Baxter and Doyle in central midfield

[Bergen Blade]

Is there enough closing down and forward movement when Baxter and Doyle occupy two thirds of our central midfield in a lone striker system?

Against Tottenham I thought they struggled to cover enough ground and it was a major reason why Tottenham dominated so much for the first hour. Was it the same today?

Doyle is at his best when he's sweeping up in front of the defence. Of late, Baxter has been dropping deep, behind Doyle, to playmake from the same position, though Doyle isn't able to make enough forward contribution to compensate for Baxter dropping deep. Therefore we're not getting enough players into good attacking positions.

Defensively, Scougall's energetic chasing is in vain if the opposition can just play it across to Baxter's zone where they get space to run into and plenty of time on the ball.

I agree this midfield trio worked well in the league home match vs Preston, but I think it could be a costly mistake if we don't realise it's limitations.

 

[moDtheGod]

Does Baxter fit into ANY system, or is he a luxury player that you have to build a team around?

 

[madeinsheffield]

Not for me, two players with not enough movement leaving gaps for opposition to exploit

 

[Going up]

Think we will see Coutts, Reed and Scougs more.

 

[SwissBlade]

Think you're right in some games Bergen Blade they seem to struggle, personally I'd like to see us building on Baxter playing that deeper role.

I think there's still a place for Doyle, but struggled to see them providing enough when they're both in the side

Against physical sides like Preston it doesn't work. Mind you neither did McNulty up top

 

[AnonymousBlade1995]

coutts and doyle will be the new paring failing that coutts and whoever can defend the best

 

[Blade56]

Think you're right in some games Bergen Blade they seem to struggle, personally I'd like to see us building on Baxter playing that deeper role.

I think there's still a place for Doyle, but struggled to see them providing enough when they're both in the side

Against physical sides like Preston it doesn't work. Mind you neither did McNulty up top

Felt sorry for McNutty up there all alone with 2/3 big defenders around him and no movement off the ball to support him or give him options.

 

[SwissBlade]

Felt sorry for McNutty up there all alone with 2/3 big defenders around him and no movement off the ball to support him or give him options.

Really dont think he help himself tonight. Didn't really put himself about up there and looked to sit on the last man all the time instead of using some intelligence and dropping out ten yards to receive the ball or at least pull a man out wide etc.

Ironically all the stuff Higdon did away at PNE

 

[Fiery Blade]

I felt McNulty was really poor tonight - did not offer anything
As regards movement little or none from anyone tonight - Throw ins are an embarrassment as are free kicks - how many times do we give away possession when trying to take quick free kicks ???

 

[JohnDenver]

Is there enough closing down and forward movement when Baxter and Doyle occupy two thirds of our central midfield in a lone striker system?

Against Tottenham I thought they struggled to cover enough ground and it was a major reason why Tottenham dominated so much for the first hour. Was it the same today?

Doyle is at his best when he's sweeping up in front of the defence. Of late, Baxter has been dropping deep, behind Doyle, to playmake from the same position, though Doyle isn't able to make enough forward contribution to compensate for Baxter dropping deep. Therefore we're not getting enough players into good attacking positions.

Defensively, Scougall's energetic chasing is in vain if the opposition can just play it across to Baxter's zone where they get space to run into and plenty of time on the ball.

I agree this midfield trio worked well in the league home match vs Preston, but I think it could be a costly mistake if we don't realise it's limitations.

Is there enough movement with Baxter and Doyle? Absolutely not.

Was it the same as Spurs? Yes. Just imagine if we'd had Higgo up front too.... These three are essentially incompatible.

Scougall does a lot of chasing but there's little point doing it alone. As much as I admire Baxter's quality, I want him on the bench.

 

[yuley82]

Think there will be a lot of changes in the side now after tonight. Get the new lads in and let's push on in the league from now until the play off final.

 

[Woodwardfan]

I think it's Fulwood who has said more than once that we can't play Scougs and Baxter in the same team and it's true if they are both picked in midfield.

Some will say drop Scougs and there is such a thread running simultaneously with this one saying just that. Some will say drop Baxter and the odd few these days will say drop Doyle.

