Why can't we question him?

[NordicHarry]

I'm not saying you can't question him but also have a bit of context.
We looked utterly dreadful under Selles and it took a while for performances to really start to turn round.
I genuinely thought we would do well to avoid relegation earlier in the season even after Wilder came in and we won a couple.

He like many other managers mixes the side up when we have 3 game weeks. It's to keep players fresher and try to minimize injuries.
Issue we have is that some of these players we are rotating I personally don't think are really quite good enough. So the quality of the starting line up fluctuates.
We also have a few injuries and of course 2 bans.

The squad was overhauled in the summer and it was overhauled quite poorly. With alot of money spent too.
Regardless of what manager came in after Selles they all would likely have seen this and wanted to change the squad a bit, meaning a change in direction.

When you mention signings by Wilder you can argue there have been some poor one's over the years absolutely.
But there's also been some cracking ones.
How can it be a very low % of actual good signings when he has previously delivered us success? (Are we ignoring Fleck, O'Connell, Baldock, McGoldrick, Duffy, Stevens... the list is too long to be honest. But is this too far in the past perhaps?)

But even right now with this current squad. I'd argue that Cooper, O'Hare, Bamford, Reidewald are good signings and are currently considered so.
Cooper hasn't been quite as good this season but still showed last night why he was a top keeper last term.

I'd also chuck in McCallum as a decent one. And last season no one would have questioned that Campbell and Burrows weren't decent signings too.
Their form has dropped this season but they were excellent last term as well. Chuck in Souttar and Choudhary as well from last year.

I don't think people can under estimate the repercussions of the Summer of 2025. New manager, new recruitment, new coaching methods.
The summer is when you also condition your players properly too. And we gambled it all on Selles.
Fine if we changed Wilder after the PO final, but what followed has knocked us right back.

Thank you for a legitimate response and not have face on like others have.
You raise good points, I personally think him promising things will change has hit me the most, as I can't really see much change whatsoever. And the fact that this season seems to have been there for the taking has made it far worse.

Maybe we'll see the true changes in the summer but why not say that instead of saying there's a plan already in place for January and then continue to do sod all in Jan? Unless Hoever was the plan, then I am worried

 

[NordicHarry]

You can and did. Most people just don't with you which they're obviously not going to do when you write such a blinkered OP.

Not being able to see the connection between 1 and 2 and blaming him for 2 being a case in point. 4 is also delusional. He has by far the best transfer record of anyone at BL since at least Bassett. If last summer's transfer window was repeated this summer instead of the summer we'd got we'd now be preparing for automatic promotion. Instead we're scrambling around for loans to undo that expensive shitshow. There's very few players who aren't playing who deserve too. Brooks and Seriki were cooked from Saturday and the latter is carrying a knee issue. McCallum has just had stitches in his foot and came off injured. Jairo is injured. None of the others on the bench deserves a guranteed shirt.

The mind boggles if you think he's got a good track record for transfers. Yeah he's made some good ones obviously but you're talking 6/7 years ago when most of them were made?

He must put pictures of who he wants on the wall and picks them by firing a blunderbuss at it from 100 feet away.

Hussey, Leonard, Holmes, McBurnie (20mil) Brewster (22mil), Luke Freeman, the list could go on.

 

[bakeblade]

To sell players you need bids for them

Other clubs will be interested in the likes of McGuiness, Chong and Matos. Unfortunately they won't be offering any money and will be looking to put them on lower contracts. Best we can do is get them out on loan and subside their wages.

 

[MTBlade]

I suspect you have identified the problem, until there are significant outgoings he cant bring players in. He has said, rightly so, the squad is too big, its bloated with players simply not good enough, and if they aren't good enough for us its highly likely they aren't good enough for other teams either, so a bit of a catch 22.

And this is now a massive problem with all the money in football.

I said in another thread, players are now in total control.

They get paid stupid amounts of money to play football.

