The wilder conundrum

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PeterNdlovu081 said:
We can't carry on like this anymore.

Wilder has lost the plot and it's not going to get any better.

People are fucking fed up with it all.

You can hire the biggest piss head in Europe for all I care as long as he gets us playing some decent football.
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OK I get it now, you're entire inferance is that Wilder and anyone that supports him are just pisseheads. OK think we're done.
 



RandomBlade said:
OK I get it now, you're entire inferance is that Wilder and anyone that supports him are just pisseheads. OK think we're done.
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That's the opposite of what I just said but okay.

Jurgen Klopp loves a beer but he was also a bloody good football manager.

I don't care if Chris Wilder is teetotal or a raging alcoholic but his time here is done.

We don't owe him a job for life.
 
nopigfansintown said:
Top ten budget is mythology because it's totally undermined by sunk cost. Our squad is not 8-10th in quality when Wilder walked back through the door, especially when you remove the three key players. It's a bottom half squad. Danny Wilson had one of the biggest budgets in the Championship when we lost to Huddersfield. Same equation.The players he's been allowed to bring in this season aren't consistent with a play off finish. That is compounded by when he's been allowed to bring them in: the only players in situ at the start of pre season that is struggling fitness wise is Campbell. If you sign players at the back of July/August fitness problems are inevitably going to bleed into your season. An inevitable result of "sell to buy" and "getting the wage bill down".

The real sickener? The exact same scenario is already guaranteed to happen next season. High chance it happens the following season too. Probably 60-70% chance as Jan recruitment is not to be advised (sellers market), which gives us two summers to sign circa 20 players when the churn happens and the better players get picked off.
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We weren’t in the.Championship when Wilson was manager
However my point is our budget allows us to pay (not buy) decent wages
Paying decent wages you’d expect better output
Who study’s our signings for speed technical ability fitness mental discipline who looks at the pros and cons
The whole club is being run like a basket case and that’s down to our owners
Allowing one man to have too much power
 
KMC-1889 said:
are you forgetting when Wilder took us down in 23/24 and was still here in 24/25?

Not like the Wilder mafia to miss an opportunity to bring up the 90pt season. Normally won’t stop banging on about.
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He wasn't 'still here', as you well know.

He left (by the 'back door', as the anti-CWs always point out), and we appointed Slav.

Making up 'facts' just to have a dig at Wilder is par for the course. from our foaming at the mouth fringe.
 
I should coco said:
He wasn't 'still here', as you well know.

He left (by the 'back door', as the anti-CWs always point out), and we appointed Slav.

Making up 'facts' just to have a dig at Wilder is par for the course. from our foaming at the mouth fringe.
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You've got the wrong seasons.

He originally left in March of the 2020-21 season.
 
PeterNdlovu081 said:
You're talking about people from 40 years ago.

Things have moved on a bit.

When we appointed Jokanovic he was the first foreign manager we'd ever had.

That doesn't seem normal to me for a professional football club in the year 2021.

Why do we always have to be so parochial? Can't we look at some people who might have a slightly wider or different perspective on the game of football?

Look at the characters we've had in charge in some capacity over recent years.

Heath, Slade, Warnock, Blackwell, Carver, Adams, Wilson, Morgan, Clough, Wilder, Heckingbottom...

It reads like the fucking ale committee at your local WMC.
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Completely agree.I got pelters when I criticised CW for dancing on the table and singing derogatory songs about Danny Rohl.Not the image I want the manager of our club to portray.Show your passion on the sidelines but leave all the pub singing to the fans.This is why we aren’t taken seriously and until we become a more professional outfit with a younger manager with fresh ideas we are stuck in this time warp of up and at em managers.
 
I should coco said:
He wasn't 'still here', as you well know.

He left (by the 'back door', as the anti-CWs always point out), and we appointed Slav.

Making up 'facts' just to have a dig at Wilder is par for the course. from our foaming at the mouth fringe.
Click to expand...
Do you not know how a calendar works?

