Collins and confirmation bias

[longinthe toothblade]

I understand that stalkers often go to some extraordinarily lengths

..........if not extraordinary x

 

[Balham]

Just an aside, my mate in Glasgow says there's a rumour doing the rounds up there that Mr 'McGuire' has been talking to Celtic regards a loan move?

That could only happen in January as it's classed as an international transfer.

 

[Bergen Blade]

That's valid but it's one game. Some do overreact once they've got a negative view of a player but the reason for my difference in stance between Collins and McEveley is outlined in post #47. McEveley for me, has been culpable for far too many goals and makes the same mistakes over and over again. Collins conversely costs us very few goals in my opinion.

How many of our 26 conceded goals have been McEveley's fault this season?

 

[BushBlade]

How many of our 26 conceded goals have been McEveley's fault this season?

Just the ones when he played.

 

[s35blade]

The problem is that due to injuries ,and lack of recruitment, Collins is assuming the position as our team's, solid, dependable and trusted CB. The foundation of our team a leader and warrior. The issue is Collins is simply not good enough to fulfil that role. He's an okay CB at this level but needs some quality alongside him such as Maguire. He seems to believe leadership equals barracking young Goalkeepers and others less experienced that you, and as a warrior? Actually I do think he puts himself about to be fair. However my main point is that he's not good enough to be this teams main CB so any criticism is necessary.

 

[BushBlade]

The problem is that due to injuries ,and lack of recruitment, Collins is assuming the position as our team's, solid, dependable and trusted CB. The foundation of our team a leader and warrior. The issue is Collins is simply not good enough to fulfil that role. He's an okay CB at this level but needs some quality alongside him such as Maguire. He seems to believe leadership equals barracking young Goalkeepers and others less experienced that you, and as a warrior? Actually I do think he puts himself about to be fair. However my main point is that he's not good enough to be this teams main CB so any criticism is necessary.

That's a fair point. He's not a dominant centre half, he's a supporting CH, like Cahill is to Terry or Killa was to Morgs. Ironically, it's usually the poorer of the two in terms of technique that is the dominant one, as Morgs was to Killa. It makes it difficult to find the right partner for him without having two immobile lumps at CH.

 

[madeinsheffield]

What's Killa doing these days?

 

[BushBlade]

What's Killa doing these days?

He was on the bench at Blackburn last time I looked, which was about a week ago. As was Willo.

 

[s35blade]

That's a fair point. He's not a dominant centre half, he's a supporting CH, like Cahill is to Terry or Killa was to Morgs. Ironically, it's usually the poorer of the two in terms of technique that is the dominant one, as Morgs was to Killa. It makes it difficult to find the right partner for him without having two immobile lumps at CH.

And here we have the problem as the only possible partner to him is a very mobile but technically gifted CB, and how many of them are hanging around League One?

 

[WorkingtonBlade]

Can't easily post the link but the immediate responses here remind me of the Backfire Effect at YANSS.

That applies to most threads on this forum (as with all other Internet forums)

It isn't a place to listen to others, and use the new information to challenge your own beliefs. It's a place to prove the other person wrong.

 

[BushBlade]

And here we have the problem as the only possible partner to him is a very mobile but technically gifted CB, and how many of them are hanging around League One?

Doesn't have to be that technically gifted IMHO but does need to be mobile and with the ability to lead and organise. Rocking horse shit.

 

[secretchief]

There seems to be some kind of slippage here between accusations of culpability for individual mistakes and players not actually being a good enough standard of ability to deliver the general quality of performance required for a promotion team.

Surely the point here is that it doesn't matter if JayMac makes a lot of mistakes or he doesn't make any. A team with a reliance on him isn't going to go up because even at this level there are too many opposition players that can give him a seriously rough ride.

But this is basically the case with all our central defenders too.

 

[William Henry Foulkes]

That applies to most threads on this forum (as with all other Internet forums)

It isn't a place to listen to others, and use the new information to challenge your own beliefs. It's a place to prove the other person wrong.

Agreed.

