Chris Hughton pleased with our former best player

[grafikhaus]

Start of season two.. Sold Quinn, didn't go up

Start of season three.. Sold Macdonald, didn't go up

Start of season four... Sold Maguire, didn't go up.

Start of Season five... Sold Murphy. ...... ( fill in the blanks )

Sometime before start of season six...Sell Che Adams.

 

[BushBlade]

I appreciate you make some valid points Bush but just occasionally, given our track record, it’d be nice if we could try the other approach and see where that takes us. Our approach has led to 5 years in this horrible league.

Personally I don't think it's the main reason we're down here. That's why I'm less bothered about it. Its probably a contributing factor and it's not an ideal situation but if we're running at a loss each season and neither the Prince or KM are prepared to fund the loss in full, it's inevitable that we'll sell players. And if we don't get promoted it's inevitable players will want to leave, to further their careers.

I think there are three fundamental problems:

1. High wage bill - we don't appear to be getting value for money. Even if Bristol City's wage bill was higher than ours (which would be surprising given the small number of senior players they had) they finished with a lot more points than we did. We seem to have a lot of squad players who I suspect get paid more than a lot of L1's first team players.

2. Too many players past their best getting paid decent money because they used to be good.

3. Failure to replace players when we sell them, mainly due to points 1&2.

I think we are adopting the wrong strategy. Instead of picking up players on the way down for cheap fees, or free, and paying them big wages, we should be buying players who are on the way up, from smaller clubs who aren't being paid much where they are, will appreciate a modest increase and the chance to play in a big stadium in front of 20,000 for a club with great facilities and a realistic chance of promotion.

We seem to be trying to do that with the likes of Che, Done, and even the jocks, but then we go daft again and start spunking money on the likes of Brayford and Coutts.

All we need is a bit of balance and common sense and to stop this boom and bust.

 

[William Henry Foulkes]

I'm a night owl, poor sleep patterns etc, so bear with me while I do my best to address your comments.

You say there's no rationale for this selling policy. I presume it's based on financial survival, but apart from that I'm not the person to ask, you'll need to address it with the club, or at least those within the club you consider above reproach.

Like yourself, I've no idea about the characters of anyone employed by SUFC, so it's a trad facile to adopt a 'How dare you?' stance when all any of us can do is to draw conclusions based on.....well that's often the most irrational form of decision making there is. It's sometimes based on what we want someone to be, as you appear to do. You may well be correct, but unless you know any of these individuals well, or even at all, then to suggest that it (meaning the possibility of either withholding or denying the truth) couldn't possibly be so is a bit daft. I suspect Nigel Adkins is a decent guy, but the timescales surrounding Murphy's sale, and Adkins assertion that Murphy was going nowhere are too close to call for the likelihood of there not being some kind of overlap between both clubs. I'm happy to be wrong in at least considering such a contrived scenario, but I happen to think that's healthy, rather than state that it couldn't possibly be the case. That way lies the possibility of an abuse of trust. A healthy disregard for words uttered by the guardians of SUFC never harmed anyone. If they speak truthfully, all well and good, but if they speak with a forked tongue then it's best to at least anticipate this lesser talent. It saves a lot of indignant outrage and helps to focus on what might have occurred.

By not mentioning it, you appear to have swept aside the WBA comparison to one side. It's completely relevant, but I guess it doesn't figure in how you view this. A pity, as it shows that 'unhappy' players aren't always able to dictate the terms of their departure.

As for the abuse that someone like Phipps receives, that's awful and should never be condoned. I suspect that most of what goes on at United is done with the best of intentions. The trouble is, life isn't black and white, but it seems that to suggest otherwise doesn't meet with your approval. I can live with that, and whether we agree or not really doesn't matter.

Not sure about your life's experience William, but I've met many genuinely wealthy men. I mention this because you suggest that the commitment of those who run the club isn't in question. I think you may be right, but there again, based on decisions that are made regarding transfer policy, it feeds into itself as one good player follows another out of the club, and then this sets the scene where other players ask what this club is really determined to achieve? They may ask if United really does intend to hold onto it's best players, or should they consider their options and seek to achieve their ambitions elsewhere? These are just possibilities you understand, but just as many supporters feel a huge sense of deflation because of this apparently consistent transfer policy, so players of ambition may challenge whatever orthodoxies they come up against within the club. These men of wealth will realise that investing in a club, one that proclaims it's goal is to arrive in the Premiership, should also know that to invest £20million in today's climate is to be almost on a par with dipping your toe in the water. McCabe has spent far more than this, sometimes unwisely, but United have never been one of the game's big spenders, so what I assume we're all hoping for is a counter-revolution that tells everyone that United has some very savvy people on board who realise what will be needed to reach the promised land. Given that the figure of £20million is spread over transfers and general overheads, I reckon that this figure, if not already spent, won't be long in arriving. If that's the case, I guess we can look forward to one sale quickly followed by another, then another etc.