They no longer have to play to get a wage, as they dont need there play and goal bonuses.

Most at United will be on a decent wage and wont get it anywhere else at the level they can play at, so there is no need to move, so wont move.

This is why its so important to have the right recruitment team (aware theres another thread on that topic).

I hope I'm wrong, but there wont be many outs, so there wont be many (if anymore ins).

Promotion is pretty much gone now, so the owners (and rightly so), need to prepare for a lot less money from next season.

We are seeing the issue with overspending at S6 and I dont want United to go down that route

 

[AWetFlannel]

The mind boggles if you think he's got a good track record for transfers. Yeah he's made some good ones obviously but you're talking 6/7 years ago when most of them were made?

He must put pictures of who he wants on the wall and picks them by firing a blunderbuss at it from 100 feet away.

Hussey, Leonard, Holmes, McBurnie (20mil) Brewster (22mil), Luke Freeman, the list could go on.

I think he's got a good track record with transfers, this has been done to death.

Most people assume most other clubs have better transfer records than they do. EVERY club and manager has a Brewster, a Hussey and a Freeman.

If you're really not convinced, make the argument properly. Which SUFC manager in the last few decades has a transfer record which is significantly better? Or name another club that has and lay out the argument?

I'll start you off with the striker Fabio Silva at Wolves, £35 mill, 72 games, 5 goals. Signed by Nuno the same season we signed Brewster, when they were at their pomp. Complete flop.

 

[Brian Deane]

"Why can't I question him?"
"You can. You just did"

If you wanted debate, you should probably have gone for a less provocative thread title.

Like ......How much longer do we to tolerate this cunt ?

 

[jt64]

1. Constant changes in the side, often the bench looks stronger than the first team.

2. Lack of fitness speaks for itself really

It is weird how someone complains about 1 in the direct aftermath of a long midweek trip with games on the Saturday before and after it, yet wants to complain about 2 as well which, if we went an unchanged XI for all of Charlton, Soton and Ipswich (red cards not withstanding), would be an even bigger problem. You simply cannot play consistent 90s twice a week at any reputable level of football in the present era.

 

[Brian Deane]

It is weird how someone complains about 1 in the direct aftermath of a long midweek trip with games on the Saturday before and after it, yet wants to complain about 2 as well which, if we went an unchanged XI for all of Charlton, Soton and Ipswich (red cards not withstanding), would be an even bigger problem. You simply cannot play consistent 90s twice a week at any reputable level of football in the present era.

Its not helping playing players who appear to be out of shape, round, square or triangular .....Just to cover all bases

 

[CPB]

Thank you for a legitimate response and not have face on like others have.
You raise good points, I personally think him promising things will change has hit me the most, as I can't really see much change whatsoever. And the fact that this season seems to have been there for the taking has made it far worse.

Maybe we'll see the true changes in the summer but why not say that instead of saying there's a plan already in place for January and then continue to do sod all in Jan? Unless Hoever was the plan, then I am worried

He's been told he can have signings this window and he will make more.

BUT if you were the owners it depends on how you see things panning out this season. Losing these last two will have potentially dented their hopes of realistically getting a top 6 finish. And thus this could change the financial strategy for the next several months given the reduction in income to come. (Parachute payments massively reducing this summer for our final year of them).
I think it will be interesting to see what incomings happen now, I'd say that failing to beat Ipswich might make the board think of saving a bit of money for the summer.

Generally speaking If the club and Wilder hold out hope still of chasing the top 6 we have to pick up some good haul from the next 6 games. Which include Ipswich, Millwall, Boro and the derby.

I agree that this season has been an open one. Only Ipswich are really looking the part now of the parachute teams. (which includes us, Leicester and Southampton).
And it does frustrate me as well. This season whatever the outcome is a missed opportunity. (Even if we somehow get in the top 6). Because it's not very often so many parachute teams don't get their act together.