Something I'm really interested in.

 

[Woodwardfan]

I'm afraid it's often the characters who put themselves in there fighting the cause, sometimes without the natural ability but nevertheless blokes you'd have in the trenches alongside you and yet they are the ones who often attract the most criticism. Despite 100% effort and indeed despite showing respect to the fans and even coming to clap us on bad away days, they are the ones who become scapegoats. That's human nature I'm afraid.

The players who hide when the battle is hottest and don't offer themselves in those crucial moments when bottle is needed, well they just fade away into the background. Make less mistakes and draw less attention, that's their mantra.

 

[1danewhitehouse]

Did he play on a different pitch to everyone else?

Sorry, I'm in one of those moods.

Now now Bush, no need for that just because I outed your woman and child beating ways.....





I dunno to be honest. I took it that he was playing games of footy here there and everywhere for a number o junior teams and that some of them were on poor pitches. I didn’t get the impression that it was SUFC playing him too much, just that the lad wanted to play football at every opportunity so playing games wherever he could as a kid.


That was just from someone I know who’s kids play at something like under 11 level at ‘cliffe so they speak to people and hear bits.

 

[1danewhitehouse]

How many of our 26 conceded goals have been McEveley's fault this season?

Off the top of my head I can’t remember. The only one that sticks out as massively his fault is the 3rd goal for Bury. I know some tried to defend him on the grounds they thought it was a foul but for me, no self-respecting centre half would get done like that and I’ve not seen anything nearly as bad as that from Collins all season.


I seem to recall he was partially at fault for Colchester’s 2nd too but he wasn’t alone in that.


But there were also a fair few last season. Getting mugged by Forte at home to Oldham, giving away a daft penalty against Plymouth, unnecessarily conceding the free kick MK Dons scored from at the lane, the penalty against Spurs, one of the goals at Gillingham (2nd I think). John Brayford’s injury came about in an incident where he made a last ditch lunge to try to clear up another of McEveley’s messes. Obika went past him and Alcock as if they weren’t there in the playoffs for the 4th and 5th goals.


Over the course of a season and a bit, that is far too many goals to be largely responsible for.


When he plays at left back, he’s less likely to directly cost us goals as often but offers little going forward in that position and struggles against pace as Mark Marshall demonstrated at Valley Parade. He’s decent on the ball by centre half standards but can’t do the basic jobs of a centre half and is nothing special on the ball by full-back standards.


For me, the criticism directed at him is a lot more justified than that directed at Collins although I don’t agree with the personal abuse of any player. I just think he’s really poor and shouldn’t be in the team.

 

[Bergen Blade]

Off the top of my head I can’t remember. The only one that sticks out as massively his fault is the 3rd goal for Bury. I know some tried to defend him on the grounds they thought it was a foul but for me, no self-respecting centre half would get done like that and I’ve not seen anything nearly as bad as that from Collins all season.


I seem to recall he was partially at fault for Colchester’s 2nd too but he wasn’t alone in that.


But there were also a fair few last season. Getting mugged by Forte at home to Oldham, giving away a daft penalty against Plymouth, unnecessarily conceding the free kick MK Dons scored from at the lane, the penalty against Spurs, one of the goals at Gillingham (2nd I think). John Brayford’s injury came about in an incident where he made a last ditch lunge to try to clear up another of McEveley’s messes. Obika went past him and Alcock as if they weren’t there in the playoffs for the 4th and 5th goals.


Over the course of a season and a bit, that is far too many goals to be largely responsible for.


When he plays at left back, he’s less likely to directly cost us goals as often but offers little going forward in that position and struggles against pace as Mark Marshall demonstrated at Valley Parade. He’s decent on the ball by centre half standards but can’t do the basic jobs of a centre half and is nothing special on the ball by full-back standards.


For me, the criticism directed at him is a lot more justified than that directed at Collins although I don’t agree with the personal abuse of any player. I just think he’s really poor and shouldn’t be in the team.

