can safely assume can we not that the interest SU Ltd owes must be owed to McCabe with another hat on?

If that's right, I assume that McCabe is letting SU Ltd's debt to him (including accumulated interest) build up in the hope some mug will buy him out/United will get in the PL?

The other option - and I think this is what people fear, though not me - is that he could put SU Ltd into liquidation and force it to sell his assets to pay his debts - i.e. sell the ground.

 

[Sean Thornton]

So if you don't actually pay the interest, it can go in your accounts as a debt?

Obviously the banks wouldn't stand for interest not being paid, so we can safely assume can we not that the interest SU Ltd owes must be owed to McCabe with another hat on?

If that's right, I assume that McCabe is letting SU Ltd's debt to him (including accumulated interest) build up in the hope some mug will buy him out/United will get in the PL?

The other option - and I think this is what people fear, though not me - is that he could put SU Ltd into liquidation and force it to sell his assets to pay his debts - i.e. sell the ground.

Yes.

No one will buy SU Ltd, it's a dead duck. They may buy the ground from it though.

He'd gain nothing as he'd be writing off his own money. Plus appointing a liquidator takes away the control he currently has.

 

[Deaneandagana]

It's accrued and not paid I imagine.

It's being rolled up.

 

[Sean Thornton]

It's being rolled up.

Yes. Accrued.

 

[Darren]

Yes.

No one will buy SU Ltd, it's a dead duck. They may buy the ground from it though.

He'd gain nothing as he'd be writing off his own money. Plus appointing a liquidator takes away the control he currently has.

Another thought. If he allows the interest liability of SU Ltd to build up, there will come a point when the liabilities of the company exceed its assets and it will be insolvent. What then?

 

[Sean Thornton]

Another thought. If he allows the interest liability of SU Ltd to build up, there will come a point when the liabilities of the company exceed its assets and it will be insolvent. What then?

He supports it or his loans to it can be written off or he stops charging the interest. You can go on forever with what ifs though. The balance sheet is in a negative position now from memory. Read the auditors report for more info.

 

[BushBlade]

you will give a shit when we really go down the shitter mate. this is what is behind the mess the club is in. the booth analogy is a really good one IMO

No I won't. I'm used to it, I'm resigned to it. But, most importantly, there's nothing I can do to change it.
I posted on BM for over ten years, I've read all this stuff a thousand times. I don't need to read it again until something changes.

 

[super_pig]

No I won't. I'm used to it, I'm resigned to it. But, most importantly, there's nothing I can do to change it.
I posted on BM for over ten years, I've read all this stuff a thousand times. I don't need to read it again until something changes.

i can't put this any more politely.. you're in the wrong place then mate

 

[Sean Thornton]

Darren, if insolvency is a worry, the latest football club accounts show a shareholders deficit of over £11 million quid. Now I know this will have people flocking to Morrisons panic buying basic foodstuffs, claiming the board have nicked it etc and asking where the multi millions from player sales and cup runs has gone but it doesn't mean the company is going under.

Probably shouldn't post it but the comedy value that'll come from it is probabl worth it.

 

[Sothall_Blade]

The 2015 accounts are now filed at Companies House.

Cheers I'll check them out

Would it please be possible to post a link to these if they are available free to everyone?

I found the 2014 yearend results on this site but not the 2015 yearend:-

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/00061564/filing-history

Is it not a bit strange that the official website of the football club has links to the account of SU Ltd but not SUFC Limited?

The SUFC Limited accounts are obviously of far more interest and relevance to fans of the football club.

 

[Deaneandagana]

Would it please be possible to post a link to these if they are available free to everyone?

I found the 2014 yearend results on this site but not the 2015 yearend:-

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/00061564/filing-history

Is it not a bit strange that the official website of the football club has links to the account of SU Ltd but not SUFC Limited?

The SUFC Limited accounts are obviously of far more interest and relevance to fans of the football club.

I looked this morning and its only the accounts for SU Ltd (KMac's Co) that are published.

Key numbers.....

Rental income - charged to the football club for ground rental £310k up from £129k previous year.

Admin expenses - £759k up from £576k previous year, no indication given of what these are made up of.