After all the signings and now we are out of both cups I think all three will be hard pressed to get starts and all these old arguments are almost yesterday's debates. Doyle never saw himself here next season and betrayed his own thoughts in an interview some weeks ago. There has to be a lead time to that change and Coutts will presumably take the role forward, if he is fit enough.

I think Scougall has had plenty of chances to establish himself and is our new "nearly man", nearly but never quite strong enough, as hard as he tries.

Baxter will always be an enigma. Personally I don't think he is played in his best position for a series of games, but he has failed to convert his undoubted ability and become one of our "main men", far from it, he is inconsistent. There is a chance he'll play up front with Done, who knows? I certainly think the No.10 role is his best but If we don't play a "No. 10" then Baxter will spend time on the bench.

We have so many midfielders and the time seems right for a changing of the guard. I hope and expect we now go 4-4-2 and all three above will struggle to prosper in that formation and the manager has loads of other players in midfield.

 

[Grappler]

We lack height in the middle (said the same on the "Scougall" thread), which james Wallace can hopefully fill at some point,, or maybe Coutts (or both). I agree that Baxter is an enigma, he obviously has talent and skill, but has gone off the boil, He is better playing as an attacking midfielde, behind the strikers.

 

[longinthe toothblade]

We lack height in the middle (said the same on the "Scougall" thread), which james Wallace can hopefully fill at some point,, or maybe Coutts (or both). I agree that Baxter is an enigma, he obviously has talent and skill, but has gone off the boil, He is better playing as an attacking midfielde, behind the strikers.

What strikers???

 

[Grappler]

What strikers???

Well McNulty , Higdon or Done I guess, with young Che Adams as well

 

[Wards]

Have to admit I prefer Baxter in that deeper role, especially at home when we need to be a bit more patient with the ball. I wouldn't have them together.

 

[bramptonblade]

For me Doyle is well past his sell by date! Clough had the nuts to shut Collins out and he should now do the same with Doyle, a truly awful player!

 

[Bart the Blade]

I felt McNulty was really poor tonight - did not offer anything
As regards movement little or none from anyone tonight - Throw ins are an embarrassment as are free kicks - how many times do we give away possession when trying to take quick free kicks ???

There were some awful passing play last night, one of the worst games i have witnessed this season. They weren't up for it, McNulty along with McEveley I thought were especially poor. McNulty has got a shit first touch, as soon as he received the ball their defence was on him as he was too slow to run on with it.
McEveley bar his couple of runs that came to nothing short of the corner flag, left me scratching my head at times.

 

[Rossb123]

Baxter was by far our most creative player last night, without him in the team I doubt we would have created anything all game. If there is a lack of movement or pace having Baxter and Doyle together then we have to replace Doyle. Scougall can run all day but cant pass a ball 10 yards, Doyle can run all day but again cant pass and his timing of tackles is getting worse.

Its all well and good having a midfield that can run around all day but we have to create, listening to Clough last night it sounds like Done likes to play on the last man, I can see him and Baxter linking up really well with Baxter's through balls.

 

[Flatulent_Bob]

On the Baxter thing, can someone remember the last time he really performed and had a MOTM performance?

Just wondering if I've got a short memory and I'm being too hard on him, but I feel like the team are carrying him this season.

 

[dronny_blade]

With disappointing performances like last and with all the midfielders/wide men this sort of thread will be a constant topic of conversation but now we are out of the cups my thoughts currently are that Murphy/Adams out wide, in the middle, Coutts, Reed, Baxter. However when (*cough) fit Wallace to replace Baxter.
Can't comment on the new lad Holt yet but hope for good things, I like Cuveiler and put him ahead of Scougs. Doyle's omission is the fact that yes we need a defensively minded man in there but Reed/Coutts and even Baxter can do that job but have far more creativity. JCR's omission due to the fact that I've not yet seen a productive cross (possibly due to lack of men in the box?) and Flynns omission is that he struggled on the wing earlier this season (ok at right back though).
I bet though you could take 100 views on the midfield and get 100 different permutations.

 

[Cyprus Blade]

I couldn't make the game last night but for me Doyle is deteriorating and the rest of the midfield are having to compensate as he drops deeper and deeper to give himself time to make those negative or woeful passes of his.In possession he makes some of our defenders look like Pele. Doyle's strength was his tackling but even that is going from him as his tackles get increasingly desperate due to his declining pace. At the moment our midfield is disorganised, uncohesive, lacking height, strength and imagination and it looks like costing us this season.

