Have the players give up on Wilder ?

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BocciaBlade said:
When you criticise your players after a defeat after saying you trust them the day before that’s sending out the wrong signals and I’m sure his constant criticism of Brooks led to him leaving.He blows hot and cold and doesn’t accept criticism very well.Not sure he’s lost the dressing room quite yet but he doesn’t help himself and when the results aren’t good it highlights his faults.I just think he’s recruited badly and we’re just not very good.
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Dont be so daft. Criticism of brooks did not lead him to leave, the offer of more money than he was on was the factor in him leaving & probably along with going to a club that wasnt cutting their thread accordingly.
 
Blademan89 said:
Dont be so daft. Criticism of brooks did not lead him to leave, the offer of more money than he was on was the factor in him leaving & probably along with going to a club that wasnt cutting their thread accordingly.
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His relationship with Wilder definitely lead to him wanting to leave, the money and agent tipped it over the edge. Had he had a good reletionship with Wilder, and the club invested the money they were going to give Gus into Brookes then we probably could have kept him.
 
ATL Recs said:
Wilder had made it clear he wanted him in the Summer we just had no budget loan movement left hence he went to Stoke
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Throw in to the mix that before the 18/19 season he had a £7m bid for Martin Waghorn who then gazumped him for Derby and we ended up with David McGoldrick instead
 
Blade 1971 said:
Wilder has talked about seeking to bring in experience rather than gambling (my word, I can't recall how he put it) on youth.

Those of a certain age will remember that we've been here before. Gordon Cowans. Stuart McCall, the sainted Paul McGrath. Each gave a masterclass in how an old head could anchor teams.

There's an earlier example, at the back end of Porterfield (or was it McEwen?). Peter Withe. Phil Thompson. Ken McNaught (who wasn't too bad if memory serves). In an era when the game was so much slower than today we saw how packing a team with 'experience' could unravel.

But it's experience that Wilder wants. Rather than McGrath we have Choudrey and Doherty. Instead of Cowans and McCall we have Rothwell, Shackleton and the rest. Ouch. So players not of the same quality, but of an age that you'd reasonably expect could bring athleticism along with their experience. Ouch.

Wilder has squandered the resources at his disposal in this and previous transfer windows - Chong, McGuiness, Cannon, Doherty, (and I'll call it early) Ayew - and failed to lay any foundations whatsoever for a brighter future. I say limited resources, but I keep reading that our wage bill remains at the upper end of the Championship.

What happens next season? What is to be done?
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I can remember all 3 of McGrath, Cowans and McCall. Gary Speed was another who filled that role admirably. McCall I can remember being the best of the lot. He couldn’t run and barely shifted out of the centre circle, he legs had gone years before but he never seemed to misplace a pass, and seemed to be coaching the young tyros of the time (Jags, Tonge and Monty etc)

I think the days of the ultra experienced, old campaigner who just wants to play and help the youngsters has gone, and they’ve been replaced by journeymen who go on a season or two too long looking for one last payday.

It’s also rare you see player coaches as most of the young coaches have packed in playing, got qualifications and licences coming of their ears but don’t seem to having their own styles or being capable of deviating from what they’ve been indoctrinated in on these much vaulted courses they undertake
 
BessemerBob said:
I can remember all 3 of McGrath, Cowans and McCall. Gary Speed was another who filled that role admirably. McCall I can remember being the best of the lot. He couldn’t run and barely shifted out of the centre circle, he legs had gone years before but he never seemed to misplace a pass, and seemed to be coaching the young tyros of the time (Jags, Tonge and Monty etc)

I think the days of the ultra experienced, old campaigner who just wants to play and help the youngsters has gone, and they’ve been replaced by journeymen who go on a season or two too long looking for one last payday.

It’s also rare you see player coaches as most of the young coaches have packed in playing, got qualifications and licences coming of their ears but don’t seem to having their own styles or being capable of deviating from what they’ve been indoctrinated in on these much vaulted courses they undertake
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The McCall example is a great one. What Warnock did well was pair experience with youth, mobility and pace. For Wayne Alison he had Kaba next to him, for McCall he had Tonge, Brown, Monty and Jags around him.

The squad we have today is just so imbalanced with no real complimentary players….Tanganga is crying out for experience and a calm head next to him, maybe Kitching could be this? Philips, Jairo and Rothwell will need real mobility and dynamism next to them - instead we have Peck and Arblaster. Bamford needs electric pace running off of him - we have Donovan but now Wilder’s not playing him, instead we have Cannon and the lumbering Campbell.
 