Interest payable (net) £2.1m up from £1.45m previous year.

Loss for year £2.56m down from loss of £3.4m previous year.

Note - interest on loans payable to Scarborough Luxembourg Sarl (loan o/s £19.2m), Scarborough United Group Ltd (loan o/s £7.5m) & Scarborough Management Ltd (loan o/s £796k).

Balance sheet, fixed assets (ground, Shirecliffe) £22.7m

Debtors £3.1m

Loans £27.5m
Creditors £662.5

 

[MobileBlade]

I think your post said that the Prince owns 50% of nothing of value other than player registrations. It is this company that actually owns the "Golden Ticket" for the Football League. Without the ticket, the club would not be able to operate in the FL and therefore it's value is probably far more than the ground.

 

[Sean Thornton]

Would it please be possible to post a link to these if they are available free to everyone?

I found the 2014 yearend results on this site but not the 2015 yearend:-

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/00061564/filing-history

Is it not a bit strange that the official website of the football club has links to the account of SU Ltd but not SUFC Limited?

The SUFC Limited accounts are obviously of far more interest and relevance to fans of the football club.

 

[Deaneandagana]

I think your post said that the Prince owns 50% of nothing of value other than player registrations. It is this company that actually owns the "Golden Ticket" for the Football League. Without the ticket, the club would not be able to operate in the FL and therefore it's value is probably far more than the ground.

Golden ticket or not, would look a bit silly playing its games in Concorde park

 

[Sean Thornton]

Would it please be possible to post a link to these if they are available free to everyone?

I found the 2014 yearend results on this site but not the 2015 yearend:-

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/00061564/filing-history

Is it not a bit strange that the official website of the football club has links to the account of SU Ltd but not SUFC Limited?

The SUFC Limited accounts are obviously of far more interest and relevance to fans of the football club.

 

[Sean Thornton]

Would it please be possible to post a link to these if they are available free to everyone?

I found the 2014 yearend results on this site but not the 2015 yearend:-

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/00061564/filing-history

Is it not a bit strange that the official website of the football club has links to the account of SU Ltd but not SUFC Limited?

The SUFC Limited accounts are obviously of far more interest and relevance to fans of the football club.

That's odd, but you are correct. The Blades Leisure ones don't appear either but I have a copy of those.

SU Ltd is the old Plc and has many many shareholders. The FC is effectively a privately owned company wit KMc HRH and original share shareholders. You're correct though that the real interest is in the FC accounts.

 

[Keen Blade]

Thanks.

So essentially SU Ltd is McCabe whilst BL Ltd is MCabe/The Prince

So MCabe (with his SU Ltd hat on) is paying £2.5million interest to whom? The banks?

SEAN - I have found your responses extrememly helpful , thank you.

If you could just answer DARREN's last question , it would settle the issue in my head for good.

The (alarming) £2.5m pa of interest payments made by SU Ltd - who is the recipient ?

And is it (in your opinion) irrelevant , because it is not affecting the football club ?

In which case , can I sleep easy on the basis that :

MCabe has for long years had effective ownership of the Lane and he still owns it now - so NOTHING REALLY CHANGED (except on paper) about the ownership of the Lane , in the Prince deal.

In fact at the time of the Prince deal , the FOOTBALL club BENEFITTED by having a large amount of debt (matching the value of the Lane) transferred away from it into SU Ltd.

Because otherwise the Prince would never have invested in the FOOTBALL club (if it had been laden with debt).

And he paid only £1 because , without the Lane , it was practically worthless in financial terms , having no real assets.

MCabe is NOT getting an above-market (10%) return by way of high interest payments from the FOOTBALL club.

And it would be totally unfair to rank MCabe alongside the Paul Woolhouses & Stephen Hinchliffes of this world.

With thanks ,

Keen Blade

 

[Darren]

SEAN - I have found your responses extrememly helpful , thank you.

If you could just answer DARREN's last question , it would settle the issue in my head for good.

The (alarming) £2.5m pa of interest payments made by SU Ltd - who is the recipient ?

And is it (in your opinion) irrelevant , because it is not affecting the football club ?

