Baxter and Doyle in central midfield

[Toronto Blade fan]

My Rant:

I haven't enjoyed Baxter's game in a long time, he doesn't move well, he's always passing the ball back to the defence rather then playing it forward, and he never tries to get open for his team-mates. We need to sit his ass on the bench. Hoping Coutts or Reid can play this role.

Doyle is another one I have not been impressed with. He's absolutely rubbish on the attack side (don't think I've seen a shot of his come within 20 yards of the goal). And on defence he's slow and gives up free kicks in really bad locations. Would love to see Basham play that defensive midfielder role.

and finally, McEveley .... I think the game is just a tad bit too fast for him. 3 penalties in 4 games....no thanks, sit your ass on the bench.

Go Blades!!

 

[Bergen Blade]

Bergen, let's face it you simply do not like Baxter and you love Scougall.

Goals and assists is another measure. Playing in one's ideal position, indeed the best position on the field, should produce more than 1 measly goal and no assists. If Baxter had been given that position for game after game believe me he would have managed more key contributions, it would not take a lot I know, but Scougall is playing exactly where Baxter would love to play.

Individual players mean nothing to me, compared to achieving the right balance in our line ups.

Within the formation we play normally, recent performances, as mentioned, show that we've done better with fitter players in the positions flanking our holding midfielders. There's a hint of my main point in the thread title, and it is not necessarily that Baxter can't figure in the team. But when he and Michael Doyle play together in a 4-5-1 formation, we have too little offensive and defensive mobility, and it is costing us points.

I thought Baxter, our goal conceded apart, did excellent as a holding midfielder in the last 30 minutes vs Spurs. For now I think we should let him fight with Doyle and possibly Coutts for that role.

 

[Woodwardfan]

Individual players mean nothing to me, compared to achieving the right balance in our line ups.

Within the formation we play normally, recent performances, as mentioned, show that we've done better with fitter players in the positions flanking our holding midfielders. There's a hint of my main point in the thread title, and it is not necessarily that Baxter can't figure in the team. But when he and Michael Doyle play together in a 4-5-1 formation, we have too little offensive and defensive mobility, and it is costing us points.

I thought Baxter, our goal conceded apart, did excellent as a holding midfielder in the last 30 minutes vs Spurs. For now I think we should let him fight with Doyle and possibly Coutts for that role.

and Scougall ?

 

[Bergen Blade]

and Scougall ?

The team has been well balanced, our performances have been good and results decent when he's been one of the two advanced midfielders, and the other has been Reed. I think Cuvelier is also capable of being effective in this role. Coutts and Holt may be options as well, but I've not seen them enough.

 

[Fulwood Blade]

I sense your "slack" is tightening at last Fulwood.

The manger will have my full support till the end of the season, when it's time to assess the whole season. There is little reason to change - Clough needs time to sort it out. That doesn't mean I can't get cross with games/performances - last night was a disgrace and considering (as NC said) they had nearly all had a rest, that type of performance, from professional footballers was horrendous. I expect and should see every game at least a willingness to give 100% effort and commitment to the SUFC cause. We didn't get it, and we were out run, out fought, out played and out muscled by a Preston team who actually stopped being thugs like a few weeks back. They thoroughly deserved to win the game.

The knives will be out from some if we don't beat Gillingham on Saturday, but not from me.

Clough is under pressure now and it will show him to be a good manager or perhaps not - we will see.

UTB

 

[Jonboy60]

Individual players mean nothing to me, compared to achieving the right balance in our line ups.

Within the formation we play normally, recent performances, as mentioned, show that we've done better with fitter players in the positions flanking our holding midfielders. There's a hint of my main point in the thread title, and it is not necessarily that Baxter can't figure in the team. But when he and Michael Doyle play together in a 4-5-1 formation, we have too little offensive and defensive mobility, and it is costing us points.

I thought Baxter, our goal conceded apart, did excellent as a holding midfielder in the last 30 minutes vs Spurs. For now I think we should let him fight with Doyle and possibly Coutts for that role.

Ain't that the problem though Bergen, we know that clough will change the midfield around depending on the opposition, but he changes it too often when it's really not needed. It's not a settled side for most part, pick your best team keep the nucleus and just tweek it when needed. IMO.

 

[The Bohemian]

Is there enough closing down and forward movement when Baxter and Doyle occupy two thirds of our central midfield in a lone striker system?

Against Tottenham I thought they struggled to cover enough ground and it was a major reason why Tottenham dominated so much for the first hour. Was it the same today?

Doyle is at his best when he's sweeping up in front of the defence. Of late, Baxter has been dropping deep, behind Doyle, to playmake from the same position, though Doyle isn't able to make enough forward contribution to compensate for Baxter dropping deep. Therefore we're not getting enough players into good attacking positions.

