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You can’t level one signing at the manager.

The club and the money men have to agree on it…..

But £11 million on a striker who hardly played and when he did was ineffective is not a good signing…

To leave it until the 11th hour and bring in a CB on loan who hadn’t played first team football was a big gamble … and then we didn’t play him.

I’d rather have kept the money and gone with what we had but that’s hindsight …. We needed a CB and didn’t get one … just like arsenal needed a striker and refused to get one …. Net result = same … target for the season not achieved.
I agree totally, by no means am I suggesting he was good signing because I have no evidence to suggest that. I think most scratched there head when he arrived with statistics mainly made of penalties.

Soutar went down on Boxing day against Burnley and we should acted immediately as he was the reason that we didn't concede (although we did that day before he went off).

I think that we are all in agreement that the defence should have been sorted, Wilder though must have thought that Robbo was good enough, I for one don't but I aint the manager.
 

I agree totally, by no means am I suggesting he was good signing because I have no evidence to suggest that. I think most scratched there head when he arrived with statistics mainly made of penalties.

Soutar went down on Boxing day against Burnley and we should acted immediately as he was the reason that we didn't concede (although we did that day before he went off).

I think that we are all in agreement that the defence should have been sorted, Wilder though must have thought that Robbo was good enough, I for one don't but I aint the manager.
You might do a better job
 
I think it's somewhat subjective, which is what makes it so interesting. All managers get things wrong and so criticism is obviously valid at any point, even more so after the PO final.

Are most posts in the last few pages fans explaining how, in their subjective opinion, Holding is better than Robinson? Nah, a solid 50% are saying Holding is better, full stop, and Wilder must be thick, or compromised to be playing him. It must be to make himself look good in some strange way, or because he values pashun over performance, or because he picks favourites for non-footballing reasons.

The most obvious explanation of how we lost when we had it in our hands is that their lad scored a screamer. You can play well, create loads of chances and score, but if their lad smacks in a less than 0.1 xG chances, you lose. Of course valid criticism can me made about every detail (and inevitably will given the gravity of the game), but sometimes the biggest factors are as simple as that.
Holding is a class player. He looks calm and composed on the ball, positional sense is excellent, organises those around him and plays out of defence with passes rather than lumping it. I’d wager that both goals on Saturday may have been stopped by people covering the spaces if he’d been on the pitch.
However, he’s not a shouty, chest thumper who is going to clatter the centre forward - there’s the possible reason for non-selection….
 
is another fine coming I make it day five or is it working days which means has to be today ?

A late submitted retained list in football carries a fixed financial penalty for clubs in the EFL, while Premier League clubs are reported to the Premier League board. The deadline for submitting the list is usually midnight on the third Saturday in May, but those who play beyond that date, like play-off finalists, have four extra days to file
 
Holding is a class player. He looks calm and composed on the ball, positional sense is excellent, organises those around him and plays out of defence with passes rather than lumping it. I’d wager that both goals on Saturday may have been stopped by people covering the spaces if he’d been on the pitch.
However, he’s not a shouty, chest thumper who is going to clatter the centre forward - there’s the possible reason for non-selection….

Said this before, but what I can't understand is, with the clock ticking, and us hanging on to a 1-0 lead, and with Sunderland getting into our half of the pitch more and more, why we didn't put Holding on as well as Robbo and Anel? Three at the back would have made sense to me.
 
IAre most posts in the last few pages fans explaining how, in their subjective opinion, Holding is better than Robinson? Nah, a solid 50% are saying Holding is better, full stop, and Wilder must be thick, or compromised to be playing him.
For me, Holding is more composed on the ball, he’s got a better touch and generally a higher level of technical ability, better short area quickness and has shown to be better positionally, or at least he’s been caught out less. I recognise you weren’t necessarily calling me out here but felt it was just worth laying it out. I just think Holding is clearly the better player. And I strongly suspect the only reason Robinson stayed in the side was due to his role in the squad and the timing of Holding coming in. Ie. Robinson mainly stayed in for non-footballing reasons. But obviously I may be wrong.