Wilder took over from Hecky in the premier league, results didn't get any better (almost identical PPG) but Wilder was retained for the following championship season. You made up a 'fact' about Bassett being the only manager to stay on after relegation when Sir Cwisseh also got the opportunity and didn't get sacked until he completely fluffed his lines in the last 6 games of the season.

If you genuinely can't remember this you probably want to get yourself tested for early onset dementia.
 
KMC-1889 said:
Do you not know how a calendar works?

Wilder took over from Hecky in the premier league, results didn't get any better (almost identical PPG) but Wilder was retained for the following championship season. You made up a 'fact' about Bassett being the only manager to stay on after relegation when Sir Cwisseh also got the opportunity and didn't get sacked until he completely fluffed his lines in the last 6 games of the season.

If you genuinely can't remember this you probably want to get yourself tested for early onset dementia.
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I apologise unreservedly.

I done a silly old bastard thing and mixed up my seasons.

You're right, I'm wrong.

I'm still excluding DB in 89, but I'll add CW 24, to DB 94.
 
PeterNdlovu081 said:
That's the opposite of what I just said but okay.

Jurgen Klopp loves a beer but he was also a bloody good football manager.

I don't care if Chris Wilder is teetotal or a raging alcoholic but his time here is done.

We don't owe him a job for life.
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Oh I think you DO care. I think wilder is living rent free in your head
 
ATL Recs said:
We weren’t in the.Championship when Wilson was manager
However my point is our budget allows us to pay (not buy) decent wages
Paying decent wages you’d expect better output
Who study’s our signings for speed technical ability fitness mental discipline who looks at the pros and cons
The whole club is being run like a basket case and that’s down to our owners
Allowing one man to have too much power
Click to expand...

We weren't in the Championship but we had a budget that should have pissed the league we were in. In fact, we should have been two leagues above given the wage budget - if the assumption is "paying decent wages you'd expect a decent outcome". We were paying more than decent wages, so we should've expected a more than decent outcome.

I don't blame Wilson for not having us there as the players were being paid far in excess of their usefulness. The exact same scenario prevails now. You could apply that to Speed, Carver and Adams who were our managers in the Championship the year before - if it makes you happier, - albeit the analogy is clear anyway: sunk cost wages do not = an outcome. Especially when those players haven't lived up to their wages in the past. We've bought badly and we are stuck with an 8-10th overhead with footballers a long way off that in raw ability. There's maybe half a dozen that would reach that level - we need 25.

Re fees: we are now only paying fees for a handful of players maximum which is also a symbol of decline, especially when you see the names: Mcguinness, Chong, Tanganga, Cannon are the big ones. There maybe a bit owed on Burrows and Cooper. We haven't had a successful window of bringing in permanents since the summer of the third place season (albeit nowhere near enough).

Legacy contracts for overpaid players are a big problem. This lot could be the highest paid squad in the division and I'd still say the manager has a squad that is relegation material. I wouldn't say "he should be doing better because his squad is highly paid". That's regardless of who the coaching staff are.

Incoming players this season have been brought in with the mandate of "getting the wage bill down" and "balancing the books". Higher quality players require transfer fees and wages - incoming and outgoing. We're also "selling to buy" and reduced to "loans and frees" which creates a lot of additional problems.

United are screwed until they marry the fees and wages for the incomings and they choose the right players deserving of those fees and wages. The first requirement is around 20 outgoings players which will take around three seasons, imo, if we start in the next window - with the requisite backing for a manager, DOF, AI, whoever. Until then it's about staying in the league whilst the trickle of players hopefully makes us increasingly more competitive.

If this season's pattern repeats, we are on a one way ticket to league one.
 
PeterNdlovu081 said:
We can't carry on like this anymore.

Wilder has lost the plot and it's not going to get any better.

People are fucking fed up with it all.