If the current bottom 3 in the PL drop you feel they will all be very strong compared to this season.

 

[dexter101]

To sell players you need bids for them

This.

People saying we should sell such and such a player. Its like sticking a car on ebay with no MOT, rust issues and no engine and getting cross when no one bids.

These players are here to stay, who on earth is going to buy them for money.

We can ship out young players on loan. But with this season as it is, we might as well wait for the summer to buy players.

Wilder isn't perfect, he makes mistakes, but last night I don't see he got much wrong in the big picture. If it was play off final and he picked that side, I would be livid, but it wasn't it was a midweek game in what appears to be a nothing season. We had a very good November, December wasn't great and January doesn't look much better. theres enough in the squad without injury to give us a long term platform to build on.

 

[SLB]

First of all sorry if this has been all said in another thread but;

It's easy to say all this after a woeful few weeks but when can we start questioning Wilder? Personally I'm already there but it seems to a lot of people it's Selles's fault we're in this position which is partly correct, but when can you blame Chris?

1. Constant changes in the side, often the bench looks stronger than the first team.

2. Lack of fitness speaks for itself really

3. Lack of tactical changes in game/weird substitutes

4. A very low % of actual good signings he's made throughout the years (yes I know Selles didn't help this season)

5. Plays his favourites over what's actually needed

6. Outbursts of drabble in his post match interviews.

7. Promises drastic changes in January when he came in and I haven't seen a thing to say it's changed, albeit we don't know what's going on behind the curtains.

I'm not entirely saying he needs to go, but if he didn't bleed red n white, people would definitely be calling for chop.
Where do we go from here??

I don't want to question him. Partly because I'm fed up listening to him.

 

[Willglynning]

The Cult of Wilder will come up with excuses for him at every possible opportunity.

The anti-Wilder brigade will moan about him no matter what's in or out of his control.


Much like everything in society today there's an increasingly smaller platform for people to be more moderate and central.

 

[ATL Recs]

Staying up is now the priority and if he does that then that's a win. I think we should judge him on next season. He will have a busy summer that's for sure lots of wheeler dealing with a minimal budget - lets see how he does then. This season was lost before he came back. I didn't want him back nor did I want the serial failure either. However is there really anyone better to keep the ship upright in our present and future predicament

 

[Lane Ender]

If we get relegated we will be able to criticise until then we keep quiet don’t you all know that !

 

[Kenilworth]

First of all sorry if this has been all said in another thread but;

It's easy to say all this after a woeful few weeks but when can we start questioning Wilder? Personally I'm already there but it seems to a lot of people it's Selles's fault we're in this position which is partly correct, but when can you blame Chris?

1. Constant changes in the side, often the bench looks stronger than the first team.

2. Lack of fitness speaks for itself really

3. Lack of tactical changes in game/weird substitutes

4. A very low % of actual good signings he's made throughout the years (yes I know Selles didn't help this season)

5. Plays his favourites over what's actually needed

6. Outbursts of drabble in his post match interviews.

7. Promises drastic changes in January when he came in and I haven't seen a thing to say it's changed, albeit we don't know what's going on behind the curtains.

I'm not entirely saying he needs to go, but if he didn't bleed red n white, people would definitely be calling for chop.
Where do we go from here??

Would like me to hire you a dehumidifier for your bedroom. I can see it’s absolutely soaking from your OP

 

[bladesmanluke]

No club has ever escaped relegation from the championship after the first 10 results we had.

 

[Peaktrade]

The thing that strikes me is when we can clearly see the team he’s fielded first half - why doesn’t he ever make immediate changes before second half kick off. It’s almost he closes his eyes and hope things change.

Literally his playbook is trickle substitutions between 60-65 minutes when he realises it’s not working

 

[Frank the tank]

First of all sorry if this has been all said in another thread but;

It's easy to say all this after a woeful few weeks but when can we start questioning Wilder? Personally I'm already there but it seems to a lot of people it's Selles's fault we're in this position which is partly correct, but when can you blame Chris?