Scougall and Baxter in midfield for me doesn't work - neither has kicked on from last season and in several ways have gone backwards (Scougall runs around like a headless chicken and has been awful in possession and couldn't hit a barn door this season, Baxter looks lost,out of position and lacking energy, defensively is average to poor but he is still the most creative of the midfielders though it is hard to make a killer pass if there is no-one in front to pass to). For me the standout midfielder this season has been Reed which says something with the plethora of midfielders we have acquired.

One thing that should be sorted out in the training field for me is set pieces - both for and against us. When we have a throw in or corner we might as well just give it to the opposition for all the good it does us. We do lack height so it isn't just the ball over the top that hurts us - we are too easily dominated in the air all over the park in my opinion. We now need an exemplary run in the league - a couple of defeats could see us looking to next season in which case I would junk Doyle because he should be gone by the end of the season.

 

[Fiery Blade]

Considering our vast options we have in midfield we still get overun by most teams in this division.

Last night our passing was abysmal and we never seemed to get anywhere ! In last nights mode every period of play in midfield seemed to go backwards - last night I thought Flynn, Scougall, Baxter and McNulty woeful - it didn't improve much when Reed came on !

I have written James Wallace off - with his track record over the past two seasons he will be lucky to play more than 15 games a season limping off most of those, Scougall appears to run about a lot but does little with the ball, Doyle is very limited and Baxter is an enigma - appears to have talent by the bucketful but very rarely uses it !
Hoping for better things with Brayford, Coutts, Adams, Done, Murphy in harness
Surely, Basham, McEverley, Harris must improve on last nights offering !
Was I the only supporter at the Lane last night that felt cheated - Yes Preston played well but we were dire !
A prize of a tie against Man Ure at home yet most of the players couldn't be arsed ! - It makes a mockery of previous 'cup exploits' !!

 

[Rodley]

Scougs is a good player for me, still young and has loads of potential. His work rate is absolutely outstanding. I'd look at Doyle / Coutts, Scougs and Reid as our midfield three and settle on that.

Doyle and Baxter lack the mobility to work in the same 3, as Bergen correctly pointed out.

 

[JasonEllis]

I would personally not play Baxter unless it is in the No.10 / "off the frontman" role. I cannot see him as a deep lying midfielder.

 

[Bergen Blade]

I'm not great at remembering these details, but I think these are the games where Baxter and Doyle have formed two of the three players in our central midfield:

• Notts County H 1-1
• Fleetwood A 1-1
• Walsall H 1-1
• Preston H (league) 2-1
• MK Dons A 0-1
• Tottenham H (first 60 mins) 2-3 (0-2 when we put on Reed for Doyle)
• Preston H (FAC) 1-3

The Preston home game in the league is the odd result out in my opinion, it worked well then. Baxter was playmaking well from deep, and Doyle was in good form, winning a lot of tackles higher up. Apart from that I think we've lacked mobility.


In comparison, from the Scougall thread:

I think the mobility of the two players flanking the holding midfielder is key for the team's balance. "Harriers" is a decent term, as the role is very demanding fitness-wise, but they have to contribute offensively as well, not least off the ball, getting into the box. As Kempy said Coady did well last season and has been missed. This season I think Reed, Cuvelier and Scougall fits the requirement, and our recent performances with these combinations are decent:

• Southampton 1-0 (Doyle, flanked by Cuvelier and Reed)
• Port Vale 1-2 (Doyle, flanked by Reed and Cuvelier) We were bullied, but played ok and ought to have lead first half. Cuvelier went off at h/t.
• QPR 3-0 (Doyle, flanked by Reed and Scougall)
• Tottenham 0-1 (Doyle, flanked by Reed and Scougall)
• Tottenham 2-3 last 30 mins (Baxter, flanked by Reed and Scougall) (suddenly started creating and scored twice)
• Swindon 2-0 last 30 mins (Coutts, flanked by Reed and Scougall) (played well, after struggling a bit first half)

When has these role combinations seen us fail?

 

[Fulwood Blade]

re

I think it's Fulwood who has said more than once that we can't play Scougs and Baxter in the same team and it's true if they are both picked in midfield.

