Beans’ Words of Wisdom

[Bell4]

This should be compulsory reading before you can comment on the Wilder to Selles transition.

https://www.thepinch.uk/p/the-gamble-making-sense-of-the-chris?utm_medium=web

UTB & FTP

Great

 

[Beans]

This at least makes an attempt at being balanced, despite itself being littered with ill considered takes.

Hamer was the Championship player of the season, but Wilder had him "marooned out on the left all season", is one way of putting it. Another would be that he wasn't POTS at Coventry playing in his "correct" position, nor did he even make the team of the season. Wilder, in this team, playing him on the left in this season, allowed him to shine more than any player in the league.

YMMV on whether you think playing him there got the best out of him or limited him a bit. It's a shorthand for how you feel about last season really; end product was good enough (bar the final game) or the performances left you feeling like there was more in the tank.

Basic numbers but he had 9 goals 7 assists last season; playing in the middle for a Coventry team that got fewer points than we did in 22/23 he had 9 goals 10 assists. We already saw in the Prem how good he can be when playing centrally. If Selles or his next manager keeps him out wide I'll hold my hands up.

 

[AWetFlannel]

YMMV on whether you think playing him there got the best out of him or limited him a bit. It's a shorthand for how you feel about last season really; end product was good enough (bar the final game) or the performances left you feeling like there was more in the tank.

Basic numbers but he had 9 goals 7 assists last season; playing in the middle for a Coventry team that got fewer points than we did in 22/23 he had 9 goals 10 assists. We already saw in the Prem how good he can be when playing centrally. If Selles or his next manager keeps him out wide I'll hold my hands up.

I think this system gave him the freedom to drift, depending on how Selles wants his wide men to play I doubt we'll see him wide again, for example he'd never play as a winger in a 4-3-3.

I imagine we'll not get a chance to see either way, he's surely off. Sorry for the arsey late night comment.

 

[Beans]

I think this system gave him the freedom to drift, depending on how Selles wants his wide men to play I doubt we'll see him wide again, for example he'd never play as a winger in a 4-3-3.

I imagine we'll not get a chance to see either way, he's surely off. Sorry for the arsey late night comment.

Ha no need to apologise! I could well be wrong anyway, just that there have been some other questionable selection choices this season (as I wrote in that article) so I think "Hamer on the left" is at least debatable as to whether it's maximising his ability / value to the team or limiting it.

I think there's a small chance Hamer stays another year - he's 28 now (happy birthday Gus!), doesn't always look like a peak athlete and is under contract so we can presumably demand a fee that might make most clubs baulk a bit - but I may well be wrong about that too

 

[AWetFlannel]

Ha no need to apologise! I could well be wrong anyway, just that there have been some other questionable selection choices this season (as I wrote in that article) so I think "Hamer on the left" is at least debatable as to whether it's maximising his ability / value to the team or limiting it.

I think there's a small chance Hamer stays another year - he's 28 now (happy birthday Gus!), doesn't always look like a peak athlete and is under contract so we can presumably demand a fee that might make most clubs baulk a bit - but I may well be wrong about that too

My tone was arsey and unnecessary, there's just no need.

I agree that we're in a good position regarding our biggest assets, I just assume will pay the £20mill ish we're after. I'm also on board with the Selles appointment regardless and excited either way.

 

[Tony_Kaufman]

If we weren't to sell Hamer this summer then it might be last chance saloon for getting a significant fee due to him being 28. If we do get promoted next season then Gus will be 30 when we're playing in the top flight again. As part of a long term plan to get up there and stay there how big of a role will a 30 year old midfielder play?

The closer he gets to 30 the more his value drops irrespective of how well he plays, particularly when we're in the Championship where we lose part of his true value due to being in this division. In some ways I could handle him being sold and understand it if O'Hare filled his shoes, but he'd need to up his end product to consistently be like it was in the play offs.

I like Hamer and want him to stay and would love to see him thrive in the middle, but I can also see the potential benefits for selling him.

