Outgoing? Chris Wilder

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robbiez666 said:
But I'd also argue that none of those are good enough for the top slight. But they'd all still be on our books with likely another 2 years left on their contracts.
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The chances of us signing players now who are good enough for the top flight is miniscule. We'll never get there in the first place is we set out expecting that.
 

alcoblade said:
The chances of us signing players now who are good enough for the top flight is miniscule. We'll never get there in the first place is we set out expecting that.
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But that's the issue isn't it? We could just sign functional players who would give us a good chance of going up but then get thrashed and relegated the season after or we could try and sign players who might need a bit of time but can be developed into better players.

If that's all you want. results in the Championship with the acceptance of losing most games the next season, then it's the way forward.

Ideally, you'd have a mix and have those players on short contracts but free transfers mean 2-3 (likely the latter) year contracts.
 
The flaw in the strategy of signing top championship players who aren't good enough for the PL is the inevitable hefty promotion wage rise in their contracts. Without them, they could just move on easily. But that barely ever happens. They invariably stick around and maybe go out on loan. Joe Worrall will be an example now

It is still the best strategy though. There's nothing stopping you scouting well in advance for possible PL signings if you do go up, as well as loaning players with PL potential who could be made permanent
 
robbiez666 said:
But I'd also argue that none of those are good enough for the top flight. But they'd all still be on our books with likely another 2 years left on their contracts.
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But we need to get there first and they would help massively. Then you cross the next bridge when you come to it , if they are not good enough we sell/release them . We never thought Basham etc would be good enough when we signed them but how wrong we were !!
As ever UTB !
 
Berkshire Blade said:
Jefferson is a bit too old to be lumped in with that bracket of "academy signings"
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There's a difference between the academy and development teams. The development team is allowed to have a limited number of older players in the starting lineup, so that's where he'll fit in as be played for the development side last season.
 
BrayfordsBushyBeard said:
But we need to get there first and they would help massively. Then you cross the next bridge when you come to it , if they are not good enough we sell/release them . We never thought Basham etc would be good enough when we signed them but how wrong we were !!
As ever UTB !
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If you aim to get to the Premier League with a team of 11 players who are too good for the Championship and not good enough for the Premier League then you'd have no chance of staying up as you'd have to sign a brand new starting eleven of players capable of playing at that level. You need to have some players of that calibre at the club already where you then don't need to sign as many in the subsequent summer. The first way is a naive approach and pointless in the long term. It's a very quick short term plan to get us up but won't help us stay up, which is what the new owners want.

I've said it before, this may be a 2 to 3 season project where we will see players come and go in the interim while we build something for the long term. The fans who can't look past results and aren't patient enough for this will cause as much unrest in the stands as those who currently want Wilder gone.
 
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No side that gets promoted has a team and subs all good enough for the premier league, it’s never happened and never will . The next time we go up we won’t either and if you think we will I would have to disagree. IMO you should aim to have a better team than you did the season before whatever league you are in . The above mentioned 3 all improve our team now , which in turn improves our chances of going up and attracting better players . We will sign other players as well as those 3 who will improve us but no way will all our signings be premier league players whether we go up now or in 2-3 years time .
As ever UTB !
 
Thought new owners wanted premiership football, not looking likely anytime soon after this season. We need to get there ASAP because the gap is just going to get bigger and the longer we stay down we will be like west brom and stoke
 
BrayfordsBushyBeard said:
But we need to get there first and they would help massively. Then you cross the next bridge when you come to it , if they are not good enough we sell/release them . We never thought Basham etc would be good enough when we signed them but how wrong we were !!
As ever UTB !
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It doesn't work like that. We don't have the money to buy a Premier League ready team should we go up.

We would just get slaughtered every week again.

You're talking about a team with a unique style and way of playing. The pissed bulldog who manages us doesn't have that any more he has scpre a goal and then defend and hop for the best. Despite having vastly better players than almost every other team.
 