You can hire the biggest piss head in Europe for all I care as long as he gets us playing some decent football.
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Yes we can.
 



Bettis and Danny Hall are doing everything they can to stop the TWAT getting sacked !
 

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nopigfansintown said:
We weren't in the Championship but we had a budget that should have pissed the league we were in. In fact, we should have been two leagues above given the wage budget - if the assumption is "paying decent wages you'd expect a decent outcome". We were paying more than decent wages, so we should've expected a more than decent outcome.

I don't blame Wilson for not having us there as the players were being paid far in excess of their usefulness. The exact same scenario prevails now. You could apply that to Speed, Carver and Adams who were our managers in the Championship the year before - if it makes you happier, - albeit the analogy is clear anyway: sunk cost wages do not = an outcome. Especially when those players haven't lived up to their wages in the past. We've bought badly and we are stuck with an 8-10th overhead with footballers a long way off that in raw ability. There's maybe half a dozen that would reach that level - we need 25.

Re fees: we are now only paying fees for a handful of players maximum which is also a symbol of decline, especially when you see the names: Mcguinness, Chong, Tanganga, Cannon are the big ones. There maybe a bit owed on Burrows and Cooper. We haven't had a successful window of bringing in permanents since the summer of the third place season (albeit nowhere near enough).

Legacy contracts for overpaid players are a big problem. This lot could be the highest paid squad in the division and I'd still say the manager has a squad that is relegation material. I wouldn't say "he should be doing better because his squad is highly paid". That's regardless of who the coaching staff are.

Incoming players this season have been brought in with the mandate of "getting the wage bill down" and "balancing the books". Higher quality players require transfer fees and wages - incoming and outgoing. We're also "selling to buy" and reduced to "loans and frees" which creates a lot of additional problems.

United are screwed until they marry the fees and wages for the incomings and they choose the right players deserving of those fees and wages. The first requirement is around 20 outgoings players which will take around three seasons, imo, if we start in the next window - with the requisite backing for a manager, DOF, AI, whoever. Until then it's about staying in the league whilst the trickle of players hopefully makes us increasingly more competitive.

If this season's pattern repeats, we are on a one way ticket to league one.
Click to expand...

I agree with virtually all if that but the caveat is that it is the manager that is given the budget and chooses how to spend it.

It definately won't correlate to league position if it's not spent wisely but that doesn't mean the budget wasn't there.

It's a fact we have a 8-10th wage budget. In fact if you look at some sources it's actually 5th. We, or more accurately CW, has decided how that healthy budget has been spent and at the minute it looks like it has been spent horrifically.

Doherty, Choudhary and BBD will all be up towards the top of our salary list and only BBD is likely to play any significant part if everyone is fit.

IMHO we could, and should, have done far better with what we had this summer.
 
PeterNdlovu081 said:
That's the opposite of what I just said but okay.

Jurgen Klopp loves a beer but he was also a bloody good football manager.

I don't care if Chris Wilder is teetotal or a raging alcoholic but his time here is done.

We don't owe him a job for life.
Click to expand...
Not with a points deduction and given our history in playoffs it doesnt look good
 
nopigfansintown said:
We weren't in the Championship but we had a budget that should have pissed the league we were in. In fact, we should have been two leagues above given the wage budget - if the assumption is "paying decent wages you'd expect a decent outcome". We were paying more than decent wages, so we should've expected a more than decent outcome.

I don't blame Wilson for not having us there as the players were being paid far in excess of their usefulness. The exact same scenario prevails now. You could apply that to Speed, Carver and Adams who were our managers in the Championship the year before - if it makes you happier, - albeit the analogy is clear anyway: sunk cost wages do not = an outcome. Especially when those players haven't lived up to their wages in the past. We've bought badly and we are stuck with an 8-10th overhead with footballers a long way off that in raw ability. There's maybe half a dozen that would reach that level - we need 25.