Edit: as I was nearly about to hit send I saw CornwallBlade said many similar things
 
Said this before, but what I can't understand is, with the clock ticking, and us hanging on to a 1-0 lead, and with Sunderland getting into our half of the pitch more and more, why we didn't put Holding on as well as Robbo and Anel? Three at the back would have made sense to me.
I think he'd have got hammered by the support if he'd done that and we had lost anyway ( I accept that we may have held on to the 1-0 if he had done that)

The biggest problems for me are why do we not finish teams off when we are well on top and why do we often look to be hanging on in the last 20 mins against the better teams?

What we really need is a second goalscorer who can take some of the burden off Campbell and for Campbell to last 80 mins every game not 60.
 
is another fine coming I make it day five or is it working days which means has to be today ?

A late submitted retained list in football carries a fixed financial penalty for clubs in the EFL, while Premier League clubs are reported to the Premier League board. The deadline for submitting the list is usually midnight on the third Saturday in May, but those who play beyond that date, like play-off finalists, have four extra days to file
They don't actually have to announce it publicly, though it is customary. They can just submit it and wait for 14th June when EFL publish them all, if they like.
 
I CBA to quote all the messages, but posters on this forum have been explicitly saying they hate him all season, with those exact words.

At Bristol City away (where he put in a solid performance), a group of blokes in front of me suddenly became not just angry, but enraged, screaming at Robinson calling him a stupid cunt. Why? Because he fouled someone as a set piece was coming into the box.

I don't remember the game, but seasons ago he confronted a fan during a game at home sat in the family stand, who shouted loads of abuse at him during the game. You're a good poster, but it's absurd to suggest people don't have it in for him.
I don't hate him, i just think he comes across as an absolute cunt of a person and he's a shite footballer
 
I think he'd have got hammered by the support if he'd done that and we had lost anyway ( I accept that we may have held on to the 1-0 if he had done that)

The biggest problems for me are why do we not finish teams off when we are well on top and why do we often look to be hanging on in the last 20 mins against the better teams?

What we really need is a second goalscorer who can take some of the burden off Campbell and for Campbell to last 80 mins every game not 60.
We need a first goalscorer before we need a second one. Campbell was our top scorer in the league with 10. The last time we had a top scorer on less than that in the Champ was in 2011 when Evans got 9, and we went down.

We also need to find a way of getting goals from midfield as well, pretty pathetic return from Souza (0 goals in 34 games), Peck (0 goals 42 games), O'Hare (2 goals in 44 games).
 
What does this tell you then? All the "he picks Robinson because he's his favourite and pashun" is obviously BS given he picked Souttar over him.

Perhaps Holding isn't very good? I know this is impossible for people to consider, but it might be true.
Some of this has been covered already, but I'll chuck my two bob in - it is a forum after all.

It feels somewhat like comparing apples and oranges here. Souttar was signed before the season started. He didn't make a league start until Norwich away on August 24th. Between then, and suffering his injury on Boxing Day, he missed one game (West Brom away, because of his red card vs Sunderland). That's 20 starts, plus a sub appearance vs QPR at home. Of those games, Souttar and Anel started 13 games together. Of those 13, we kept a clean sheet in 8 of them. In an admittedly small sample size, that's a 61.54% clean sheet ratio. Once Wilder had that partnership up and running, it was practically impossible to try and justify breaking it up, because they were so incredibly effective together.

In the 6 games where Robinson stepped in to play with Souttar, we kept 6 clean sheets. I'd argue that based on the degree of success both players enjoyed playing alongside Souttar, that they each were not the key factor in the success of the partnership. As someone else has already mentioned in the thread, the presence of Souttar was a metaphorical "crutch" for both Anel and Robinson - Souttar was such the stronger player, that he caused the other to perform better.

The question then becomes one of why Holding was not allowed the opportunity to do the same? Yes he wasn't fit when he came in, but in 19 matches he was available for us to select him, he made only 4 starts:

1 - Bristol C (H) - subbed off on 77 minutes while 1-0 up. Equaliser conceded after he left the pitch.
2 - Cardiff (H) - clean sheet (2-0 win)
3 - Stoke (A) - clean sheet (2-0 win)
4 - Blackburn (H) - 1-1 draw. Blackburn had to press to try and get in the playoffs, while we had had 3rd place tied up for several weeks. Still looked pretty comfortable.