1. Constant changes in the side, often the bench looks stronger than the first team.

2. Lack of fitness speaks for itself really

3. Lack of tactical changes in game/weird substitutes

4. A very low % of actual good signings he's made throughout the years (yes I know Selles didn't help this season)

5. Plays his favourites over what's actually needed

6. Outbursts of drabble in his post match interviews.

7. Promises drastic changes in January when he came in and I haven't seen a thing to say it's changed, albeit we don't know what's going on behind the curtains.

I'm not entirely saying he needs to go, but if he didn't bleed red n white, people would definitely be calling for chop.
Where do we go from here??

I think you just did

 

[Vass Borbokis]

I think he's got a good track record with transfers, this has been done to death.

Not recently he hasn't, nowhere near in fact.
The purple patch on signings ended when we were in the premiership, it's been downhill since and picking up speed.

If you're really not convinced, make the argument properly. Which SUFC manager in the last few decades has a transfer record which is significantly better? Or name another club that has and lay out the argument?

Hecky.
Hecky was hamstrung by the prince, but his signings pretty much all got sold for profit, or damn near close to what we paid for them.

I'll start you off with the striker Fabio Silva at Wolves, £35 mill, 72 games, 5 goals. Signed by Nuno the same season we signed Brewster, when they were at their pomp. Complete flop.

Complete flop, that scored 10 in 24 for a team relegated from LaLiga last season and now plays for Borussia Dortmund, in the German top flight.

 

[AWetFlannel]

Not recently he hasn't, nowhere near in fact.
The purple patch on signings ended when we were in the premiership, it's been downhill since and picking up speed.

Picking portions of time to judge his ability in the transfer market is selective and obviously unfair. Many felt last summer's transfer window was a huge success: Cooper, Burrows, McCallum, Campbell, Souttar, JRS, O'Hare.

Hecky.
Hecky was hamstrung by the prince, but his signings pretty much all got sold for profit, or damn near close to what we paid for them.

Adam Davies? Goode? Khadra? Obviously agree he got dealt a shit hand with the PL signings, but Luke Thomas and Larouci for left back?
People in this thread have put Ryan Leonard on Wilder's list of bad signings, despite the fact he was sold for a profit. If Trusty, Slimani and Traore are good signings, so were Evans and Leonard.

Complete flop, that scored 10 in 24 for a team relegated from LaLiga last season and now plays for Borussia Dortmund, in the German top flight.

Presumably you think that makes it better, whereas I'm sure Wolves fans don't feel the same. Completely ineffective for them and a huge financial loss. That he's doing better now surely compounds the misery.

 

[KMC-1889]

Selles had six games, most of which were without our best players and back line of Burrows, RND & Bindon. By the time we got to the Ipswich game the writing was on the wall before a ball was kicked.

A very vocal section of our fans are wedded to Chris Wilder and not the club, for a number of reasons. Nostalgia, access to tickets, they share mates etc… absolutely not of it is good for the club.

People that should be putting him under pressure (press, supporters groups, FAB, senior staff at United) are totally beholden to his cult of personality so will default to scapegoating.

Selles was/is a competent manager, but he was not responsible for the summer. The blame for this season goes back to April when we threw away top spot, which forced the board to make a change, which they made a total bollocks off, and let Selles take the fall because we don’t have a modern football club structure but appointed a modern football manager.

Case in point, wilders been back for 22 games now and he’s lost half of them, somehow this is still Selles’ fault.

 

[dc_blade]

I was in favour of Wilder leaving last summer. Not shouting and screaming about it, not calling him washed up, etc. Just felt that it was a chance to move the club forward for a number of reasons. So I'm obviously prepared to criticize him.

But I don't really blame him for last night. It's not serious to say we just keep playing our best XI every game, especially with the injuries and suspensions. Yes, I'd prefer to have Seriki and Brooks starting but they need a break. And the squad is unbalanced in other places, too.