Re fees: we are now only paying fees for a handful of players maximum which is also a symbol of decline, especially when you see the names: Mcguinness, Chong, Tanganga, Cannon are the big ones. There maybe a bit owed on Burrows and Cooper. We haven't had a successful window of bringing in permanents since the summer of the third place season (albeit nowhere near enough).

Legacy contracts for overpaid players are a big problem. This lot could be the highest paid squad in the division and I'd still say the manager has a squad that is relegation material. I wouldn't say "he should be doing better because his squad is highly paid". That's regardless of who the coaching staff are.

Incoming players this season have been brought in with the mandate of "getting the wage bill down" and "balancing the books". Higher quality players require transfer fees and wages - incoming and outgoing. We're also "selling to buy" and reduced to "loans and frees" which creates a lot of additional problems.

United are screwed until they marry the fees and wages for the incomings and they choose the right players deserving of those fees and wages. The first requirement is around 20 outgoings players which will take around three seasons, imo, if we start in the next window - with the requisite backing for a manager, DOF, AI, whoever. Until then it's about staying in the league whilst the trickle of players hopefully makes us increasingly more competitive.

If this season's pattern repeats, we are on a one way ticket to league one.
Click to expand...
Not disagreeing with anything you’ve said but you can’t get away from the fact that the largest consistent indicator in final league position in any league across the globe is wage budget.

This is why recruitment is more critical than the manager. Any manager should be able to do a decent job with enough good players around them, whereas the best manager in the world making dogshit signings based on who he trusts won’t be able to get a tune out of them.
 
this has had me flip flopping alot in the last month. get rid now or in may, because the stats have been horrendous & we have been overachieving. there have been some cracking articles on this particulary the pinch

i do wonder if now getting rid of wilder wont help. because we rotten in multiple places & replacing 1 cog will not help as we need major surgery. the scouting, the recruitment, potentially the fitness. so sacking wilder wont solve the other multiple issues we have at this club
 
SB_90 said:
this has had me flip flopping alot in the last month. get rid now or in may, because the stats have been horrendous & we have been overachieving. there have been some cracking articles on this particulary the pinch

i do wonder if now getting rid of wilder wont help. because we rotten in multiple places & replacing 1 cog will not help as we need major surgery. the scouting, the recruitment, potentially the fitness. so sacking wilder wont solve the other multiple issues we have at this club
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True, though getting shut of Wilder would allow the new person to bring his staff in which helps on the fitness front, alongside tactics which helps the squad perform better rather than the rigid turd we've watched.
 
ComedyClub said:
True, though getting shut of Wilder would allow the new person to bring his staff in which helps on the fitness front, alongside tactics which helps the squad perform better rather than the rigid turd we've watched.
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but we would still be lumbered with this squad & we do have confidence anymore in buying players that would be successful. Micheal Cooper is still the last successful purchase we've made with a transfer fee. & that was august 2024

im erring on revamp behind the scenes. pay for the great scouting. because like the academy it will pay you back. & then start a fresh next may. hopefully still in the championship

but lose to lincoln & derby at home. things might change very quickly. but i fear we are setting new guy upto fail
 
I think Christmas could well be crunch time, Wilder will have had time to mould the team, who hopefully will have improved fitness wise at least. But the league position (fixtures for December are gruesome) will be key. If this mythical investment does materialise, will the new investor pull the trigger and have another man in charge for the JTW? Rosen needs to change things in the summer regardless, starting with a proper recruitment/scouting team and fitness regime, and if that upsets certain members of staff then tough.
 



Rufus T. Firefly said:
I think Christmas could well be crunch time, Wilder will have had time to mould the team, who hopefully will have improved fitness wise at least. But the league position (fixtures for December are gruesome) will be key. If this mythical investment does materialise, will the new investor pull the trigger and have another man in charge for the JTW? Rosen needs to change things in the summer regardless, starting with a proper recruitment/scouting team and fitness regime, and if that upsets certain members of staff then tough.
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There’s a few who will be mouldy by Christmas.
 
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