I think it's understandable that people are losing belief and patience in players, but with a new manager, new season, every player must surely be given a clean slate and performances must be objectively assessed?

It's typical that McEveley's involvement in the Bury goal you mention is remembered, but nobody remembers Kieron Wallace being in a very similar situation at Rochdale's second (a slight shove when trying to clear). Does anybody remember what Coutts and Done did for that goal?

Personally I think there was a foul committed for both the Bury goals, and would categorise McEveley's involvements as unlucky, not something that I'd want him to work extra on in training etc. In terms of goals conceded this season we've had some problems with our organisation and our midfield have struggled to protect the back four better. Removing McEveley from the side hasn't immediately helped results (think we've done a bit better with him starting than not) which shows we still have defensive problems to address.

 

[1danewhitehouse]

I think it's understandable that people are losing belief and patience in players, but with a new manager, new season, every player must surely be given a clean slate and performances must be objectively assessed?

It's typical that McEveley's involvement in the Bury goal you mention is remembered, but nobody remembers Kieron Wallace being in a very similar situation at Rochdale's second (a slight shove when trying to clear). Does anybody remember what Coutts and Done did for that goal?

Personally I think there was a foul committed for both the Bury goals, and would categorise McEveley's involvements as unlucky, not something that I'd want him to work extra on in training etc. In terms of goals conceded this season we've had some problems with our organisation and our midfield have struggled to protect the back four better. Removing McEveley from the side hasn't immediately helped results (think we've done a bit better with him starting than not) which shows we still have defensive problems to address.

I think we'll have to agree to differ on the Bury goal. I agree with you on the first Bury goal though. I think the 3rd goal v Bury and 2nd goal v Rochdale are incomparable. McEveley had time to judge a long punt down field where as Wallace had to try to react to clear off the line after the ball spun up of Howard's hand. For me, slight infringement or not a defender has to have the presence of mind, strength and conviction to not get eased off the ball the way he did.

I kind of agree with the clean slate point but the mind doesn't eradicate all that has gone before and when you see him mugged the way he was by Clarke it automatically brings back memories of the ones involving Forte, Soldado and all the others I mentioned in the earlier post. It's very difficult to feel confident that we can deal with the simplest of punts down field when he's in the defence.

 

[William Henry Foulkes]

Re Kennavaro:

If this has happened it's a real shame - and a bit of a surprise bc measures were put in place a while ago to stop it.

Junior footballers are limited in the games they play bc of the effects the constant physiological stress can have on their developing bodies.

I think this was partly in response to what happened to Rob Jones at Liverpool. From memory he went to there from Crewe, ended up in the England team in his very early twenties, but had to stop playing. (Shin splints? - whatever they are.)

(I remember Osgood-Schlatters (sp) disease being prominent in these discussions - something about your bones and soft tissue growing at different rates that eventually put them in conflict as one becomes too long/short for the other?)

The problem was identified as too much football as a junior so strict limitations were placed on game time.

It's the same in junior cricket where bowlers are limited in the number of overs they can bowl, even if they're playing in an adult League game.

Really hope it's something else, and given that he played at Oldham and has been on the bench is maybe a sign of longer term recovery?

Might get a chance at Crewe.

 

[Grecian2000]

I'm afraid it's often the characters who put themselves in there fighting the cause, sometimes without the natural ability but nevertheless blokes you'd have in the trenches alongside you and yet they are the ones who often attract the most criticism. Despite 100% effort and indeed despite showing respect to the fans and even coming to clap us on bad away days, they are the ones who become scapegoats.

So players like Eddie Colquhoun, Paul Stancliffe, Tom Cowan, David Holdsworth, Colin Hill, Chris Wilder, Dane Whitehouse, Bradders and the other hundred or so I can't be arsed to mention. They share the characteristics but I don't remember them being "scapegoats" (I'll use your word even though it's not right). Why?