Working Class Hero said:
As fans, I think we should definitely have a preference for proven Championship players (or even top end League One players), than European punts (we can have both!).
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I do not want any "proven Championship players" unless you can find the ones that are not proven Championship players on account of having found their level and hit their peak in terms of both quality, and wages we would expect to pay. Those are exactly the sorts of highly inefficient signings that do not progress the club in the slightest.
 

jt64 said:
I do not want any "proven Championship players" unless you can find the ones that are not proven Championship players on account of having found their level and hit their peak in terms of both quality, and wages we would expect to pay. Those are exactly the sorts of highly inefficient signings that do not progress the club in the slightest.
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But that’s how we’ve always done it and changing anything is frightening.
 
You can bring in "hopefuls" while using a proven method and way and slowly change to a new model which is far easier once/if we achieve promotion than diverting from a set up that has worked pretty well in every championship season we have had since returning to the League from league one. Chucking all that out on a punt is extremely high risk
 
jt64 said:
I do not want any "proven Championship players" unless you can find the ones that are not proven Championship players on account of having found their level and hit their peak in terms of both quality, and wages we would expect to pay. Those are exactly the sorts of highly inefficient signings that do not progress the club in the slightest.
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Those that fell in to that category in our current squad when we signed them are probably Campbell, Moore, O'Hare, Hamer and Robinson (and Burrows and Cooper from League One). Now a couple of them aren't exactly my favourites, but are you saying you'd rather we didn't have any of those players? Clearly that's a better list than what we'd get from trying to find unknown European players.

Yes they'll obviously be more expensive, but you pay for the guarantee they can do it, don't you?

In any case, as I said, we should be able to do both as a big fish in this particular pond.
 
Working Class Hero said:
Those that fell in to that category in our current squad when we signed them are probably Campbell, Moore, O'Hare, Hamer and Robinson (and Burrows and Cooper from League One). Now a couple of them aren't exactly my favourites, but are you saying you'd rather we didn't have any of those players? Clearly that's a better list than what we'd get from trying to find unknown European players.
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The two you list as from League One are clearly young enough to retain the needed upside. I never wanted Moore or Robinson. Campbell just about young enough that he is not at final big contract stage, on a free I'll allow that one. O'Hare has been pretty underwhelming so far and will need to improve a lot in year two to be worth anything like what I guess we are paying in wages. That just leaves Hamer, and while I love him as a player, it is an inconsistent signing given it was made a week and a bit after we had conceded we were being relegated from the Premier League. It made little logical sense to spend big money on a permanent transfer (plus wages) when by the time he becomes a relevant player, you have already spent seven figures in wages and £4m in book value.

The better example is the much linked Jimmy Dunne. Does he make the team immediately better? Probably. Is he a PL level player? No. Will he ever become a PL level player? No. Will he ever sign a bigger contract in terms of wages than he will if he signs for us? No.
 

Working Class Hero said:
Those that fell in to that category in our current squad when we signed them are probably Campbell, Moore, O'Hare, Hamer and Robinson (and Burrows and Cooper from League One). Now a couple of them aren't exactly my favourites, but are you saying you'd rather we didn't have any of those players? Clearly that's a better list than what we'd get from trying to find unknown European players.

Yes they'll obviously be more expensive, but you pay for the guarantee they can do it, don't you?

In any case, as I said, we should be able to do both as a big fish in this particular pond.
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We will only spend after we sell
 
Berkshire Blade said:
We instead have the Wilder who got 90+ points when having to rebuild the squad and for the first half we were really thin on numbers.

Any manager who can improve on that would have to do a bloody good job.
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Berkshire I totally agree with that. However from the owners point of view they came in when we were in second spot and spent a lot of money in the transfer window bringing in players, most of whom barely contributed (BBD, Holding, Clarke) and Cannon who not only didnt contribute but cost £10m. We then faded badly

If you add to that the recurring disciplinary problems, massive fine and negative publicity it's easy to see why they are reviewing their options.