 

[The Crab]

The three better content providers
Bladespod ,the pinch and yesterdays four blades in a pub have been three of the best blades related podcasts since this genre began
all three having very sensible and informative opinions and views on this last week's events

Even Jimmy ramble who is s self confessed wilder apostle is even handedly airing his views and the views of his contributors.

I think this is a fair reflection of the fanbase as a whole with the more emotional ones just needing more time to.come round .

Ive made my views clear I was right behind wilder until he did what he always does and decided to show us punters who knows best and it cost us and him and I couldnt face another season of it

To some, a nuanced view means you are against CW by default. It’s fucking pathetic and if I’m honest a bit MAGA-esque.

 

[Tarqs]

This article taps on some of the points I was trying to make on my 92 point myth thread, but he did a lot better job of it.

Wonder if it'll get the same shit you did

 

[Tarqs]

Ha no need to apologise! I could well be wrong anyway, just that there have been some other questionable selection choices this season (as I wrote in that article) so I think "Hamer on the left" is at least debatable as to whether it's maximising his ability / value to the team or limiting it.

I think there's a small chance Hamer stays another year - he's 28 now (happy birthday Gus!), doesn't always look like a peak athlete and is under contract so we can presumably demand a fee that might make most clubs baulk a bit - but I may well be wrong about that too

The problem having hamer on the left, is that he does drift, which makes you wonder why he's there. He's left wing by teamsheet only, very rarely is he actually positioned there.

Which brings me to the problem. It completely exposes us on the flanks when defending.... it also restricts our options when we're attacking because there's zero width. Wilder team in a nutshell, no balance, no shape and square pegs in round holes.

 

[AWetFlannel]

The problem having hamer on the left, is that he does drift, which makes you wonder why he's there. He's left wing by teamsheet only, very rarely is he actually positioned there.

Which brings me to the problem. It completely exposes us on the flanks when defending.... it also restricts our options when we're attacking because there's zero width. Wilder team in a nutshell, no balance, no shape and square pegs in round holes.

Zero width? Has Burrows not been one of the best left backs this season combining with Hamer and driving into the space he vacates as he drifts?

Plenty of teams have successfully implemented systems that have a wide player drift into central areas, leaving space for the full back to drive into. Creating imbalances against set defences is a common tactic to break them down, rather than players sticking rigidly to their positions.

One minute Wilder is too rigid and doesn't allow attacking players to express themselves, the next he's irresponsible for allowing his most creative player to drift. All tactics have advantages and disadvantages.

 

[Tarqs]

Zero width? Has Burrows not been one of the best left backs this season combining with Hamer and driving into the space he vacates as he drifts?

Plenty of teams have successfully implemented systems that have a wide player drift into central areas, leaving space for the full back to drive into. Creating imbalances against set defences is a common tactic to break them down, rather than players sticking rigidly to their positions.

One minute Wilder is too rigid and doesn't allow attacking players to express themselves, the next he's irresponsible for allowing his most creative player to drift. All tactics have advantages and disadvantages.

The amount of times we play it across the back, to the full backs and it ends up at Burrows, with absolutely nothing ahead of him and no option other than to come back inside to Robinson, is uncountable.

EDIT: Burrows at numerous times this season has been getting pelters and i've basically used the above as my defence of him. He's been hung out to dry very often this season.

 

[AWetFlannel]

The amount of times we play it across the back, to the full backs and it ends up at Burrows, with absolutely nothing ahead of him and no option other than to come back inside to Robinson, is uncountable.

EDIT: Burrows at numerous times this season has been getting pelters and i've basically used the above as my defence of him. He's been hung out to dry very often this season.

The amount of times every team plays it across the back, to a full back and back again is uncountable. You might find it boring and tedious, but it's something virtually every teams plan to do. Too many fans see going backwards in possession as a disaster, when they train to do exactly that.

Burrows has received nothing but praise from what I've seen this season, besides some reasonable criticism of his defensive work in a few games (Leeds away in particular).