As it's late I'm going to leave this. I fear you and I are going around in ever decreasing circles, the type of thing that happens where posts are concerned, but would perhaps be best suited to a one to one chat. At least in that context much of this could be discussed in a less oppositional fashion.

Let's just say, being more charitable than Live Aid, that I don't think this always contains 100% accurate representations of my views.

 

[alcoblade]

Let's just say, being more charitable than Live Aid, that I don't think this always contains 100% accurate representations of my views.

Is that a quick way of saying that you haven't got a spare month the read his post?

UTB

 

[William Henry Foulkes]

None of us know the motivations of those in charge. Whether the sale of a player is in the best interests of the club is subjective and difficult to know without the benefit of hindsight. But there can be little disputing that we sell these players every season (whilst making noises publicly that we won’t) and in recent times, we fail every season. I think it’s reasonable for fans to be disappointed to see the pattern being repeated as it leads to a belief that the result will be the same.

For me a sale or no sale can only be judged on the information available at the time.

Murphy may end up Player of the Season at Brighton, this rate apparently, but at the time £1.7m after a transfer request seemed like a good deal.for all concerned.

You could argue that international.appearances should bump the fee maybe...

I think it's a vicious circle. We sell good players so we don't get promoted so players want to leave etc.

I think with the Beard and Billy we do have Local Heroes heading in the other direction and I'd say credit is due for that.

 

[William Henry Foulkes]

Is that a quick way of saying that you haven't got a spare month the read his post?

UTB

I've read it. A response, though, is beyond my limited powers.

 

[itsinyerblood]

Let's just say, being more charitable than Live Aid, that I don't think this always contains 100% accurate representations of my views.

Without knowing what you regard as less than representative (your choice to not make clear how I've misrepresented you, but that's not been my intent) I've replied without knowingly miscalculating, altering, or avoiding your comments. That's about as much as anyone can do. You obviously feel otherwise, choosing instead not to identify these representations you refer to as less than 100% accurate.

 

[Revolution]

Constructive criticism is fine, and in fact benefits the club.

I don't see how simply stating they sell players against the best interests of the club and then offering no rationale for this pathology does.

itsinyerblood has explained at length why he thinks the repeated sales of our best players is a bad idea. He has offered alternatives. He's not the only one. I've done it myself and so have other posters.

To my mind, all of this is constructive criticism.

And I have evidence that the current policy is against the best interests of the club. The evidence is five consecutive seasons in this division whilst the vast majority of the players that we have sold in this way are plying their trade at a higher level.

 

[William Henry Foulkes]

Without knowing what you regard as less than representative (your choice to not make clear how I've misrepresented you, but that's not been my intent) I've replied without knowingly miscalculating, altering, or avoiding your comments. That's about as much as anyone can do. You obviously feel otherwise, choosing instead not to identify these representations you refer to as less than 100% accurate.

Ever decreasing circles.

I think there's some truth in the benefits of a less oppositional arena as well.

 

[sheffielder]

He's shite apparently, move on

 

[Barney]

Without knowing what you regard as less than representative (your choice to not make clear how I've misrepresented you, but that's not been my intent) I've replied without knowingly miscalculating, altering, or avoiding your comments. That's about as much as anyone can do. You obviously feel otherwise, choosing instead not to identify these representations you refer to as less than 100% accurate.

IIYB, it's really not worth trying to justify your views. Some people will defend the club regardless and no amount of time or effort will change that unfortunately. I know my views exactly, I express them more often than not only once then leave it in the knowledge my opinion has been expressed. It is a stance I would recommend.

 

[itsinyerblood]

Ever decreasing circles.

I think there's some truth in the benefits of a less oppositional arena as well.

A pity, not because you choose not to reserve your right not to allow me the right to comment on something you say I've written but that you refuse to mention, but because of the gentle arrogance of this approach.

I see another poster referred to the fact that I had provided the information you sought but chose not to acknowledge, again, a real pity you chose to go down this path.

 

[itsinyerblood]

IIYB, it's really not worth trying to justify your views. Some people will defend the club regardless and no amount of time or effort will change that unfortunately. I know my views exactly, I express them more often than not only once then leave it in the knowledge my opinion has been expressed. It is a stance I would recommend.

