The disallowed 'goal'

[VictoryBlade]

Did the keeper or players even protest, I was jumping up and down at the time.

Not at all

 

[metalblade]

Offside is correct, that said the keeper was never going to stop that shot even if he had a clear view from the moment Burrows hit it.

 

[thehet]

But he is offside when the ball is struck. He doesn't have to be directly in front of the keeper to impact him. At the other end and you agree.

But I repeat, the only person on the field who knows for sure that he is impacting the keeper is the keeper. The officials deciding it on his behalf is bollocks.

 

[HodgysBrokenThumb]

I have no idea what the protocol with flagging is in this spot where everyone knows VAR is going to check it anyway. I'm more making the point that I'm not exactly old and I can remember the days of "if you're offside, you're offside" and that for the vast majority of the history of football that goal is disallowed.

Danny Blanchflower famously mocked that point of view by saying that if it were true, he would not have any defenders on the line at corners, because the corner taker would always be offside.

 

[Selly]

I have no idea what the protocol with flagging is in this spot where everyone knows VAR is going to check it anyway. I'm more making the point that I'm not exactly old and I can remember the days of "if you're offside, you're offside" and that for the vast majority of the history of football that goal is disallowed.

for the vast majority of the history of football that goal is disallowed immediately.

I entirely agree with you on the offside is offside. I'd far rather it was that simple

 

[jt64]

Danny Blanchflower famously mocked that point of view by saying that if it were true, he would not have any defenders on the line at corners, because the corner taker would always be offside.

Well we still do see it now where they take a short one, the other guy just stops it to let the original taker cross who is then instantly flagged. Can't cure stupid regardless of when

 

[Pintor75]

To my shame, I was watching the game in the pub (something I hardly ever do), and the experience finally convinced me that VAR in its current format is ruining the game, and will only get worse. There is a pretence that there is an objective truth to be found (in many circumstances in a game, there isn’t), and that the more video evidence is analysed, the more likely a ‘correct’ decision is reached (probably true). But reaching these decisions is killing the game for the live spectator, is designed for tv entertainment, and asks the wrong questions. The moment of scoring a goal is the peak emotion of the game, but VAR currently immediately asks ‘How can we find a way of disallowing this goal?’
United players, fans in the pub and ground were celebrating a great goal. Sunderland team and fans were flat. A few (sensible) Wednesdayites in the pub were saying how United were going to win easily. And the casual sports fans commented on a great goal, and went back to talking about golf or motor racing. The commentators on Tv were admiring the goal. And then the word VAR appeared. Blades fans were immediately depressed, convinced a way would be found of disallowing it. The Wednesdayites were surprised, but doubtful there was anything wrong. The casuals became very interested, and watched every detail of every replay. Great for tv, but killing the game for the committed fan. We Blades were all depressed at half-time, as if we were losing. Sunderland were clearly revitalised. And Sky were no longer admiring Burrows’ scoring record at Wembley, but discussing the opinion (not the fact) of whether the goalie’s line of vision was impaired. With a different mindset, they could look at every corner to determine which of the half-dozen players pulling shirts should be penalised, but they are not asked to look at that. The big moment for tv is ‘how can we turn this moment of drama’ into a ‘made for tv discussion’. What next? Each team could have its lawyers pitch side, and have 10 minutes to discuss any decision they don’t like. Combines sport and courtroom drama. Great for the tv viewer, who can open another beer and watch. Terrible for the fans in the stadium. Just because you CAN do something doesn’t mean you should do it. End of rant.

I celebrated like many all the others there, premier league here we come, then, VAR it took the whole emotion of the moment away, right or wrong decision it changed the whole game, I sat down convinced they would come back and of course they did, Brooks could have sealed it ,but not to be, you sensed looking around at our fans they must have felt as deflated as they looked, football can be a cruel game and yesterday it was

 

[jt64]

for the vast majority of the history of football that goal is disallowed immediately.

I entirely agree with you on the offside is offside. I'd far rather it was that simple

Thinking about it, even if there was no VAR in the game I'm not sure that the linesman would have flagged immediately. What I guess he would have done is point out to Kavanagh (he was the ref iirc) that he thinks Vini and anyone else (Campbell?) is in an offside position when the shot is taken. He can tell that, but he can't tell whether either are in a position where they could make a play on the ball, be in the line of sight of the keeper, or anything else that makes them "active". Immediately flagging rather than going "are 21/23 interfering with anything? Yes? Ok" then flag up likely confuses things even further - especially in the event where they weren't interfering

 

[CPB]

Has anyone actually got an angle from the side in terms of how far behind or "offside" Souza was? Would be interested to see.
I've only ever seen from behind the goal which even then it's not exactly him trying to get in the way of the keeper, who is already diving the correct way....