I've no idea what the answer is. If we stick with CW I think we will be thereabouts again but we will also have a manager who doesn't seem cut out for the new approach the owners are looking to adopt and discontent in the stands will be bubbling just under the surface. If we bring a new manager in do we end up with Slav mark 2? A man who wants to play differently but doesn't have the players to do it, unless tje board are planning a overhaul.

Big, big decision and no right answer
 
Berkshire Blade said:
You can bring in "hopefuls" while using a proven method and way and slowly change to a new model which is far easier once/if we achieve promotion than diverting from a set up that has worked pretty well in every championship season we have had since returning to the League from league one. Chucking all that out on a punt is extremely high risk
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I think it's worth noting that signing players by both methods simultaneously can improve both methods. If a player that the theoretical AI model recommended doesn't work out but a player that we signed using more "traditional" methods does work out, what data stands out about the successful player did we miss from the model? If a player we signed using the AI model is successful, what attributes can we scout for that we might have missed before?
 
blades95 said:
I think it's worth noting that signing players by both methods simultaneously can improve both methods. If a player that the theoretical AI model recommended doesn't work out but a player that we signed using more "traditional" methods does work out, what data stands out about the successful player did we miss from the model? If a player we signed using the AI model is successful, what attributes can we scout for that we might have missed before?
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Sure it’s a hibrid of the two approaches
 
FriethBlade said:
Berkshire I totally agree with that. However from the owners point of view they came in when we were in second spot and spent a lot of money in the transfer window bringing in players, most of whom barely contributed (BBD, Holding, Clarke) and Cannon who not only didnt contribute but cost £10m. We then faded badly

If you add to that the recurring disciplinary problems, massive fine and negative publicity it's easy to see why they are reviewing their options.

I've no idea what the answer is. If we stick with CW I think we will be thereabouts again but we will also have a manager who doesn't seem cut out for the new approach the owners are looking to adopt and discontent in the stands will be bubbling just under the surface. If we bring a new manager in do we end up with Slav mark 2? A man who wants to play differently but doesn't have the players to do it, unless tje board are planning a overhaul.

Big, big decision and no right answer
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This is my position also. On balance I am Wilder in, even though I now think his position is pretty much untenable. I had my reservations though which you have pointed out.

I also was concerned how tightly we won a lot of those games last season and would we eek out the same results again playing the same way. I have my doubts.

That said bringing a complete overhaul has undoubted risks too and it could go either way.

I think this is the way we are going though so buckle up and enjoy the ride :oops:
 
Railway Blade said:
This is my position also. On balance I am Wilder in, even though I now think his position is pretty much untenable. I had my reservations though which you have pointed out.

I also was concerned how tightly we won a lot of those games last season and would we eek out the same results again playing the same way. I have my doubts.

That said bringing a complete overhaul has undoubted risks too and it could go either way.

I think this is the way we are going though so buckle up and enjoy the ride :oops:
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It feels like it doesn't it? I guess as new owners if u r going to stamp your own vision on a club now is the time to do it. But if so it needs to happen quickly as the first game of the season is 7 weeks on Saturday.
 
This is a complete and utter joke. It shouldn't take the owners this long to make a decision. It's disrespectful to Wilder who's left in the dark as to where his future lies. They should've had a meeting the day after the playoff final and made a decision there and then. At this point I'm wondering if the owners have been leaking this stuff in hope that Wilder gets pissed off and resigns so they don't have to pay him the compo that comes with sacking him.
 
TomTheBlade1889 said:
This is a complete and utter joke. It shouldn't take the owners this long to make a decision. It's disrespectful to Wilder who's left in the dark as to where his future lies. They should've had a meeting the day after the playoff final and made a decision there and then. At this point I'm wondering if the owners have been leaking this stuff in hope that Wilder gets pissed off and resigns so they don't have to pay him the compo that comes with sacking him.
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Timezones
 

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