All the other appearances he made, according to transfermarkt, account for just 77 minutes of football.

The issue at hand is that our central defensive partnership, once Souttar got injured, looked incredibly frail. We became far weaker as a unit without his presence in the defence, and teams looked to take advantage of that a lot more often as a result. Holding came in having a wealth of experience at Premier League level, being comfortable in possession, even when pressured by opposing forwards, and we chose not to utilise that option?

Rather than targeting Robinson, I'll address the CB partnership as a whole. The pairing of Anel-Robinson has, on occasion this season, looked distressingly frail. Neither player was capable/willing to fill the void created by Souttar's departure, and so we were much more easy to exploit as a result.

I can concede, as you have asserted already, that I do not have the luxury of watching the players in training every day. That I do not get as comprehensive an understanding of them as the manager and coaching staff. But I do get to see them on the pitch, week in, week out. And it doesn't take a coaching licence to see that we had the option of a man who has been a Premier League player for almost 10 years, who has won the FA Cup twice, who clearly knows how to operate at a high-quality, high-pressure level, and instead trust a pairing that has often had signs of a rick in it.
 
My only thought as to why Robinson was consistently selected over Holding was down to two things, his long throw and his "pashun". I cannot genuinely think of any other reasons, Holding is better in every single department.

And just how many times have we scored as a result of his long throws? Once maybe? Whatever it does not cancel out his ability to drop a rick in almost every game.

LCB is a priority this summer, we simply cannot start another campaign with Robinson as first choice.
Exactly, he's capable of dropping a bollock anytime in 90mins... and he usually does😔
 
It's a fair comment and I always respect a bit of pedantry.

I've watched football all my life and played Sunday league. I feel I know a lot about football , just not not as much as someone that has spent ALL their life with the game as a career.

Our manager isn't just some bloke who got lucky and happened to get some coaching badges, he's been very successful throughout his management career at one of the highest levels in the world.

I don't see the players in training, I don't know the dynamics of the dressing room, I don't rewatch matches and analyse them, I don't pore over stats. Most of us have a few pints before a game and watch it once.
Managers are better qualified than most fans, yes I agree.

Managers make mistakes, that’s why so many of them lose their jobs every year.

A lot of the fans think Wilder made a huge mistake by constantly picking Robinson over Holding. Maybe the owners would agree…
 

Other than loans and maybe Brewster it's as you were.

Considering last summer the stability can only help but of course sales and incomings will happen

Hackford being in the development squad when his debut was so long ago raised a smile!

 
Pathetic we’re hanging on to those two
Hanging onto which two?

I don't mind us looking at renewing Rhian. He's finally started to show something so I'd prefer us to get something for the daft figure we spent!

Assuming Robinson is the other, we had no choice (though no doubt Wilder would have kept him anyway.)
 
I’d wager that both goals on Saturday may have been stopped by people covering the spaces if he’d been on the pitch.
Can’t remember anyone making this point so I’ll do it. I’ve only watched goals back once because I dont want to. However, the Mayenda goal, ball was on their left side, Burrows appeared to be ball watching and ran over there, ball passed to a now unmarked Mayenda on their right and wrong side of Robinson. First time strike not giving Robinson time to adjust.

Think Burrows was as much to blame leaving Robinson exposed.

Not defending Robinson, Holding should have been on but in the same scenario the outcome might just have been the same.
 
Well that’s boring … everyone is under contract

The two that aren’t … a pint has been made to state Robinson has me the clause … rather than just put him on the under contract list …

Brewster should be let go but I guess they are thinking if they can get a semi decent season from him they might recoup something … I think they are flogging a dead horse the kids brain dead
 
Well that’s boring … everyone is under contract

The two that aren’t … a pint has been made to state Robinson has me the clause … rather than just put him on the under contract list …

Brewster should be let go but I guess they are thinking if they can get a semi decent season from him they might recoup something … I think they are flogging a dead horse the kids brain dead
Yep was always going to be the case. Like u say the emphasis on Robinson triggering the extension is interesting. However if he starts the first game of the season it won't be because he picked himself!!
 