In which case , can I sleep easy on the basis that :

MCabe has for long years had effective ownership of the Lane and he still owns it now - so NOTHING REALLY CHANGED (except on paper) about the ownership of the Lane , in the Prince deal.

In fact at the time of the Prince deal , the FOOTBALL club BENEFITTED by having a large amount of debt (matching the value of the Lane) transferred away from it into SU Ltd.

Because otherwise the Prince would never have invested in the FOOTBALL club (if it had been laden with debt).

And he paid only £1 because , without the Lane , it was practically worthless in financial terms , having no real assets.

MCabe is NOT getting an above-market (10%) return by way of high interest payments from the FOOTBALL club.

And it would be totally unfair to rank MCabe alongside the Paul Woolhouses & Stephen Hinchliffes of this world.

With thanks ,

Keen Blade

I think the upshot is that the payments are theoretically due to McCabe with another hat on, but are never actually paid - they just appear on the balance sheet as owing.

 

[Sean Thornton]

I think the upshot is that the payments are theoretically due to McCabe with another hat on, but are never actually paid - they just appear on the balance sheet as owing.

No cash flow to pay them so that's the only option as things stand I'd guess.

Keen, he paid ten million quid cash for his fifty percent shareholding, not £1. That's a fact.

 

[derryblade]

It's only my opinion, but I would love our football club and assets to be under one umbrella. Football team, ground and academy all together one price to a prospective buyer. How much Kevin?

 

[BushBlade]

It's only my opinion, but I would love our football club and assets to be under one umbrella. Football team, ground and academy all together one price to a prospective buyer. How much Kevin?

Who says they're not, for the right price?

 

[derryblade]

Who says they're not, for the right price?

Just out of curiosity I wonder what that price might be, just a ball park figure would be nice.

 

[BushBlade]

Just out of curiosity I wonder what that price might be, just a ball park figure would be nice.

Not a clue. KM still harbours hope of returning to the PL, where, if we stayed up for a couple of seasons and established ourselves, we could be worth well in excess of £100m. If he sold his 50% then, he'd get the bulk of his money back.
Right now, I'd guess we're worth around £25-30m and he wouldn't let it go for that.

 

[Keen Blade]

No cash flow to pay them so that's the only option as things stand I'd guess.

Keen, he paid ten million quid cash for his fifty percent shareholding, not £1. That's a fact.

Thanks Sean ,

I kinda knew the Prince had invested his own real and substantial money in some way or other (ie: not the £1 coin everyone talks about).

Did his £10m go straight into BL / the football club , as a subscription for new equity , therefore directly for the football club to use ?

Or did it go to SU / MCabe , as the purchase price for 50% of BL / the football club , in which case the football club didn't actually benefit ?
If it went to SU / MCabe , thereby allowing MCabe to "sell to the Prince" part of his ownership of the football club for £10m , has the Prince subsequently put extra funds (over and above the £10m) into the football club to move it forward or subsidize its losses and if so:
How much ?
By what means - loans or equity ?

Thank-you keenly , in advance of your kind assistance.

 

[Sean Thornton]

Thanks Sean ,

I kinda knew the Prince had invested his own real and substantial money in some way or other (ie: not the £1 coin everyone talks about).

Did his £10m go straight into BL / the football club , as a subscription for new equity , therefore directly for the football club to use ?

Or did it go to SU / MCabe , as the purchase price for 50% of BL / the football club , in which case the football club didn't actually benefit ?
If it went to SU / MCabe , thereby allowing MCabe to "sell to the Prince" part of his ownership of the football club for £10m , has the Prince subsequently put extra funds (over and above the £10m) into the football club to move it forward or subsidize its losses and if so:
How much ?
By what means - loans or equity ?

Thank-you keenly , in advance of your kind assistance.

Ten million cash. Into the account not to KMc.
McCabes ten million quids worth of shares relates to part of a debt write off, the balance, some twenty five million or so charged to a share premium account. The 2014 accounts show this.

 

[Sean Thornton]

All equity btw or it wouldn't qualify for SCMP.

I believe there's another £2 million gone in.