The last couple of months have been pretty enjoyable from a football standpoint but the Oxford game being called off, the shameful display in the cup, and the debacle at Charlton have killed the season. I don't think there's any chance we go down but play offs have obviously gone now too. It's a shame.

If I felt the current owners were going to build a modern off the field structure for the club then I'd be in favour of trying a change again this summer. But I doubt it will happen so we're best sticking with Wilder, which I'm ok with. In the medium to long term we need to make some changes or we have very much hit our glass ceiling as a club.

ETA: If you criticize Wilder on this forum, you will get people disagreeing with you. Some of them can't imagine a future without him in charge and that can be annoying, I agree. But people disagreeing with you is not the same as "not being allowed" to say whatever you want. It's a public forum, expect a bit of give and take.

 

[54yrblade]

I was in favour of Wilder leaving last summer. Not shouting and screaming about it, not calling him washed up, etc. Just felt that it was a chance to move the club forward for a number of reasons. So I'm obviously prepared to criticize him.

But I don't really blame him for last night. It's not serious to say we just keep playing our best XI every game, especially with the injuries and suspensions. Yes, I'd prefer to have Seriki and Brooks starting but they need a break. And the squad is unbalanced in other places, too.

The last couple of months have been pretty enjoyable from a football standpoint but the Oxford game being called off, the shameful display in the cup, and the debacle at Charlton have killed the season. I don't think there's any chance we go down but play offs have obviously gone now too. It's a shame.

If I felt the current owners were going to build a modern off the field structure for the club then I'd be in favour of trying a change again this summer. But I doubt it will happen so we're best sticking with Wilder, which I'm ok with. In the medium to long term we need to make some changes or we have very much hit our glass ceiling as a club.

ETA: If you criticize Wilder on this forum, you will get people disagreeing with you. Some of them can't imagine a future without him in charge and that can be annoying, I agree. But people disagreeing with you is not the same as "not being allowed" to say whatever you want. It's a public forum, expect a bit of give and take.

The overarching issue is that our glass ceiling as club is directly linked to CW's as a manager, and now that of the business capacity and capabilities of COH. It's not looking a great combination either now or for the future.

 

[dc_blade]

The overarching issue is that our glass ceiling as club is directly linked to CW's as a manager, and now that of the business capacity and capabilities of COH. It's not looking a great combination either now or for the future.

In some ways it probably is, yeah. The most important thing we need to change to move up a level is to start recruiting from a much bigger market (i.e. Europe and elsewhere). The reason we don't do that is (I think, hard to say for sure from the outside) partly Wilder and partly the lack of a grown up recruitment structure.

 

[Nick Jansky]

He has by far the best transfer record of anyone at BL since at least Bassett.

I would say that particular accolade probably goes to Howard Kendall. With the obvious exception of John Ebbrell, but overall recruitment under him was excellent.

 

[Snowflake]

First of all sorry if this has been all said in another thread but;

It's easy to say all this after a woeful few weeks but when can we start questioning Wilder? Personally I'm already there but it seems to a lot of people it's Selles's fault we're in this position which is partly correct, but when can you blame Chris?

1. Constant changes in the side, often the bench looks stronger than the first team.

2. Lack of fitness speaks for itself really

3. Lack of tactical changes in game/weird substitutes

4. A very low % of actual good signings he's made throughout the years (yes I know Selles didn't help this season)

5. Plays his favourites over what's actually needed

6. Outbursts of drabble in his post match interviews.

7. Promises drastic changes in January when he came in and I haven't seen a thing to say it's changed, albeit we don't know what's going on behind the curtains.

I'm not entirely saying he needs to go, but if he didn't bleed red n white, people would definitely be calling for chop.
Where do we go from here??

Why go looking for someone to blame ? There are probably 30+ people involved in admin, management and playing who all share “the blame”. Why bother seeking the problem when it’s not ours to deal with ?