Defensively, Scougall's energetic chasing is in vain if the opposition can just play it across to Baxter's zone where they get space to run into and plenty of time on the ball.

I agree this midfield trio worked well in the league home match vs Preston, but I think it could be a costly mistake if we don't realise it's limitations.

You rightly point out how effective Doyle and Baxter were, deployed similarly, against the same team just a matter of weeks ago. The only difference in the team that started v Preston on 10 January was Kennedy instead of Basham. Doyle was immense! He earned his S2 top rating, and helped Baxter put in one of his best performances of the season. Last night both were off the pace: Doyle looked pedestrian and Baxter wasteful in possession.

My Baxter conclusion is, he can only start regularly if Cloughie uses him as a playmaker; he has the vision and technique to pick a killer pass but needs the extra time and space he gets when playing deeper. He's been ineffective in the No 10 role this season.

The consistently under-appreciated Doyle has been one of our more consistent performers this season, despite his limitations. That said, his place is now under threat now from Coutts, who does look more mobile and should offer more offensively.

 

[Woodwardfan]

The manger will have my full support till the end of the season, when it's time to assess the whole season. There is little reason to change - Clough needs time to sort it out. That doesn't mean I can't get cross with games/performances - last night was a disgrace and considering (as NC said) they had nearly all had a rest, that type of performance, from professional footballers was horrendous. I expect and should see every game at least a willingness to give 100% effort and commitment to the SUFC cause. We didn't get it, and we were out run, out fought, out played and out muscled by a Preston team who actually stopped being thugs like a few weeks back. They thoroughly deserved to win the game.

The knives will be out from some if we don't beat Gillingham on Saturday, but not from me.

Clough is under pressure now and it will show him to be a good manager or perhaps not - we will see.

UTB

And if we don't get promoted at the end of the season?

 

[Woodwardfan]

Ain't that the problem though Bergen, we know that clough will change the midfield around depending on the opposition, but he changes it too often when it's really not needed. It's not a settled side for most part, pick your best team keep the nucleus and just tweek it when needed. IMO.

Too much respect for the opposititon, imagine that multiplied in the Championship. Regardless of who we play and when, Scougall plays. Why? Because Clough signed him maybe. We are not performing in the league. The finer points of Scougall's game are ignored by League 1 players, frankly they don't even notice them.

 

[Woodwardfan]

The team has been well balanced, our performances have been good and results decent when he's been one of the two advanced midfielders, and the other has been Reed. I think Cuvelier is also capable of being effective in this role. Coutts and Holt may be options as well, but I've not seen them enough.

Bergen. You are confusing the league with the cup. Ignore the cup and focus on the main event, the league.

Picture the normal home game when the opposition have dug in. What does Scougall add? Never mind all that defending stuff from the front. We need creativity and goals.

What does Scougall add on those days when the furthest thing from the minds of the opposition is scoring a goal? What does our "advanced midfield player" do towards the cause? Scougs may well be "mobile" and "better in his defensive role" but what does he add in terms of goals and assists?

 

[Bergen Blade]

You rightly point out how effective Doyle and Baxter were, deployed similarly, against the same team just a matter of weeks ago. The only difference in the team that started v Preston on 10 January was Kennedy instead of Basham. Doyle was immense! He earned his S2 top rating, and helped Baxter put in one of his best performances of the season. Last night both were off the pace: Doyle looked pedestrian and Baxter wasteful in possession.

Preston changed things around from that last league meeting though, changing their formation and making quite a few tweaks. They had two left backs which stopped our right hand side. Their right winger Humphrey is good at tracking back, and seemed determined to help his right back out with Murphy. Gallagher was deeper, meaning they were stronger in central midfield, matching us in terms of numbers. I think they were a lot more prepared and offered something quite different, so although our plan was similar it wasn't nearly as effective.

 

[Bergen Blade]

Bergen. You are confusing the league with the cup. Ignore the cup and focus on the main event, the league.

Picture the normal home game when the opposition have dug in. What does Scougall add? Never mind all that defending stuff from the front. We need creativity and goals.

What does Scougall add on those days when the furthest thing from the minds of the opposition is scoring a goal? What does our "advanced midfield player" do towards the cause? Scougs may well be "mobile" and "better in his defensive role" but what does he add in terms of goals and assists?

Scougall, when played in a well balanced team and in good form, can give us energy, urgency, forward movement on and off the ball, regularly an extra body in the box, help us win the ball in good areas to make our breaks more effective. That's what he did last season, cup and league, and in the mentioned games, and I think he'll improve further if we get our tactics right.

