Director of Football Coming In?

[Carlton Blade]

I’ve been guilty of overthinking this in times past.

Fact is people want a winning team.

They’ll convince themselves whatever method used is the one that works, if it produces results.

If Wilder reintroduced slavery and only Fef the players when they won and we got promoted on the back of it, you’d have folk on message Boards around the country advocating the same.

The diluted accountability is the main issue with DoF. If someone else had picked my staff at work and they started making mistakes I’d be very loathe to accept it was wholeheartedly my fault when they failed to perform. Maybe changing manager would make these deadbeats perform better? Or maybe the problem is the one choosing the deadbeats.

Bale went for 95m. Spurs spectacularly wasted it. Best was probably 11m on Erickson while they spent 30m on Lamela who was rubbish and the Spanish striker who wouldn’t hit a barn door. That was ALL DoF driven, nothing to do with the Head Coach.

So for every Swansea, who had a good run of playing the same way (though perhaps that was the Chairman), and this is admirable, there’s a DoF spaffing cash on shite. Our nearest non manager effort was James Bord and the last summer!

Again, James Bord was a con man. COH got played.

The only argument people have is "look, some clubs undrperformed, so why bother". Now do the ones who overachieved, consistently. Good people, properly managed, in the roles they specialise in working towards the same goal

 

[Bergen Blade]

On the contrary, over the past ten years we have over-achieved for a club of our size and budget. We've been crowned League One Champions, been promoted to the PL twice and made the Play Off final last year.

If that's repeated failure, how would you describe the achievements of Birmingham, Swansea, Watford, West Brom, Leicester, Norwich, Bolton, Huddersfield and Charlton over the past decade - all of whom have a DoF in place?

I hope to see three consecutive seasons in the top division at one stage. We haven't managed that since Bassett's era.

The following clubs have done that since 2000 (if chatgpt is to be trusted):

• Arsenal F.C.
• Aston Villa F.C.
• Blackburn Rovers F.C.
• Bolton Wanderers F.C.
• Brighton & Hove Albion F.C.
• Brentford F.C.
• Burnley F.C.
• AFC Bournemouth
• Charlton Athletic F.C.
• Chelsea F.C.
• Crystal Palace F.C.
• Everton F.C.
• Fulham F.C.
• Leeds United F.C.
• Leicester City F.C.
• Liverpool F.C.
• Manchester City F.C.
• Manchester United F.C.
• Middlesbrough F.C.
• Newcastle United F.C.
• Nottingham Forest F.C.
• Portsmouth F.C.
• Southampton F.C.
• Stoke City F.C.
• Sunderland A.F.C.
• Swansea City A.F.C.
• Tottenham Hotspur F.C.
• Watford F.C.
• West Bromwich Albion F.C.
• West Ham United F.C.
• Wigan Athletic F.C.
• Wolverhampton Wanderers F.C.

 

[Dkc]

Again, James Bord was a con man. COH got played.

The only argument people have is "look, some clubs undrperformed, so why bother". Now do the ones who overachieved, consistently. Good people, properly managed, in the roles they specialise in working towards the same goal

That's not the only argument.

We currently have a manager who presumably doesn't want to work under a DoF. If we appointed one against his will, instability would ensure.

The calls to bring a DoF in are also based on the argument that we are serial losers and something has to change. This is not correct. We are actually doing okay for a club of our size and wealth. You can look at Brentford and Brighton as evidence we are doing something wrong. But equally you can look at the pigs and Leicester as evidence that by and large we are getting it right.

 

[Dkc]

I hope to see three consecutive seasons in the top division at one stage. We haven't managed that since Bassett's era.

The following clubs have done that since 2000 (if chatgpt is to be trusted):

• Arsenal F.C.
• Aston Villa F.C.
• Blackburn Rovers F.C.
• Bolton Wanderers F.C.
• Brighton & Hove Albion F.C.
• Brentford F.C.
• Burnley F.C.
• AFC Bournemouth
• Charlton Athletic F.C.
• Chelsea F.C.
• Crystal Palace F.C.
• Everton F.C.
• Fulham F.C.
• Leeds United F.C.
• Leicester City F.C.
• Liverpool F.C.
• Manchester City F.C.
• Manchester United F.C.
• Middlesbrough F.C.
• Newcastle United F.C.
• Nottingham Forest F.C.
• Portsmouth F.C.
• Southampton F.C.
• Stoke City F.C.
• Sunderland A.F.C.
• Swansea City A.F.C.
• Tottenham Hotspur F.C.
• Watford F.C.
• West Bromwich Albion F.C.
• West Ham United F.C.
• Wigan Athletic F.C.
• Wolverhampton Wanderers F.C.