Even if it's "techinically" correct these are not decisions that should happen in football.

VAR needs binning, it doesn't work and it really doesn't work in the PL. Europe seem to have it down better than us and it's still crap there.

 

[CPB]

for the vast majority of the history of football that goal is disallowed immediately.

I entirely agree with you on the offside is offside. I'd far rather it was that simple

No it isn't. It can only be picked up with Video technology as it all happened so fast.

 

[finlaytheblade]

It could have gone either way and the ref took the easy option. If it had been against us I’d have wanted it disallowed though.

If he was offside and interfering with the goalie fair enough without VAR though we would have been 2 up and I beleave we would have gone on to win convincingly

 

[Dellas Cowboys]

It was the correct decision. Fuck VAR.

 

[finlaytheblade]

To my shame, I was watching the game in the pub (something I hardly ever do), and the experience finally convinced me that VAR in its current format is ruining the game, and will only get worse. There is a pretence that there is an objective truth to be found (in many circumstances in a game, there isn’t), and that the more video evidence is analysed, the more likely a ‘correct’ decision is reached (probably true). But reaching these decisions is killing the game for the live spectator, is designed for tv entertainment, and asks the wrong questions. The moment of scoring a goal is the peak emotion of the game, but VAR currently immediately asks ‘How can we find a way of disallowing this goal?’
United players, fans in the pub and ground were celebrating a great goal. Sunderland team and fans were flat. A few (sensible) Wednesdayites in the pub were saying how United were going to win easily. And the casual sports fans commented on a great goal, and went back to talking about golf or motor racing. The commentators on Tv were admiring the goal. And then the word VAR appeared. Blades fans were immediately depressed, convinced a way would be found of disallowing it. The Wednesdayites were surprised, but doubtful there was anything wrong. The casuals became very interested, and watched every detail of every replay. Great for tv, but killing the game for the committed fan. We Blades were all depressed at half-time, as if we were losing. Sunderland were clearly revitalised. And Sky were no longer admiring Burrows’ scoring record at Wembley, but discussing the opinion (not the fact) of whether the goalie’s line of vision was impaired. With a different mindset, they could look at every corner to determine which of the half-dozen players pulling shirts should be penalised, but they are not asked to look at that. The big moment for tv is ‘how can we turn this moment of drama’ into a ‘made for tv discussion’. What next? Each team could have its lawyers pitch side, and have 10 minutes to discuss any decision they don’t like. Combines sport and courtroom drama. Great for the tv viewer, who can open another beer and watch. Terrible for the fans in the stadium. Just because you CAN do something doesn’t mean you should do it. End of rant.

Great post Hodgy ! You are spot on
television drama is what there after and unfortunately we've fallen into the trap of television running the show( pardon ruining it!) With all the money coming into the game and players and agents getting rich on its back.
Leaving most clubs clutching at straws to get a share of it ( premiership).money one of the evils in the world !I could name one or two others but I will stay stu

m about those.
Not normally negative but unfortunately the game has been taken by the aliens namely TV money and VAR.

 

[HodgysBrokenThumb]

No it isn't. It can only be picked up with Video technology as it all happened so fast.

Whether the player is interfering with play, though, remains, an opinion, not a fact. There has to be a point where someone decides on the basis of evidence. At the moment the mindset is ‘Can we find a way of disallowing this goal?’ It would be theoretically possible to go back to a throw-in, and decide it was taken a centimetre from the spot where the ball went out, and disallow any goal which followed. Would that be worth it, in the name of accuracy? We surely want the game to flow as much as possible, and allow referees to make judgments. Nobody seemed to be questioning Burrows goal, but was it worth all that time to find a way of disallowing it, and did they try to find evidence of any shirt-pulling from the corner, in case we should have had a penalty? With a system of one appeal per match, would Sunderland have reviewed that goal? I don’t think the players on the pitch would.

 

[scouseblade]

Unless we get to the final again...



Agree



That's too many IMO.