 

[flash-blade]

Watch Baxter when we don't have the ball, he's a liability. Lazy and won't pick anyone up, its like he's saying I'm too good to mark someone. He was our main problem v Spurs first half, I'd get rid, yes he's technically very good but he hasn't got the desire to make a top player hence the stone or so he carts around. Not a big fan of Doyles but I think he's been quite good this season apart from the last 3 or 4 games when he's gone back to the Doyle we know. His last season mi thinks.

 

[Cyprus Blade]

Watch Baxter when we don't have the ball, he's a liability. Lazy and won't pick anyone up

That's a tad harsh I think - it was Baxter who got back to make the tackle of the match in the home tie v spurs when they were through on goal. If it had been Doyle or McEveley it would probably have ended up being a penalty. For me Baxter and Doyle is a question for this season only (Doyle has no future at the club) and if it is true that they cannot play in the same side I would err on the side of keeping Baxter who, to my mind is a better long term proposition. Scougall may well do better for us against championship/premiership teams, but for me he has been disappointing from the start of the season right back to day 1 v Bristol City when he had perhaps our best chances on goal and missed the lot (apart from the Higgy goal which proved to be a false dawn didn't it)

 

[boo radley]

On the Baxter thing, can someone remember the last time he really performed and had a MOTM performance?

Just wondering if I've got a short memory and I'm being too hard on him, but I feel like the team are carrying him this season.

Preston away in the cup.

 

[Darthblade]

On the Baxter thing, can someone remember the last time he really performed and had a MOTM performance?

Just wondering if I've got a short memory and I'm being too hard on him, but I feel like the team are carrying him this season.

This has been our problem since September ....... no strikers and carrying too many players who are "ineffective" in this Division.
UTB & FTP

 

[Flatulent_Bob]

Preston away in the cup.

Was he really impressive? Clearly I didn't go and I'm happy to admit I only see half his performances this season but he just doesn't seem worth the risk at the minute.

 

[Darthblade]

re

It is indeed me (and sitters too) that can't see the Baxter and Scougal combination working.

It works against Prem teams in the cup as we sit very very deep and hit teams on the break, but where we have to push on and take the game to the opposition, it doesn't seem to work.
The Scoogs thing is beginning to piss me off now - scored 1, assisted 0 is not good enough. As for Baxter, why is the jury still out with such a talented player. I think we have to try something different, and that means possibly leaving Doyle out also.

We now have that many players, NC may never know his best team. Got a feeling Che Adams might play on Saturday which begs the question what to do with Murphy.

The lack of energy, effort and commitment was shocking last night v Preston and was a massive disapontment - time for the management to earn their corn. It is inconceivable that we lose to Gillingham - the knives will be out if we don't see some commitment to the promotion charge from now on. There is no cup " good will" to fall back on.

UTB

Agreed ........ I have been saying since about September that we can only have the luxury of one player from Scougal / Doyle / Baxter / Reed in the side at any one time in this "agricultural" Division. Currently, I would have Reed.

We are too easily bullied by most other sides and I find it unbelievable that Scougal still gets a shirt, week in week out, despite having no impact on league games all season. I'm guessing that he must have pictures on his phone of NC with the cleaning lady !!

McNulty proved last Tuesday that he is still a "development" player, imho as he was easily in the defenders pocket. How we have gone almost 3 years without signing a decent striker is a natural disaster on a BIBLICAL scale !!
UTB & FTP

 

[Rudders]

I don't think Baxter, Doyle or Scougall should be retained or in the team, maybe keep Scougall in the squad for his fitness.

 

[kop_blade9]

Personally think that Baxter plays best when he swaps with Murphy on the left wing.
But most of the the time I think meh! get him out of the team. He just does not do it for me.
I would sell him and cash in, now that we have plenty of cover in midfield.

 

[Fiery Blade]

My Rant:

I haven't enjoyed Baxter's game in a long time, he doesn't move well, he's always passing the ball back to the defence rather then playing it forward, and he never tries to get open for his team-mates. We need to sit his ass on the bench. Hoping Coutts or Reid can play this role.

Doyle is another one I have not been impressed with. He's absolutely rubbish on the attack side (don't think I've seen a shot of his come within 20 yards of the goal). And on defence he's slow and gives up free kicks in really bad locations. Would love to see Basham play that defensive midfielder role.

and finally, McEveley .... I think the game is just a tad bit too fast for him. 3 penalties in 4 games....no thanks, sit your ass on the bench.

Go Blades!!

Whilst I am not a Doyle fan, he did create the opening for Murphy to score on Tuesday evening !

 

[boo radley]

Was he really impressive? Clearly I didn't go and I'm happy to admit I only see half his performances this season but he just doesn't seem worth the risk at the minute.

Whilst not perfect he was our best player by a distance and controlled the game in the 2nd half.