I think Tanganga needs playing on the right side of a 3. I also think Campbell has also been starved off service as his game is playing off the shoulder of the last man and he is getting very little service at the minute.

I think Phillips should really be the seasoned old head who guides younger players but it’s difficult with some of the dross he is surrounded with. Jairo and Rothwell are slow midfielders who aren’t very good. Peck has got the energy but is regressing badly and Arblaster doesn’t seem the same player since his injury.

The Stoke match I really thought Galbraith was head and shoulders above anything we had in midfield and it was telling
 
BessemerBob said:
I can remember all 3 of McGrath, Cowans and McCall. Gary Speed was another who filled that role admirably. McCall I can remember being the best of the lot. He couldn’t run and barely shifted out of the centre circle, he legs had gone years before but he never seemed to misplace a pass, and seemed to be coaching the young tyros of the time (Jags, Tonge and Monty etc)
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Every time it worked, we only had one of them because that was what was needed. Unfortunately, we seem to be developing a squad half full of them, no doubt taking up a huge chunk of the wage bill. If the one had just been Phillips that would have been ok. But I really can’t see the point of adding Doherty, Ayew and Rothwell to it as well. They should all be seeing out the dog days of their careers in L1 at best. An egregious waste of precious budget. I could just about make a case for Choudhury as a utility sub on an appropriately low wage, but if we’re paying him any more than £15k a week it’s yet another very shit decision.
 
Borbokisfreekick said:
His relationship with Wilder definitely lead to him wanting to leave, the money and agent tipped it over the edge. Had he had a good reletionship with Wilder, and the club invested the money they were going to give Gus into Brookes then we probably could have kept him.
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We were never going to offer that sort of money to brooks.

Tough love is what some players need a bit of a kick up arse to help them, clearly it was working has he was fired up in games and was improving.

If he doesn't lile criticism then hes in the wrong job.
 
we did need some experienced heads in the squad but wilder has gone too far down that route and brought too many older players in and its resulted in our current slow build up play every team weve faced this season have had younger more pacy and athletic players breezing past us at will
 
Sean Thornton said:
I know. That history was rewritten when he didn’t start too well.
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His transfer value goes down every 12 weeks as well. Wont be too long before we actually got him on a free.

Same with phillips, man city are paying us to take him apparently. 😂
 
ancientblade said:
we did need some experienced heads in the squad but wilder has gone too far down that route and brought too many older players in and its resulted in our current slow build up play every team weve faced this season have had younger more pacy and athletic players breezing past us at will
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He gave the game away last season when he said it wasn't his job to coach players.

He picks the names, tells them where to stand and if they don't do want he wants then it's the players fault for not doing what he said.

Dinosaur.
 
BessemerBob said:
I think Phillips should really be the seasoned old head who guides younger players but it’s difficult with some of the dross he is surrounded with. Jairo and Rothwell are slow midfielders who aren’t very good.
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Imagine Phillips, been training with some of the best players on the planet then get a game alongside this dross😂

How long till he gives up and is brought down to their level

From playing thro balls to Haaland, to Ayew😱
 



KMC-1889 said:
He gave the game away last season when he said it wasn't his job to coach players.

He picks the names, tells them where to stand and if they don't do want he wants then it's the players fault for not doing what he said.

Dinosaur.
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He's right.
 
Nick Jansky said:
Every time it worked, we only had one of them because that was what was needed. Unfortunately, we seem to be developing a squad half full of them, no doubt taking up a huge chunk of the wage bill. If the one had just been Phillips that would have been ok. But I really can’t see the point of adding Doherty, Ayew and Rothwell to it as well. They should all be seeing out the dog days of their careers in L1 at best. An egregious waste of precious budget. I could just about make a case for Choudhury as a utility sub on an appropriately low wage, but if we’re paying him any more than £15k a week it’s yet another very shit decision.
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Exactly this 100%.

Experience is great and much needed IF it is used to supplement all the other aspects needed for a successful team.

McCall was in a MF 4 of him, Tonge, Lord Brown at his absolute peak and Ndlove (I've never been able to spell his name). He complimented the others.

Look at the "experience" we've signed this summer and it's a totally different story. It's not there to supplement, it's there to be the main focus.
 