Some will say drop Scougs and there is such a thread running simultaneously with this one saying just that. Some will say drop Baxter and the odd few these days will say drop Doyle.

After all the signings and now we are out of both cups I think all three will be hard pressed to get starts and all these old arguments are almost yesterday's debates. Doyle never saw himself here next season and betrayed his own thoughts in an interview some weeks ago. There has to be a lead time to that change and Coutts will presumably take the role forward, if he is fit enough.

I think Scougall has had plenty of chances to establish himself and is our new "nearly man", nearly but never quite strong enough, as hard as he tries.

Baxter will always be an enigma. Personally I don't think he is played in his best position for a series of games, but he has failed to convert his undoubted ability and become one of our "main men", far from it, he is inconsistent. There is a chance he'll play up front with Done, who knows? I certainly think the No.10 role is his best but If we don't play a "No. 10" then Baxter will spend time on the bench.

We have so many midfielders and the time seems right for a changing of the guard. I hope and expect we now go 4-4-2 and all three above will struggle to prosper in that formation and the manager has loads of other players in midfield.

It is indeed me (and sitters too) that can't see the Baxter and Scougal combination working.

It works against Prem teams in the cup as we sit very very deep and hit teams on the break, but where we have to push on and take the game to the opposition, it doesn't seem to work.
The Scoogs thing is beginning to piss me off now - scored 1, assisted 0 is not good enough. As for Baxter, why is the jury still out with such a talented player. I think we have to try something different, and that means possibly leaving Doyle out also.

We now have that many players, NC may never know his best team. Got a feeling Che Adams might play on Saturday which begs the question what to do with Murphy.

The lack of energy, effort and commitment was shocking last night v Preston and was a massive disapontment - time for the management to earn their corn. It is inconceivable that we lose to Gillingham - the knives will be out if we don't see some commitment to the promotion charge from now on. There is no cup " good will" to fall back on.

UTB

 

[super_pig]

Does Baxter fit into ANY system, or is he a luxury player that you have to build a team around?

agree.. there was a kid at our school who was easily the best player but he was bone idle and didn't seem to fit in the team wherever he played.. we always lost when he played but he always got picked 'cos he 'was the best player'
saying that. .we seem to do a lot to accomodate doyle as well. ok i don't like him as a player but he doesn't have the legs for the position.. sorry mate

 

[Woodwardfan]

re

It is indeed me (and sitters too) that can't see the Baxter and Scougal combination working.

It works against Prem teams in the cup as we sit very very deep and hit teams on the break, but where we have to push on and take the game to the opposition, it doesn't seem to work.
The Scoogs thing is beginning to piss me off now - scored 1, assisted 0 is not good enough. As for Baxter, why is the jury still out with such a talented player. I think we have to try something different, and that means possibly leaving Doyle out also.

We now have that many players, NC may never know his best team. Got a feeling Che Adams might play on Saturday which begs the question what to do with Murphy.

The lack of energy, effort and commitment was shocking last night v Preston and was a massive disapontment - time for the management to earn their corn. It is inconceivable that we lose to Gillingham - the knives will be out if we don't see some commitment to the promotion charge from now on. There is no cup " good will" to fall back on.

UTB

I sense your "slack" is tightening at last Fulwood.

 

[Woodwardfan]

I'm not great at remembering these details, but I think these are the games where Baxter and Doyle have formed two of the three players in our central midfield:

• Notts County H 1-1
• Fleetwood A 1-1
• Walsall H 1-1
• Preston H (league) 2-1
• MK Dons A 0-1
• Tottenham H (first 60 mins) 2-3 (0-2 when we put on Reed for Doyle)
• Preston H (FAC) 1-3

The Preston home game in the league is the odd result out in my opinion, it worked well then. Baxter was playmaking well from deep, and Doyle was in good form, winning a lot of tackles higher up. Apart from that I think we've lacked mobility.


In comparison, from the Scougall thread:

Bergen, let's face it you simply do not like Baxter and you love Scougall.

Goals and assists is another measure. Playing in one's ideal position, indeed the best position on the field, should produce more than 1 measly goal and no assists. If Baxter had been given that position for game after game believe me he would have managed more key contributions, it would not take a lot I know, but Scougall is playing exactly where Baxter would love to play.