We've spent seven seasons in the PL. Not consecutively but still better than some of those teams above.

 

[Nick Jansky]

We've spent seven seasons in the PL. Not consecutively but still better than some of those teams above.

We’ve spent 6 seasons there.

 

[Carlton Blade]

That's not the only argument.

We currently have a manager who presumably doesn't want to work under a DoF. If we appointed one against his will, instability would ensure.

The calls to bring a DoF in are also based on the argument that we are serial losers and something has to change. This is not correct. We are actually doing okay for a club of our size and wealth. You can look at Brentford and Brighton as evidence we are doing something wrong. But equally you can look at the pigs and Leicester as evidence that by and large we are getting it right.

Where have we been called 'serial losers'? I've said, about 100 times it's about maximising your resources and giving your 1st team the most chance to succeed to the level those resources realistically allow.

I don't really give a fuck who the manager is, I care specifically that the team and club are competing to the best they possibly can, with as little waste as possible.

 

[Kenilworth]

The best managers in the world work with a DoF , many appear accepting or welcoming of the structure .

They're obviously all wrong for doing so

Not what I have said at all.
It needs a level of funding and infrastructure that we simply aren’t geared for. Until then …

 

[Keen Blade]

I hope to see three consecutive seasons in the top division at one stage. We haven't managed that since Bassett's era.

The following clubs have done that since 2000 (if chatgpt is to be trusted):

• Arsenal F.C.
• Aston Villa F.C.
• Blackburn Rovers F.C.
• Bolton Wanderers F.C.
• Brighton & Hove Albion F.C.
• Brentford F.C.
• Burnley F.C.
• AFC Bournemouth
• Charlton Athletic F.C.
• Chelsea F.C.
• Crystal Palace F.C.
• Everton F.C.
• Fulham F.C.
• Leeds United F.C.
• Leicester City F.C.
• Liverpool F.C.
• Manchester City F.C.
• Manchester United F.C.
• Middlesbrough F.C.
• Newcastle United F.C.
• Nottingham Forest F.C.
• Portsmouth F.C.
• Southampton F.C.
• Stoke City F.C.
• Sunderland A.F.C.
• Swansea City A.F.C.
• Tottenham Hotspur F.C.
• Watford F.C.
• West Bromwich Albion F.C.
• West Ham United F.C.
• Wigan Athletic F.C.
• Wolverhampton Wanderers F.C.

I share your sentiment ,
But as the £ rules change , we'll soon see the parachutes going straight back up ,
And soon after that , the PL will close its doors.
Or , if it doesn't , there'll be another crack at the European league - which might be better for us , give us more chance of making the cut before we run completely out of £

 

[Keen Blade]

We’ve spent 6 seasons there.

And Bassett keeping us there for 4 of them was the achievement of a genius.

Of course I was around for Harris & his 5 seasons 71-76 but that was a whole different ball-game.
If you're first eleven were good that was enough , they played almost every game.
Then came the PL and its "whole new ball-game".
Clubs became a colander for £ to pour into players' pockets and that was the end of the football as I knew it.

 

[KMC-1889]

Plenty of clubs have a similar structure to ours and are very successful. Some very successful managers prefer to work in a similar way to Wilder. Did Alex Ferguson at Man U, Mourinho at Chelsea or Clough at Forest work under a DoF? Were their fans complaining about the lack of a DoF as the trophies stacked up?

Your most recent example was over a decade ago.

And yes, both Ferguson and Mourinho worked with a technical board. They were innovators that pioneered the idea.

 

[KMC-1889]

We currently have a manager who presumably doesn't want to work under a DoF. If we appointed one against his will, instability would ensure.

it shouldn’t have anything to do with the fucking manager. He’s not paid to run the club, he’s paid to coach the first team. If he doesn’t like it he can fuck off and go golfing with wit again.

 

[Danetheblade]

Modernise is not just a DoF though, is it?
Cat 2 to Cat 1 is a modernisation.

Again the spurious argument as a rebuttal is that I’m against modernisation, I’m not. The DoF is not the answer IMO but it may be a piece of the jigsaw at a later date IF investment and infrastructure warrants one.

You’re all jumping away from one man taking the majority of decisions ( for which he has full accountability) to a structure where one man can make all the decisions with no accountability.

“Oh, but the DoF will have a team of people to help make a decision.”
Yes, so does a manager, but it’s no different - the DoF still has the final say. So, how is that modernising? It’s the same shit with a different coat, only this time you can’t shift the DoF as they hide behind the success or otherwise of the coach/manager in place at that time.