Nick Jansky said:
Every time it worked, we only had one of them because that was what was needed. Unfortunately, we seem to be developing a squad half full of them, no doubt taking up a huge chunk of the wage bill. If the one had just been Phillips that would have been ok. But I really can’t see the point of adding Doherty, Ayew and Rothwell to it as well. They should all be seeing out the dog days of their careers in L1 at best. An egregious waste of precious budget. I could just about make a case for Choudhury as a utility sub on an appropriately low wage, but if we’re paying him any more than £15k a week it’s yet another very shit decision.
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I fully agree with that point.

I’d liked Choudhary when I’d seen him at Leicester and on loan at other clubs, but he wasn’t great on his last loan spell and he doesn’t look like a right back to me either. He has been a huge disappointment

Ayew looks more suited to walking football but it’s quite clear that after selling O’Hare he was the first thing that Wilder pulled out of the free transfer reject bin on dross that nobody wanted
 
Upton_Blade said:
He definitely wasn't IMHO.

Gordan Cowans gets in my "All Time SUFC 11" that I've seen with my own eyes every day of the week and twice on Sunday.

McCall was fantastic but he wasn't a patch on Cowans.
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McCall seemed to go for a lot longer but Cowans in his half season was a quality player too. I always used to think he must have been some player in his heydey.

The sad postscript to Gordon Cowans is that nowadays he is around 70 years old now and struggling with dementia.
 
BessemerBob said:
I fully agree with that point.

I’d liked Choudhary when I’d seen him at Leicester and on loan at other clubs, but he wasn’t great on his last loan spell and he doesn’t look like a right back to me either. He has been a huge disappointment

Ayew looks more suited to walking football but it’s quite clear that after selling O’Hare he was the first thing that Wilder pulled out of the free transfer reject bin on dross that nobody wanted
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Chaudhray filled in great as RB on his last stint. Thats why hes back. BUT looks like hes forgot how to play there. Ayews walking football shows more energy than Campbell or Cannons feeble attempts at full pace football.
 
Players retain responsibility for their own performances, but that doesn't remove the coach/manager's responsibility for improving the players and the team.

If you think it doesn't, then what is he actually bringing to the party?

If the answer to “Given the players we've got, what can the manager do to make this team better?” is essentially “not much, because the players simply aren't good enough”, then fair enough. That may be a legitimate assessment of the squad he has built.

But it also raises a pretty obvious question: what is the manager actually contributing to improving the situation?

A manager can't turn poor players into world-beaters. But coaching is supposed to improve what you have, tactically, individually and collectively. It's supposed to find ways of getting more out of players, develop them, solve problems and make the team better than the sum of its parts.

That's the issue when “the squad isn't good enough” becomes the entire defence of the manager's performance, particularly when we're talking about a squad where he signed the majority of the players to fit his own philosophy, which appears to prioritise experience over almost everything else.

You can't simultaneously claim the players aren't good enough and treat that as entirely separate from the responsibility of the person who selected and coached them.
 
Carlton Blade said:
Players retain responsibility for their own performances, but that doesn't remove the coach/manager's responsibility for improving the players and the team.

If you think it doesn't, then what is he actually bringing to the party?

If the answer to “Given the players we've got, what can the manager do to make this team better?” is essentially “not much, because the players simply aren't good enough”, then fair enough. That may be a legitimate assessment of the squad he has built.

But it also raises a pretty obvious question: what is the manager actually contributing to improving the situation?

A manager can't turn poor players into world-beaters. But coaching is supposed to improve what you have, tactically, individually and collectively. It's supposed to find ways of getting more out of players, develop them, solve problems and make the team better than the sum of its parts.

That's the issue when “the squad isn't good enough” becomes the entire defence of the manager's performance, particularly when we're talking about a squad where he signed the majority of the players to fit his own philosophy, which appears to prioritise experience over almost everything else.

You can't simultaneously claim the players aren't good enough and treat that as entirely separate from the responsibility of the person who selected and coached them.
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The manager/coach , different roles, do not decide who is bought or sold. Yes they have a list of who'd theyd like to buy or offer new contract to, but ultimately it's down to the board. Wilder and coaches are trying to polish a turd at the moment.
 
RandomBlade said:
The manager/coach , different roles, do not decide who is bought or sold. Yes they have a list of who'd theyd like to buy or offer new contract to, but ultimately it's down to the board. Wilder and coaches are trying to polish a turd at the moment.
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Give over ffs. Who's he asking for permission? He's the senior football person at the club
 



RandomBlade said:
The manager/coach , different roles, do not decide who is bought or sold. Yes they have a list of who'd theyd like to buy or offer new contract to, but ultimately it's down to the board. Wilder and coaches are trying to polish a turd at the moment.
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Who put the current failures on this seasons list prepared for the board?
 
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