2 per game, at most. And you have to be specific about what you are challenging for. No challenge and look for anything.

"Player x was offside in the build up"

"Handball by player Y"

Make it for the clanger.

Sorry meant 2/3 per game
If not challenged then play on

View attachment 211822

When Moore flicks it, Souza is probably impeding the goalie's vision, but he is no longer offside...

If that is accurate then they've made a mistake. You can clearly see from that image the Sunderland player (no7) is in line with the keeper. So if Moore touches it, it becomes a new phase? Therefore you have to redraw the lines?

 

[scouseblade]

Last season, for the first time ever, I actually went to more of my local teams northern premier league matches than United matches. I'll never have the passion for them that I do for the Blades but I'll be going there even more next season as football at that level is still the game I fell in love with as a kid.

Im going to Marine next season.

 

[Greenwich Blade]

101st minute by the time he blew the whistle.

And there was way more than 4 minutes delay, I'd wager, in that time.

 

[jt64]

Im going to Marine next season.

Oddly enough, that was where I was at on our last Wembley visit before yesterday

 

[scouseblade]

Oddly enough, that was where I was at on our last Wembley visit before yesterday

They are in NLN, did very well finishing a commendable 16th without a fraction of the budget of a lot of clubs in that league.

 

[ChrisBlade]

I've not got a problem with it being flagged as offside as soon as Burrows shoots. A moment of frustration and then on with the game.

I have got a problem with celebrating wildly, the goal being announced over the tannoy, the scoreboard showing 2v0 and then the sense of dread building over the minutes of the VAR check before it is ruled out.

For me, it's the correct decision, but it's not football as I used to know and love it.

Exactly. VAR destroys the childlike joy you go to the game for. It introduces an alienating feeling. A dread that almost feels like guilt. The ball hits the net, you let go and celebrate. But within seconds your brain interrupts the innocent joy you feel and DESERVE to feel by a thought of „could anything still be wrong here.“

And you don’t even know what it might be…

 

[wadblade]

When the ref was connected to the stadium pa he said SU number 21 was ruled offside due to interfering with the keepers sight of the ball. i.e. Vini

but Vini was stood to the left of their goalie when the ball was struck

 

[wadblade]

You’re right but blocking is still obstruction and hence a foul though isn’t it. That whole area of the game is a complete shambles at the moment.

they were stood onside and made no attempt to block anybody

 

[Trigger Blade]

Im going to Marine next season.

Will you look good in uniform?

 

[Greenwich Blade]

I have a problem. The way I feel today, I am done with football where VAR is concerned, which means I'm done with the Premier League. I'm quite happy to watch it on the telly when United aren't involved because I give few fucks about the teams. So, I should be happy that I'll be watching United in the Championship with no VAR. But what will we be playing for? A place in the Premier League. What, then, is the fucking point?

I'll be honest with you, I'm in a pretty dark place today and feel like I'm at some sort of crossroads.

 

[Rufus Smalls]

So why wasn't he flagged in this one? Even if the linesman knew the goal would be checked he should raise his flag if he believed it to be offside.

If nothing else it puts an immediate pause on the celebrations and avoids the massive letdown (which I don't think the players or the fans fully recovered from).

Playing with VAR really does alter the sport on a fundamental level. It really shouldn't be anywhere near the PO finals.

Exactly what most fans are annoyed with.

Lino’s have zero responsibility at all now on most offsides. It’s all automated to some extent. Or they let play go on only flagging at the last minute if there’s a goal threat on.

 

[scouseblade]

Exactly what most fans are annoyed with.

Lino’s have zero responsibility at all now on most offsides. It’s all automated to some extent. Or they let play go on only flagging at the last minute if there’s a goal threat on.

Hence why they people have now said - do we need them anymore?

 

[CornwallBlade]

they were stood onside and made no attempt to block anybody

I was talking about corners in general, not this incident

 

[CornwallBlade]

but Vini was stood to the left of their goalie when the ball was struck

Yes, between the keeper and the path of the ball - that was the issue. Look, I think its bollocks as no keeper in the world would save that volley. However, VAR provides umpteen opportunities for theoretical interpretation of play to a) bugger up the game for fans and b) “influence” results

 

[Kozzy_is_my_Dad]

State of this.

 

[Selly]

Has anyone actually got an angle from the side in terms of how far behind or "offside" Souza was? Would be interested to see.