“It’ll be different”
Why will it?
“Because other clubs do it and they’re more modern than us”
Plenty of examples of clubs that have a DoF and have no more success than we have.

“Ah, but the majority of the clubs in the Prem have got one. Ergo, it’s a sure fire way to become successful”
We’re no where near that level in terms of maturity of infrastructure or funding.
I reckon if you analysed the facilities and infrastructure of virtually all those clubs and compared it to SUFC you’ll see why we are punching far above our weight.

It’d be different as the recruitment wouldn’t be set for one man’s thoughts, there’d be an action plan in place for how the club wants to play, rather than how one man wants to play, you say it’s just the premier league clubs, but it’s not. Quite a few championship clubs and some league one clubs operate with this model, it takes away the need for us to be stuck with one mans model and thought process which in turn keeps us in this cycle.

 

[Bergen Blade]

We've spent seven seasons in the PL. Not consecutively but still better than some of those teams above.

For PL seasons to be remembered with fondness the team would at least had to have been competitive. Although the Bassett and Warnock relegations were painful, they were very dramatic seasons with a lot of excitement, nerves, ups and downs until the very end. Our last two relegations were just embarrassing.

It was a shame we couldn't evolve/build on 2019/20.

 

[Dkc]

And Bassett keeping us there for 4 of them was the achievement of a genius.

If we had four under Bassett, one under Warnock, two under Wilder and one under Hecky/Wilder that's eight.

Presumably at least one under Bassett was before the top flight's name was changed to the PL.

 

[Dkc]

For PL seasons to be remembered with fondness the team would at least had to have been competitive. Although the Bassett and Warnock relegations were painful, they were very dramatic seasons with a lot of excitement, nerves, ups and downs until the very end. Our last two relegations were just embarrassing.

It was a shame we couldn't evolve/build on 2019/20.

Yeah, finishing 9th and almost qualifying for Europe wasn't too bad

 

[Champagneblade]

The best managers in the world work with a DoF , many appear accepting or welcoming of the structure .

They're obviously all wrong for doing so

It’s really not hard to pic out elite players though, is it? Mbappe you say? Ok then! Amazing call!

At a level lower down HIW much value do you think Brian Tinnian, for example, a failed manager himself, brings over Wilder at this level?

 

[Nick Jansky]

Yeah, finishing 9th and almost qualifying for Europe wasn't too bad

We had 2 seasons under Bassett. But the consecutive promotions and then keeping us up there for 4 seasons with the chaotic state the club was in at that time after Brearley had run out of money was the biggest achievement of any manager in modern times.

 

[Champagneblade]

Again, James Bord was a con man. COH got played.

The only argument people have is "look, some clubs undrperformed, so why bother". Now do the ones who overachieved, consistently. Good people, properly managed, in the roles they specialise in working towards the same goal

It’s a circular argument. Who was DoF when Forest won back to back European Cups?

Either side can pick winners.

As you say, you can get entrenched in this too much. You need good people.

Did we sign a load of gosh last season because of structure? No. It’s because those doing the job did it badly.

It’s just not clear who is held ultimately accountable. You can’t have more than one boss. Amazon has Jeff Bezos. Apple has(d) Tim Cook. The US has Donald Trump. There’s no co-sharing.

So who works for who and who decides which one failed if the season doesn’t pan out?

 

[Carlton Blade]

It’s a circular argument. Who was DoF when Forest won back to back European Cups?

Either side can pick winners.

As you say, you can get entrenched in this too much. You need good people.

Did we sign a load of gosh last season because of structure? No. It’s because those doing the job did it badly.

It’s just not clear who is held ultimately accountable. You can’t have more than one boss. Amazon has Jeff Bezos. Apple has(d) Tim Cook. The US has Donald Trump. There’s no co-sharing.

So who works for who and who decides which one failed if the season doesn’t pan out?

If you're comparing football pre-Premier League, global player movement and the explosion in finances with the late 7070s/early 80s then it's a pointless argument. Squads were about 15 players and a reserve team, no academies etc.

The 'boss' is the person ultimately responsible for the club, the owner. They set the structure. Pretending everyone else is anything other than the employee is silly

 

[Carlton Blade]

It’s really not hard to pic out elite players though, is it? Mbappe you say? Ok then! Amazing call!

At a level lower down HIW much value do you think Brian Tinnian, for example, a failed manager himself, brings over Wilder at this level?

If Tinnian allowed Wilder an extra 20 hours a week to focus on his actual job, a fuckload

 

[Silent Blade]

Of course I was around for Harris & his 5 seasons 71-76 but that was a whole different ball-game.