Although I assume that your advice is benignly intended, sometimes, dependent on what's been written, there's value in saying that you either disagree or are at opposite ends of a particular pole. I don't see anything wrong with this, but your words have merit of course, probably a case of, there is no right and wrong about certain things, they're just opposing views.

 

[William Henry Foulkes]

A pity, not because you choose not to reserve your right not to allow me the right to comment on something you say I've written but that you refuse to mention, but because of the gentle arrogance of this approach.

I see another poster referred to the fact that I had provided the information you sought but chose not to acknowledge, again, a real pity you chose to go down this path.

Rather than just leaving a thread dangling in the air I was just stating that I didn't wholeheatedly concur with everything that had been said and leaving it at that.

I don't see the benefit of adding any detail as it seems it'd just deteriorate further into I said, You said. I thought this was the point of your remark about Ever decreasing circles, and that I was agreeing with you.

Basically I'm saying I'm choosing to agree to disagree.

Whether that's gently arrogant, violently hostile, or other I really am going to leave it at that.

 

[itsinyerblood]

Rather than just leaving a thread dangling in the air I was just stating that I didn't wholeheatedly concur with everything that had been said and leaving it at that.

I don't see the benefit of adding any detail as it seems it'd just deteriorate further into I said, You said. I thought this was the point of your remark about Ever decreasing circles, and that I was agreeing with you.

Basically I'm saying I'm choosing to agree to disagree.

Whether that's gently arrogant, violently hostile, or other I really am going to leave it at that.

Ah.....just goes to show how posts are sometimes not the most appropriate form to exchange views, so apologies for the arrogant comment, poor form on my behalf.

 

[1danewhitehouse]

"but if we're running at a loss each season and neither the Prince or KM are prepared to fund the loss in full, it's inevitable that we'll sell players."

But that’s pretty much the antithesis of what we were told when the Prince came on board with a specific comment about no longer needing to sell our best young players.


"And if we don't get promoted it's inevitable players will want to leave, to further their careers. "

Agreed. And that’s the one reasonable argument to defend the sales IMO. I’m just reiterating the point that we do have some say and it would be nice to see us take a firm stance now and again. It might work with that player- it might not. But what it would do is send a message that we’re not a soft touch. That message would go to the potential buying clubs, the fans, wantaway players and potential incoming players wondering about our level of ambition. I appreciate the financial risk but if our footing is as strong as the powers that be make out, it’s be nice to see.

Agree with almost all you say about the recruitment. Except I won’t criticise the club over the Brayford signing. A big problem at this level is that we can’t attract proven quality at the peak of their powers so as you say are limited to signing players in decline or “up and comers”. Brayford’s relationship with Clough and the club made him an exception to that rule and I thought it was worth exploiting. It didn’t pay off last season and his injury has been a blow but that’s with the benefit of hindsight.

I agree though that we need to look for more like Che and Done. I was banging the drum last season for Conor Goldson but he ended up at Brighton this season. Byrne, Dack etc would also fit that bill. As would GInnelly, Pierre, Mawson etc. I’m sure there are more for those who are paid to look for these players. I think a smattering of old heads is handy and won’t knock the Sharp/Sammon signings but it would have been nice if instead of signing Woolford for example we had taken a dip on a youngster from lower than us who had potential to improve. They don’t always pay dividends though. McGhaey, Wallace, Cuvelier, Scougall etc all looked like good signings of that ilk but for one reason or another, we’ve not seen much to suggest any will become first team regulars any time soon.

.

 

[1danewhitehouse]

"I think it's a vicious circle. We sell good players so we don't get promoted so players want to leave etc."

I agree. It is. I just think we have to try to do more to break the cycle. Hold those best players to their contracts and improve the team one season. That might give us a good chance of breaking the cycle by getting promotion in my opinion. By always going down the same path with player sales, we put ourselves in a situation that the recruitment has to be very good and that is extremely difficult to achieve for a League 1 club as we can't generally attract proven quality so we are looking at Championship reserves or taking a punt on the young up and coming players from those clubs worse off than us. Sometimes it works (Adams, Done etc), sometimes it doesn't (Brandy, Taylor, Westlake, Miller and looking fairly likely that will apply to Cuveler, Scougall, McGahey, K. Wallace etc).

"I think with the Beard and Billy we do have Local Heroes heading in the other direction and I'd say credit is due for that"

Absolutely agree- I’m not for a moment saying everything the club does is bad. Credit where it’s due. I would also add the appointment of Adkins to that list.