Robby met the appearances criteria. Had Holding been played more he might be gone but Wider made sure.

That’s not a dig at JLT he’s been a great servant but Holding was never given a chance
 
Can’t remember anyone making this point so I’ll do it. I’ve only watched goals back once because I dont want to. However, the Mayenda goal, ball was on their left side, Burrows appeared to be ball watching and ran over there, ball passed to a now unmarked Mayenda on their right and wrong side of Robinson. First time strike not giving Robinson time to adjust.

Think Burrows was as much to blame leaving Robinson exposed.

Not defending Robinson, Holding should have been on but in the same scenario the outcome might just have been the same.
First time strike ?
He could have filled in the times crossword in the time he had to pick.his spot
 
What does this tell you then? All the "he picks Robinson because he's his favourite and pashun" is obviously BS given he picked Souttar over him.

Perhaps Holding isn't very good? I know this is impossible for people to consider, but it might be true.
From the brief times we saw him, Holding was in a different league to Robbo and its not a lower one, IMO.

The basic passing was a massive difference i noticed.
Holdings passes were fizzed at there targets while Robbos got there, eventually.

This speeds play up, if passes are quicker.
 
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Fact that we are apparently in discussions with Brewster kills any speculation about Wilder's future as Manager in the short term.

Like it or not we just all have to 100% back him going into next season. I have my doubts - but let's see where we are al end of Sept after 10 games. I'm absolutely certain that our owners will be doing the same, as the clear objective next season is promotion ( as per their US style corporate statement earlier in the week). Wilder will also know he's in the spotlight to deliver & I am sure he will be backed well in the summer accordingly.
 
Can’t remember anyone making this point so I’ll do it. I’ve only watched goals back once because I dont want to. However, the Mayenda goal, ball was on their left side, Burrows appeared to be ball watching and ran over there, ball passed to a now unmarked Mayenda on their right and wrong side of Robinson. First time strike not giving Robinson time to adjust.

Think Burrows was as much to blame leaving Robinson exposed.

Not defending Robinson, Holding should have been on but in the same scenario the outcome might just have been the same.

No way, Burrows comes inside but Robinson was the one who got caught ball-watching and came inside as well. As soon as Mayenda saw that he peeled off and was in acres of space. Poor defending all round but in that build up play Robinson should have been tighter.
 
Fact that we are apparently in discussions with Brewster kills any speculation about Wilder's future as Manager in the short term.

Like it or not we just all have to 100% back him going into next season. I have my doubts - but let's see where we are al end of Sept after 10 games. I'm absolutely certain that our owners will be doing the same, as the clear objective next season is promotion ( as per their US style corporate statement earlier in the week). Wilder will also know he's in the spotlight to deliver & I am sure he will be backed well in the summer accordingly.
Its the backed well quote that worries me mate , we all know apart from the odd signing wilders made some poor decisions.
 
Some of this has been covered already, but I'll chuck my two bob in - it is a forum after all.

It feels somewhat like comparing apples and oranges here. Souttar was signed before the season started. He didn't make a league start until Norwich away on August 24th. Between then, and suffering his injury on Boxing Day, he missed one game (West Brom away, because of his red card vs Sunderland). That's 20 starts, plus a sub appearance vs QPR at home. Of those games, Souttar and Anel started 13 games together. Of those 13, we kept a clean sheet in 8 of them. In an admittedly small sample size, that's a 61.54% clean sheet ratio. Once Wilder had that partnership up and running, it was practically impossible to try and justify breaking it up, because they were so incredibly effective together.

In the 6 games where Robinson stepped in to play with Souttar, we kept 6 clean sheets. I'd argue that based on the degree of success both players enjoyed playing alongside Souttar, that they each were not the key factor in the success of the partnership. As someone else has already mentioned in the thread, the presence of Souttar was a metaphorical "crutch" for both Anel and Robinson - Souttar was such the stronger player, that he caused the other to perform better.