 

[Tony_Kaufman]

The amount of times every team plays it across the back, to a full back and back again is uncountable. You might find it boring and tedious, but it's something virtually every teams plan to do. Too many fans see going backwards in possession as a disaster, when they train to do exactly that.

Burrows has received nothing but praise from what I've seen this season, besides some reasonable criticism of his defensive work in a few games (Leeds away in particular).

It can be useful, but when you're looking to counter attack quickly and watch the team pass it across the back whilst the opponents drop back deep in numbers while you faff around playing nice pointless passes, then it's also ineffective.

One of the main reasons our players do it, other than team orders, is the lack of players who keep the ball and run with it. They've so ingrained into this idea of passing football that when they have the ball and no one closing them down, instead of keeping it and running with it, they look to offload it immediately and end up passing backwards or sideways as it's the only passing option that they can see.

 

[Carlton Blade]

This at least makes an attempt at being balanced, despite itself being littered with ill considered takes.

Hamer was the Championship player of the season, but Wilder had him "marooned out on the left all season", is one way of putting it. Another would be that he wasn't POTS at Coventry playing in his "correct" position, nor did he even make the team of the season. Wilder, in this team, playing him on the left in this season, allowed him to shine more than any player in the league.

What could be more subjective than an award based on opinions? There's no objective metric to say Hamer was the best player in the league, or that he was better in 24/25 than 22/23.

His ability to "shine more than any other player in the league" is youf opinion and again, subjective. He didn't win the Sheffield United fans POTS award, for example

 

[AWetFlannel]

It can be useful, but when you're looking to counter attack quickly

But in most games, particularly at home against weaker teams, we weren't planning to do this.

and watch the team pass it across the back whilst the opponents drop back deep in numbers while you faff around playing nice pointless passes, then it's also ineffective.

One of the main reasons our players do it, other than team orders, is the lack of players who keep the ball and run with it. They've so ingrained into this idea of passing football that when they have the ball and no one closing them down, instead of keeping it and running with it, they look to offload it immediately and end up passing backwards or sideways as it's the only passing option that they can see.

It's not just our players that do it though, is it. To describe the style of football which has dominated for the last decade and a half as "ineffective" is just ignorant. Plenty of teams value control of the game over the opportunity to counter attack. We've watched Man City do it for years now, spurning the opportunity to counter attack in favour of passing it around the back "pointlessly".

 

[AWetFlannel]

What could be more subjective than an award based on opinions? There's no objective metric to say Hamer was the best player in the league, or that he was better in 24/25 than 22/23.

His ability to "shine more than any other player in the league" is youf opinion and again, subjective. He didn't win the Sheffield United fans POTS award, for example

I wasn't saying otherwise, but there is no objective metric which proves any player was the best in the league. Beans responded with some other metrics which counter it, it's a matter of opinion.

 

[Carlton Blade]

I wasn't saying otherwise, but there is no objective metric which proves any player was the best in the league. Beans responded with some other metrics which counter it, it's a matter of opinion.

You used subjective opinions to justify why an opinion was 'incorrect', then doubled down with some stuff about "being allowed to shine"

 

[AWetFlannel]

You used subjective opinions to justify why an opinion was 'incorrect', then doubled down with some stuff about "being allowed to shine"

You've put the word incorrect in quotation marks, but I don't think I used the word or anything like it.

Beans described Hamer as being "marooned on the left" and "marginalised", which I called "ill considered". I think him getting voted as POTS suggests that's not true (my opinion), Beans countered with some good stats.

 

[Aston max]

That article is really well written and obviously points out a lot of what a lot of us have been saying and thinking , obviously the "wilderists " will call it out as BS and if it was a actual newspaper peice would end up screwed up in the bin !!
Hopefully this will happen now

 

[dingledog]

Well considered and reasoned arguments, not things seen too often on here. I can identify with it and thank you for posting it. Of course time will tell if the gamble pays off, just as it would have done if there had been no change.