 

[sitwell]

Many want to build a team around Baxter bizzarely ,yet apparently he cant play with Scougall ,he cant play with Doyle ? He hasn't had a stand out game all season ,I really don't get the obsession with him. For me he is a luxury type player we are trying to accomodate o the detriment of the team and a fish out of water ,no one knows his best position and why should we alter our formation to get him in when he simply isn't performing. I also don't like the way he berates other players on the pitch ,Scougall and McCeveley on Tuesday ,like Collins used to ,not when you aren't doing the business yourself. Clough is very kind to Baxter ,handles him the opposite to McNulty ,probably man management which is fair enough ,but for me he gets away with murder at Utd for some reason, His set pieces are embarrassing for a technically gifted player ,and although I admit he has good vision and touch he simply doesn't produce enough.

 

[Lane Ender]

I have watch him closely lately and apart from the odd nice touches and in the past some brilliance he is a luxury.

As L1 is type of football where work rate and application is vital Im afraid its hard to put forward a case for Baxter starting.

 

[MiserableBlader]

Does Baxter fit into ANY system, or is he a luxury player that you have to build a team around?

Gallagher is a luxury player.
When has Baxter ever shown the quality Gallagher did the other night?

Build a team around Baxter - why:?
Get rid.

 

[Fulwood Blade]

And if we don't get promoted at the end of the season?

more knives from more people - still too early for me. Disappointed I would be, would have a shit summer thinking of what might have been and thinking of the easy six points we could have off our porcine neighbours.

I actually would fancy our chances in the playoffs as I reckon, even against Preston, we would revert to our site deep cup formation and hit teams on the break. It's what we seem to do well, not loved by everyone, but it's the prize at the end that will dictate how we play.

UTB

 

[Woodwardfan]

more knives from more people - still too early for me. Disappointed I would be, would have a shit summer thinking of what might have been and thinking of the easy six points we could have off our porcine neighbours.

I actually would fancy our chances in the playoffs as I reckon, even against Preston, we would revert to our site deep cup formation and hit teams on the break. It's what we seem to do well, not loved by everyone, but it's the prize at the end that will dictate how we play.

UTB

Play-offs are like cup football.

If we have to play Preston I hope it's at Wembley where they wouldn't get away with the bullying so easily -showpiece game, televised, big pitch, big occasion, referee under scrutiny etc.

I wouldn't expect Clough to get the sack next summer either, not because I have 100% faith in him and certainly not his brother, but because as a matter of principle the man and his extensive team, indeed any manager and team warrant a proper crack at a rebuild. It certainly was a rebuild but why have there been so many signings, with so many so average and devoid of game-changers particularly strikers, that's my nagging doubt about it all. In the final analysis the cup successes will save him if we fail again to go up.

 

[Woodwardfan]

The manger will have my full support till the end of the season, when it's time to assess the whole season. There is little reason to change - Clough needs time to sort it out. That doesn't mean I can't get cross with games/performances - last night was a disgrace and considering (as NC said) they had nearly all had a rest, that type of performance, from professional footballers was horrendous. I expect and should see every game at least a willingness to give 100% effort and commitment to the SUFC cause. We didn't get it, and we were out run, out fought, out played and out muscled by a Preston team who actually stopped being thugs like a few weeks back. They thoroughly deserved to win the game.

The knives will be out from some if we don't beat Gillingham on Saturday, but not from me.

Clough is under pressure now and it will show him to be a good manager or perhaps not - we will see.

UTB

Any comments?

 

[Fulwood Blade]

Any comments?

not having a go at Clough.........yet, although it may come to that eventually - have always said he has strange foibles and there is still plenty at stake. Now is not the time to have a go - as in the stupid Clough out post.

Have consistently asked for centre halves since the first pre season game at Burton - saw both Butler and Collins look decidedly disinterested and feared for the worst even then.

I just want us to be absolutely rock sold with a couple of fucking monsters at centre halves who are big, strong and to a degree ruthless.

Kevin Davis pushed and pulled us all over the place in midweek - we are being out muscled and bullied all over the place so we have to stop conceding stupid and daft goals like we have all season.

UTB

 

[Woodwardfan]

not having a go at Clough.........yet, although it may come to that eventually - have always said he has strange foibles and there is still plenty at stake. Now is not the time to have a go - as in the stupid Clough out post.

Have consistently asked for centre halves since the first pre season game at Burton - saw both Butler and Collins look decidedly disinterested and feared for the worst even then.

I just want us to be absolutely rock sold with a couple of fucking monsters at centre halves who are big, strong and to a degree ruthless.

Kevin Davis pushed and pulled us all over the place in midweek - we are being out muscled and bullied all over the place so we have to stop conceding stupid and daft goals like we have all season.

UTB

Hey Fulwood, it's you who is the Clough disciple, KTF and all that. All of a sudden you are listening!