Harris didnt manage us from December 1973, looks like you have forgotten Furphy and Sirrel!

 

[Champagneblade]

If you're comparing football pre-Premier League, global player movement and the explosion in finances with the late 7070s/early 80s then it's a pointless argument. Squads were about 15 players and a reserve team, no academies etc.

The 'boss' is the person ultimately responsible for the club, the owner. They set the structure. Pretending everyone else is anything other than the employee is silly

Not really it isn’t. The owner isn’t the Boss of the playing side. He delegates that. So same question. To whom? The Manager or the DoF?

If it’s a bad season then either the DoF goes or both go but you can tha be the manager going but not the DoF if he’s the one above the manager.

 

[Champagneblade]

If Tinnian allowed Wilder an extra 20 hours a week to focus on his actual job, a fuckload

It that’s the point isn’t it? Brian Tinnian is the sort of level we would end up with.

I’d rather Wilder, who actually knows how to get teams promoted, handle the incoming players than a bloke who has at best overseen a period of beige and for whom his own fans don’t even rate.

 

[Danetheblade]

It that’s the point isn’t it? Brian Tinnian is the sort of level we would end up with.

I’d rather Wilder, who actually knows how to get teams promoted, handle the incoming players than a bloke who has at best overseen a period of beige and for whom his own fans don’t even rate.

If Rotherham are potentially getting Steve McLaren (an ex England manager) in as a DOF, we’d be able to attract at least similar if not better.

 

[jt64]

Not really it isn’t. The owner isn’t the Boss of the playing side. He delegates that. So same question. To whom? The Manager or the DoF?

It is the manager's job to get the best out of the playing side. It is the DoF's job to build it

 

[Carlton Blade]

Not really it isn’t. The owner isn’t the Boss of the playing side. He delegates that. So same question. To whom? The Manager or the DoF?

If it’s a bad season then either the DoF goes or both go but you can tha be the manager going but not the DoF if he’s the one above the manager.

So you think every club should fully reset with a manager change? Full change of players? Because that's the result of the same person managing short and long term.

It's the owners job to assign blame and credit and move staff on as they see fit. It's also their job to look beyond the end of their nose

 

[Carlton Blade]

It that’s the point isn’t it? Brian Tinnian is the sort of level we would end up with.

I’d rather Wilder, who actually knows how to get teams promoted, handle the incoming players than a bloke who has at best overseen a period of beige and for whom his own fans don’t even rate.

What does "knows how to get teams promoted" even mean? The teamhe got promoted otedto the PL took 6 windows to fully form. The 24/25 team had 3 key players he didn't sign.

His only is to manage the first team and get the best out of the players.

 

[Champagneblade]

What does "knows how to get teams promoted" even mean? The teamhe got promoted otedto the PL took 6 windows to fully form. The 24/25 team had 3 key players he didn't sign.

His only is to manage the first team and get the best out of the players.

He’s built two promotion winning teams at United and won promotion at Northampton and Oxford as well, at all of them he was in charge of recruitment.

He knows what components you need to assemble a team capable of promotion. Last year accruing 92 would have been enough in every season bar that one.

How many has Brian Tinnian put together?

It’s not easy to apportion blame.

DoF brings in inadequate players and the manager can’t get top results from them. The DoF says the players were good and it’s the manager that isn’t. The manager says its the players who weren’t up to the standard. The DoF is the one, I assume, who chooses the manager.

How do the owners decide who was to blame, assuming they delegate because they are not experts themselves?

We're not going to agree but I can understand why United are not choosing this route at this level.

 

[Booker4]

Is there any actual rumour/evidence of
a DoF coming in?

 

[Carlton Blade]

He’s built two promotion winning teams at United and won promotion at Northampton and Oxford as well, at all of them he was in charge of recruitment.

He knows what components you need to assemble a team capable of promotion. Last year accruing 92 would have been enough in every season bar that one.

How many has Brian Tinnian put together?

It’s not easy to apportion blame.

DoF brings in inadequate players and the manager can’t get top results from them. The DoF says the players were good and it’s the manager that isn’t. The manager says its the players who weren’t up to the standard. The DoF is the one, I assume, who chooses the manager.

How do the owners decide who was to blame, assuming they delegate because they are not experts themselves?

We're not going to agree but I can understand why United are not choosing this route at this level.

If you can't decide how to run a business, don't own one. "It's hard" is the point of football. Claiming that it being difficult means you shouldn't do it is absolutely crazy thinking to me.

I can understand it too. It's much easier to employ one person then it is to put in place people and processes that will ensure consistency of decision making and not selling out the medium and long term