 

[Vass Borbokis]

selective and obviously unfair

You then proceeded to do the exact same for Hecky's signings.
You've listed Wilder's good signings from last summer (open to interpretation) (omitting the bad ones), yet omitted Hecky's good signings?
Why not mention Mcatee, Doyle, Anel, Hamer, Souza?

Hecky gets nowhere near enough credit for the job he did here.
He took over a side struggling in the championship and nearly got us into the playoffs.
Then got us promoted the next season.
Then was fucked over in a way which will take some beating (that lineup first day against Palace still haunts me).

Presumably you think that makes it better, whereas I'm sure Wolves fans don't feel the same. Completely ineffective for them and a huge financial loss. That he's doing better now surely compounds the misery.

So what you're saying is, they paid an inflated amount for a player showing great potential, who is now looking like fulfilling that potential? (still only 23 years old)
Wolves got ~20 million back for him, whereas we lost our entire investment on Brewster (the player you were comparing him to)

 

[ancientblade]

i advocated on here for wilder first time round but had mixed feelings about him coming back know hes been dealt a shit hand but im not sure its working and think our fanbase is split 50/50 with him now nearer relegation than top 6 and it would be a complete disaster if the club went down mind not leaving the players out of this its time they stood up to be counted

 

[54yrblade]

You then proceeded to do the exact same for Hecky's signings.
You've listed Wilder's good signings from last summer (open to interpretation) (omitting the bad ones), yet omitted Hecky's good signings?
Why not mention Mcatee, Doyle, Anel, Hamer, Souza?

Hecky gets nowhere near enough credit for the job he did here.
He took over a side struggling in the championship and nearly got us into the playoffs.
Then got us promoted the next season.
Then was fucked over in a way which will take some beating (that lineup first day against Palace still haunts me).


So what you're saying is, they paid an inflated amount for a player showing great potential, who is now looking like fulfilling that potential? (still only 23 years old)
Wolves got ~20 million back for him, whereas we lost our entire investment on Brewster (the player you were comparing him to)

I completely agree about Hecky not getting enough credit for what he did in getting us to the PL. That single effort may well have been the promotion that saved us from a world of financial grief, doing it at the same time as CW was 'repairing his relationship with the owners'.

A thoroughly decent guy who never made it about him.

He deserved much better than the hand he was dealt, in many ways.

 

[AWetFlannel]

You then proceeded to do the exact same for Hecky's signings.
You've listed Wilder's good signings from last summer (open to interpretation) (omitting the bad ones), yet omitted Hecky's good signings?
Why not mention Mcatee, Doyle, Anel, Hamer, Souza?

Yes, I'm doing the exact same to make the point. I don't go slagging Hecky off for being shit at recruitment, and I didn't when he was our manager. Anyone can make one sided, selective, blinkered criticisms of any manager's record.

It's a difficult conversation to have regardless, as different managers have different levels of input at different clubs, and some have none at all. It's made harder when people selectively choose groups of players to use as evidence that a manager is incompetent.

I'm sure Selles isn't at all responsible for some of the dross we signed this summer.

Hecky gets nowhere near enough credit for the job he did here.
He took over a side struggling in the championship and nearly got us into the playoffs.
Then got us promoted the next season.
Then was fucked over in a way which will take some beating (that lineup first day against Palace still haunts me).

Completely agree, he did a great job. We sold out best players and hung him out to dry.

So what you're saying is, they paid an inflated amount for a player showing great potential, who is now looking like fulfilling that potential? (still only 23 years old)
Wolves got ~20 million back for him, whereas we lost our entire investment on Brewster (the player you were comparing him to)

Yes, they paid an inflated amount for a player showing great potential, as did we. Both players massively flopped, failed to make an impact on the pitch and cost their respective clubs tens of millions of pounds. When you compare things, they don't have to be exactly the same in every respect.