The question then becomes one of why Holding was not allowed the opportunity to do the same? Yes he wasn't fit when he came in, but in 19 matches he was available for us to select him, he made only 4 starts:

1 - Bristol C (H) - subbed off on 77 minutes while 1-0 up. Equaliser conceded after he left the pitch.
2 - Cardiff (H) - clean sheet (2-0 win)
3 - Stoke (A) - clean sheet (2-0 win)
4 - Blackburn (H) - 1-1 draw. Blackburn had to press to try and get in the playoffs, while we had had 3rd place tied up for several weeks. Still looked pretty comfortable.

All the other appearances he made, according to transfermarkt, account for just 77 minutes of football.

The issue at hand is that our central defensive partnership, once Souttar got injured, looked incredibly frail. We became far weaker as a unit without his presence in the defence, and teams looked to take advantage of that a lot more often as a result. Holding came in having a wealth of experience at Premier League level, being comfortable in possession, even when pressured by opposing forwards, and we chose not to utilise that option?

Rather than targeting Robinson, I'll address the CB partnership as a whole. The pairing of Anel-Robinson has, on occasion this season, looked distressingly frail. Neither player was capable/willing to fill the void created by Souttar's departure, and so we were much more easy to exploit as a result.

I can concede, as you have asserted already, that I do not have the luxury of watching the players in training every day. That I do not get as comprehensive an understanding of them as the manager and coaching staff. But I do get to see them on the pitch, week in, week out. And it doesn't take a coaching licence to see that we had the option of a man who has been a Premier League player for almost 10 years, who has won the FA Cup twice, who clearly knows how to operate at a high-quality, high-pressure level, and instead trust a pairing that has often had signs of a rick in it.
Good post.

I think you exaggerate in parts, "incredibly" and "distressingly frail". It's easy to forget that with Souttar we were record-breaking, astonishingly good. That shouldn't be the bar, and the stats suggested that a fair bit of luck and over performance by the likes of Cooper was involved. Anel and JLT made for a good partnership and performed well, just not quite good enough to outdo the record breaking Burnley or compensate for our relatively meager attack compared to Leeds. I think it's rewriting history to remember JLT and Anel as a terrible partnership.

Holding was presumably not allowed the opportunity to do the same because he isn't as good and had fitness problems. Dean Hammond had plenty of higher level experience, as have numerous players who've arrived at the Lane on their way down and out of favour. He looked decent to me, but nothing like Souttar. Perhaps he would have with more starts, but I doubt it.
 

From the brief times we saw him, Holding was in a different league to Robbo and its not a lower one, IMO.

The basic passing was a massive difference i noticed.
Holdings passes were fizzed at there targets while Robbos got there, eventually.

This speeds play up, if passes are quicker.
Think it's all been said now, but my take on this is that people saw what they wanted to see. (Sorry for the essay).

I remember when we were terrible, but Brayford had come in and was a shining light of hope amongst the shite around him. Everything he did was praised and cheered. Late in one game, me and my dad (and most the crowd) applauded him passing the ball up the touchline to nobody. We looked at each other and laughed when we realised.

JLT is a scapegoat and some fans hate him. Some fans don't hate him personally, but think he's terrible, influenced in part by his error-filled start with us (as the team was declining as a whole) and his "unclassy" manner in possession. I think it's equally viable to see him in the way I do: a promotion winner, the only player with any testicles last season, captain material.

For those that don't like him, every mistake he makes is remarked on, remembered and catalogued. When Souttar got ripped to shreds by Isidor, it was forgotten before full time. When Anel defended terribly at Sunderland away for a goal, JLT's own embarrassing error overshadowed it.

When Holding came in to challenge JLT, everyone watched him carefully. Every average pass was remembered as classy and worthy of applause, every tackle lauded. When he clumsily trod on the ball early on (against Cardiff?) and the opposition wasted the chance, it wasn't mentioned in the matchday thread or any of the post match praise of his performance.
 

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