Fairly simple and told on many threads (usually weekly) when this shit emerges, but here we go again. They "earned" the right to have bad games by being better than average MOST weeks. The players that end up being hounded (there, that's a better word for you) end up like that because they, over a period of time, perform less well than their peers and are thus seen as the weaker links (worst players) in the team.
Players like Del Geary (who also belongs in the first list), Alan Quinn and Bobby Davison all started with obvious defects (having come from bitter rivals) but put any potential issues away early doors by actually playing well. I know it's radical, but doing this regularly really is a good way of winning fans over (even the vast majority with personality defects).

 

[Woodwardfan]

So players like Eddie Colquhoun, Paul Stancliffe, Tom Cowan, David Holdsworth, Colin Hill, Chris Wilder, Dane Whitehouse, Bradders and the other hundred or so I can't be arsed to mention. They share the characteristics but I don't remember them being "scapegoats" (I'll use your word even though it's not right). Why?

Fairly simple and told on many threads (usually weekly) when this shit emerges, but here we go again. They "earned" the right to have bad games by being better than average MOST weeks. The players that end up being hounded (there, that's a better word for you) end up like that because they, over a period of time, perform less well than their peers and are thus seen as the weaker links (worst players) in the team.
Players like Del Geary (who also belongs in the first list), Alan Quinn and Bobby Davison all started with obvious defects (having come from bitter rivals) but put any potential issues away early doors by actually playing well. I know it's radical, but doing this regularly really is a good way of winning fans over (even the vast majority with personality defects).

You are going back quite a while and I honestly think our fans were more patient and forgiving then anyway.

In more recent times I'd quote Stephen Quinn, Monty and Michael Doyle.

 

[Grecian2000]

In more recent times I'd quote Stephen Quinn, Monty and Michael Doyle.

Quinn went from Hero to Zero to Hero based on his appalling performances under Blackwell. He was well liked before (under Warnock) and toward the end (under Wilson). He was often abject in between and fell from grace.

Monty was awful, Doyle not much better (cockney walks aside).

 

[1danewhitehouse]

I think players who are limited technically but give 110% like Monty divide opinions between those that yearn most for slick football and those who appreciate players who play like they would given the opportunity.


Collins tries and puts himself about pretty well but not so much that it stands out like it did with the likes of Monty, Morgs, Geary, Whitehouse, Booker etc. It’ not enough to win over most of the fans. Doyle was in the same boat.


I don’t think McEveley has a bad attitude but lacks the aggression in his play to be thought of like the Morgans, Gearys and Monty’s of this world. Their tenacity/bravery/aggression stood out a mile and made up for technical shortcomings (in the eyes of some). McEveley often looks like a rabbit in the headlights and is too often outmuscled. He seems far too nice.

 

[Sean Thornton]

Quinn went from Hero to Zero to Hero based on his appalling performances under Blackwell. He was well liked before (under Warnock) and toward the end (under Wilson). He was often abject in between and fell from grace.

Monty was awful, Doyle not much better (cockney walks aside).

Spot on re Quinny.

 

[Sean Thornton]

Five pages and no consensus yet on Collins being shite?

 

[BushBlade]

You are going back quite a while and I honestly think our fans were more patient and forgiving then anyway.

In more recent times I'd quote Stephen Quinn, Monty and Michael Doyle.

Because they're, in old parlance, dogs. They run around after the ball. Work hard, make others look good.
That doesn't apply to centre halfs. If you want an example of an under appreciated CH, I'll give you Brian Gayle. Good organiser, strong, good tackler but prone to the odd massive error. But if he didn't make the occasional ricket he'd have played for a better club than us.

 

[BushBlade]

Five pages and no consensus yet on Collins being shite?

No, we need a discussion on how we define consensus.

 

[sitwell]

Doesn't have to be that technically gifted IMHO but does need to be mobile and with the ability to lead and organise. Rocking horse shit.

That's Collins without the Rocking horse bit

 

[1danewhitehouse]

a better club than us.

 

[William Henry Foulkes]

Can't easily post the link but the immediate responses here remind me of the Backfire Effect at YANSS.

The Backfire Effect

http://youarenotsosmart.com/2011/06/10/the-backfire-effect/